Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

How to defend the trinity!

Honesty compels me to offer views that won’t be popular but are based on much study and reflection. As I’ll explain, I don’t describe myself either as a Trinitarian or a non-Trinitarian. My purpose isn't to offend anyone or stir the pot just for the sake of stirring it, but hopefully to offer some food for thought.

The history of the doctrine of the Trinity isn’t pretty. People were killed during the debates. The official church position flip-flopped from Trinitarianism to Arianism for a period. “We all became Arians overnight!” one bishop famously said.

In short, the history of the doctrine is one of long political negotiation, intrigue and even violence. Despite the formulation of the doctrine in the Fourth Century creeds (at the Councils of Nicea and Constantinople), the details weren’t fully settled for hundreds of years after that (and the filioque dispute over whether the Spirit “proceeds” from the Father alone or from both the Father and the Son resulted in the Great Schism of 1054).

One can certainly believe that the Holy Spirit guided and informed this entire process and the final creeds were inspired by God, but the history gives me pause. It looks very much like a high-level version of the squabbling we see on forums such as this and throughout Christendom every day.

Added to this is the reality that this supposedly essential doctrine isn’t clearly set forth in the Bible. If it were, hundreds of years of debates and multiple heresies wouldn’t have occurred. Scholars such as the late Larry Hurtado have shown that the divinity of Jesus was accepted by the very earliest Christians, and Paul’s writings make clear that this was the case from his quotation of early hymns. The struggle that culminated in the doctrine of the Trinity was over what this divinity meant and how Jesus could have been both human and divine.

I'm not saying it's impossible to derive the Trinity from the Bible, so don't start throwing verses at me. I'm saying the doctrine isn't clearly and unequivocally stated, which seems rather odd for what is supposedly such a core doctrine about the very nature of God. It is likewise possible to derive a very different understanding,

The combination of the dubious history and lack of clear biblical authority gives me great pause. Only by blindly accepting the authority and divine inspiration of the Fourth Century creeds could I convince myself that the Trinity was both ontologically true and a Christian essential. Blind acceptance isn’t my notion of faith.

Then there is the doctrine itself – its substance. The doctrine is easily stated in words, as it is in the creeds, but is it even comprehensible or helpful in any meaningful way? I just finished Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview by noted Christian philosophers J. P. Moreland and William Lane Craig, and I found their efforts to make “philosophical sense” of the Incarnation and the Trinity to be unconvincing and almost depressing.

If it is true, the Trinity is a great mystery. It is something we can only accept, not even pretend to understand. Efforts to explain it, to neatly connect the dots, only make it more puzzling and less believable.

To me, the Christian essentials are that (1) Jesus is the Son of God and (2) his incarnation, death and resurrection were sufficient to accomplish God’s purposes. Perhaps Jesus is divine in the same way that the son of a king is royal without being equivalent to the king. I don’t know and don’t believe I need to know. Is it essential to accept the Trinity in order to “believe in Jesus” and what he accomplished? I don’t believe so.

As I’ve matured, both in age and as a Christian, I’ve grown increasingly independent. I’m not going to pretend to believe things just because supposed authorities tell me I must believe them or a majority of other Christians say they believe them. Yes, the Trinity is a well-established part of mainstream Christianity and has been for centuries. Nevertheless, I question its biblical and historical foundations, as well as its intelligibility, usefulness and importance.

I accept that Jesus is the Son of God without pretending to know exactly what this means or how it works. I accept that his incarnation, death and resurrection accomplished God’s plan of salvation without pretending to grasp every nuance. The doctrine of the Trinity may be a fair approximation of who Jesus is or it may simply be a very human attempt to come to grips with an unfathomable mystery. I cannot convince myself that mouthing it like a good little parrot is a Christian essential.

In short, I don’t say the Trinity is true or not true. If someone finds it a useful and helpful way of thinking about God, I don’t say they are wrong. I’m not a non-Trinitarian, but neither can I honestly claim to be a Trinitarian and I'm not convinced I’d be saying anything meaningful if I did. Claiming to be a Trinitarian seems to me to be mostly a litmus test with no real substance.

One of my favorite exercises is to try to identify, at the most basic level and in the most basic language, what seem to me to be the true “Christian essentials.” What do I really have to believe to be a Christian in the eyes of God? For all the above reasons, the Trinity isn’t one of the essentials. But if you think it is, I'm not going to argue with you.
 
People know the meaning of "firstborn" I have explained it times many before but they chose to ignore it.

Interestingly Proverbs chapter eight in the Old Testament features Jesus aka Wisdom, who was there at creation. Read on:

“I (Jesus) was appointed in ages past, at the very first, before the earth began. (24) I was born before the oceans were created before the springs bubbled forth their waters. (25) Before the mountains were formed, before the hills, I was born— (26) before he had made the earth and fields and the first handfuls of soil. (27) I was there when he established the heavens when he drew the horizon on the oceans. (28) I was there when he set the clouds above when he established springs deep in the earth. (29) I was there when he set the limits of the seas, so they would not spread beyond their boundaries. And when he marked off the earth’s foundations, (30) I was the architect at his side. I was his constant delight, rejoicing always in his presence. (31) And how happy I was with the world he created; how I rejoiced with the human family! (32) “And so, my children, listen to me, for all who follow my ways are joyful. (33) Listen to my instruction and be wise. Don’t ignore it. (34) Joyful are those who listen to me, watching for me daily at my gates, waiting for me outside my home! (35) For whoever finds me finds life and receives favor from the LORD. (36) But those who miss me injure themselves. All who hate me love death.” Pro 8:23-36 NLT

Jesus was there at creation.

The chapter begins with wisdom and for those who know, Jesus is the wisdom of God, the power of God, and the knowledge of God.

1Co 1:24 But to those called by God to salvation, both Jews and Gentiles, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Col 2:3 In him (Jesus) lie hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

As Jesus is the wisdom of God, the power of God, and the knowledge of God, I reckon that makes him the pre-incarnate God before He came down from heaven's glory.
I get the distinct impression that He doesn't believe in the preexistence of the Son but believes Jesus was raised immortal but if he answers my questions I'll know for sure. I imagine the meaning of the firstborn of all creation changed after the doctrine of the trinity was formulated. Jesus has always been the Son. I would state Jesus was the craftsman at Gods side not the architect. Everything was made according to the will of the Father and at His command.

The Christ is the most exalted of the Kings of the earth.
Psalm 2

Ask me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You will rule them with a iron scepter
you will dash them to pieces like pottery

I would state God appointed His firstborn to the line of David not make David His firstborn. In that appointment Gods promise of forever is fulfilled.

Psalm 89
And I will appoint him to be my firstborn,
the most exalted of the kings of the earth.
28 I will maintain my love to him forever,
and my covenant with him will never fail.
29 I will establish his line forever,
his throne as long as the heavens endure.
 
People know the meaning of "firstborn" I have explained it times many before but they chose to ignore it.

Interestingly Proverbs chapter eight in the Old Testament features Jesus aka Wisdom, who was there at creation. Read on:

“I (Jesus) was appointed in ages past, at the very first, before the earth began. (24) I was born before the oceans were created before the springs bubbled forth their waters. (25) Before the mountains were formed, before the hills, I was born— (26) before he had made the earth and fields and the first handfuls of soil. (27) I was there when he established the heavens when he drew the horizon on the oceans. (28) I was there when he set the clouds above when he established springs deep in the earth. (29) I was there when he set the limits of the seas, so they would not spread beyond their boundaries. And when he marked off the earth’s foundations, (30) I was the architect at his side. I was his constant delight, rejoicing always in his presence. (31) And how happy I was with the world he created; how I rejoiced with the human family! (32) “And so, my children, listen to me, for all who follow my ways are joyful. (33) Listen to my instruction and be wise. Don’t ignore it. (34) Joyful are those who listen to me, watching for me daily at my gates, waiting for me outside my home! (35) For whoever finds me finds life and receives favor from the LORD. (36) But those who miss me injure themselves. All who hate me love death.” Pro 8:23-36 NLT

Jesus was there at creation.

The chapter begins with wisdom and for those who know, Jesus is the wisdom of God, the power of God, and the knowledge of God.


1Co 1:24 But to those called by God to salvation, both Jews and Gentiles, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Col 2:3 In him (Jesus) lie hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

As Jesus is the wisdom of God, the power of God, and the knowledge of God, I reckon that makes him the pre-incarnate God before He came down from heaven's glory.
You are mistaken...

Jesus had to grow in wisdom... Thus He is not the
the wisdom of God, the power of God, and or the knowledge of God

Luk 2:40 The Child continued to grow and become strong, increasing in wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him.
Luk 2:52 And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.


Mark 13:32: "No one knows the day or hour, not even the angels in Heaven nor the Son, but ONLY the Father."

This is a very conclusive statement. Jesus admits that he does not know the day or hour, and that ONLY the Father knows. This alone is enough to show us that Jesus is not omniscient.

Luke 8:45: "Jesus then asked, ‘Who touched me?"

This episode is about a woman who needs healing who touches Jesus in a crowd. Jesus responds by saying, "Who touched me?" It is obvious that he does not know who touched him. We cannot say that he knew but was just asking for whatever reason. This would be to speculate on a grand scale. It would be adding to what the Bible says. Just read the Bible. He did not know. He is not all knowing.

Revelation 1:1: "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show his servants what must happen soon."

Who received a revelation? Jesus Christ. Who gave it to him? GOD! God gave Jesus a revelation to show his servants what must happen soon. Vines Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words defines revelation as:

Revelation – The communication of the knowledge of God.

(Webster’s Dictionary) Revelation – God’s disclosure to humanity of Himself.

Jesus received a communication, a disclosure FROM GOD. God knew something that Jesus did not know.

John 12:49: "For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it."

In this verse the Father is showing Jesus how to say something. Why does Jesus need to be shown how to do or say anything if he is already all knowing. Not to mention the fact that the Father is commanding the Son. This is not equality.

Again,
Luke 2:52: "And Jesus advanced in wisdom and age and favor before God and man."

He advanced in what? Wisdom. He was advancing in the knowledge of God. Someone who is all knowing does not need to advance in anything, especially wisdom.

Matthew 4:1: "Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert."

Why does Jesus need to be led? He is supposed to be equal with the Holy Spirit. He should know everything that the Spirit knows, although it is obvious that he does not. He needed to be led.

Matthew 26:39: "He advanced a little and fell prostrate in prayer, saying, ‘My Father if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; yet, not as I will, but as you will".

I will not go in depth into the fact that Jesus’will is not the same as the Father’s will, but do notice it.

Back to the original topic. Jesus knew that the cross awaited him and he wanted to see if there was any other way while still remaining in the will of God.

Jesus is asking the Father a question that he does not know the answer to. What does Jesus want to know? IF IT IS POSSIBLE? He does not know if it is. Someone who is asking another a question for which he does not have the answer to is not all knowing.

Conclusion From the Scriptures above I do not see any way in which someone can conclude that Jesus is the wisdom of God, the power of God, and the knowledge of God. Jesus knew many things, but he also did not know many things. This is not what being omniscient means. It means knowing EVERYTHING. Jesus is not omniscient and thus he is not equal to God. Who is Jesus then? Jesus is The Messiah, The Anointed one of God. This is what Messiah means, Anointed. The Messiah was never supposed to be God, he is supposed to be a man anointed by God’s Spirit. In order to understand who Jesus is we must first come to a good understanding of what Jesus’ most important title of Messiah means in depth. After all, he is Jesus the Christ (Messiah).

Hope this helps clear up your misunderstanding.
Paul
 
You are mistaken...

Jesus had to grow in wisdom... Thus He is not the
the wisdom of God, the power of God, and or the knowledge of God

Luk 2:40 The Child continued to grow and become strong, increasing in wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him.
Luk 2:52 And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.



Mark 13:32: "No one knows the day or hour, not even the angels in Heaven nor the Son, but ONLY the Father."

This is a very conclusive statement. Jesus admits that he does not know the day or hour, and that ONLY the Father knows. This alone is enough to show us that Jesus is not omniscient.

Luke 8:45: "Jesus then asked, ‘Who touched me?"

This episode is about a woman who needs healing who touches Jesus in a crowd. Jesus responds by saying, "Who touched me?" It is obvious that he does not know who touched him. We cannot say that he knew but was just asking for whatever reason. This would be to speculate on a grand scale. It would be adding to what the Bible says. Just read the Bible. He did not know. He is not all knowing.

Revelation 1:1: "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show his servants what must happen soon."

Who received a revelation? Jesus Christ. Who gave it to him? GOD! God gave Jesus a revelation to show his servants what must happen soon. Vines Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words defines revelation as:

Revelation – The communication of the knowledge of God.

(Webster’s Dictionary) Revelation – God’s disclosure to humanity of Himself.

Jesus received a communication, a disclosure FROM GOD. God knew something that Jesus did not know.

John 12:49: "For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it."

In this verse the Father is showing Jesus how to say something. Why does Jesus need to be shown how to do or say anything if he is already all knowing. Not to mention the fact that the Father is commanding the Son. This is not equality.

Again,
Luke 2:52: "And Jesus advanced in wisdom and age and favor before God and man."

He advanced in what? Wisdom. He was advancing in the knowledge of God. Someone who is all knowing does not need to advance in anything, especially wisdom.

Matthew 4:1: "Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert."

Why does Jesus need to be led? He is supposed to be equal with the Holy Spirit. He should know everything that the Spirit knows, although it is obvious that he does not. He needed to be led.

Matthew 26:39: "He advanced a little and fell prostrate in prayer, saying, ‘My Father if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; yet, not as I will, but as you will".

I will not go in depth into the fact that Jesus’will is not the same as the Father’s will, but do notice it.

Back to the original topic. Jesus knew that the cross awaited him and he wanted to see if there was any other way while still remaining in the will of God.

Jesus is asking the Father a question that he does not know the answer to. What does Jesus want to know? IF IT IS POSSIBLE? He does not know if it is. Someone who is asking another a question for which he does not have the answer to is not all knowing.

Conclusion From the Scriptures above I do not see any way in which someone can conclude that Jesus is the wisdom of God, the power of God, and the knowledge of God. Jesus knew many things, but he also did not know many things. This is not what being omniscient means. It means knowing EVERYTHING. Jesus is not omniscient and thus he is not equal to God. Who is Jesus then? Jesus is The Messiah, The Anointed one of God. This is what Messiah means, Anointed. The Messiah was never supposed to be God, he is supposed to be a man anointed by God’s Spirit. In order to understand who Jesus is we must first come to a good understanding of what Jesus’ most important title of Messiah means in depth. After all, he is Jesus the Christ (Messiah).

Hope this helps clear up your misunderstanding.
Paul
JESUS is the wisdom of God, the power of God, the knowledge of God, and the I AM on earth.
THE BIBLE TELLS US SO.

And you are not going to tell me different.
.
 
Last edited:
You are mistaken...

Jesus had to grow in wisdom... Thus He is not the
the wisdom of God, the power of God, and or the knowledge of God

Luk 2:40 The Child continued to grow and become strong, increasing in wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him.
Luk 2:52 And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.



Mark 13:32: "No one knows the day or hour, not even the angels in Heaven nor the Son, but ONLY the Father."

This is a very conclusive statement. Jesus admits that he does not know the day or hour, and that ONLY the Father knows. This alone is enough to show us that Jesus is not omniscient.

Luke 8:45: "Jesus then asked, ‘Who touched me?"

This episode is about a woman who needs healing who touches Jesus in a crowd. Jesus responds by saying, "Who touched me?" It is obvious that he does not know who touched him. We cannot say that he knew but was just asking for whatever reason. This would be to speculate on a grand scale. It would be adding to what the Bible says. Just read the Bible. He did not know. He is not all knowing.

Revelation 1:1: "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show his servants what must happen soon."

Who received a revelation? Jesus Christ. Who gave it to him? GOD! God gave Jesus a revelation to show his servants what must happen soon. Vines Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words defines revelation as:

Revelation – The communication of the knowledge of God.

(Webster’s Dictionary) Revelation – God’s disclosure to humanity of Himself.

Jesus received a communication, a disclosure FROM GOD. God knew something that Jesus did not know.

John 12:49: "For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it."

In this verse the Father is showing Jesus how to say something. Why does Jesus need to be shown how to do or say anything if he is already all knowing. Not to mention the fact that the Father is commanding the Son. This is not equality.

Again,
Luke 2:52: "And Jesus advanced in wisdom and age and favor before God and man."

He advanced in what? Wisdom. He was advancing in the knowledge of God. Someone who is all knowing does not need to advance in anything, especially wisdom.

Matthew 4:1: "Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert."

Why does Jesus need to be led? He is supposed to be equal with the Holy Spirit. He should know everything that the Spirit knows, although it is obvious that he does not. He needed to be led.

Matthew 26:39: "He advanced a little and fell prostrate in prayer, saying, ‘My Father if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; yet, not as I will, but as you will".

I will not go in depth into the fact that Jesus’will is not the same as the Father’s will, but do notice it.

Back to the original topic. Jesus knew that the cross awaited him and he wanted to see if there was any other way while still remaining in the will of God.

Jesus is asking the Father a question that he does not know the answer to. What does Jesus want to know? IF IT IS POSSIBLE? He does not know if it is. Someone who is asking another a question for which he does not have the answer to is not all knowing.

Conclusion From the Scriptures above I do not see any way in which someone can conclude that Jesus is the wisdom of God, the power of God, and the knowledge of God. Jesus knew many things, but he also did not know many things. This is not what being omniscient means. It means knowing EVERYTHING. Jesus is not omniscient and thus he is not equal to God. Who is Jesus then? Jesus is The Messiah, The Anointed one of God. This is what Messiah means, Anointed. The Messiah was never supposed to be God, he is supposed to be a man anointed by God’s Spirit. In order to understand who Jesus is we must first come to a good understanding of what Jesus’ most important title of Messiah means in depth. After all, he is Jesus the Christ (Messiah).

Hope this helps clear up your misunderstanding.
Paul
Still waiting
Who do you state Jesus was before the world began? Do you believe in that Jesus? You seem 100% focused on telling me Jesus is not God. So who was He to you? Does He have a beginning? If so when is that beginning to you?
 
You have done nothing but post one liners... You have utterly failed your Pastor and your Beliefs.... As I proved! How can you continue to post ... when you don't have anything to say???
That's plainly false. Go back through the thread and see how much I have posted. I have posted a fair bit to you as well but you have largely ignored it all. I'm not going to keep reposting things I have already posted at length about. If you're unwilling to go back and read, that's on you.

Your a pretender.... You only repeat what you hear... but cannot defend your own beliefs!
Again, another false claim. Just because someone believes differently than you doesn't mean they only repeat what they hear or cannot defend their beliefs.

SO FREE.... FOR ALL TO SEE.... TELL ALL TO BEHOLD.... HOW CAN JESUS BE GOD.... and THEN PRAY and WORSHIP HIS GOD???

Isaiah 44:6 - "Thus says the LORD... there is no God but me."

Isaiah 45:5 - "I am the LORD and there is no other, there is no God besides me."

Isaiah 45:6 - "Men may know that there is none besides me. I am the LORD, there is no other."
These verses agree with the doctrine of the Trinity. The problem is, you're looking for a one-liner from the Bible, but true and proper biblical understanding is never about one verse. It's about the whole revelation, taking everything that is relevant into account.

Jesus, as the Son, the second person of the Trinity, came down and took on the form of man, humbling himself and becoming obedient to the Father, even to the point of death. The Father was still in heaven, so Jesus, as both God and man, could pray and worship God. Since there is only one God, and the Trinity is monotheistic, then Jesus, as God in human flesh, rightly points his followers to the Father in heaven. But in no way is that a denial of his own deity.

" (John 8:40) "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

Jesus is Talking about THIS GOD!!!! ... "I am the LORD and there is no other, there is no God besides me."
And, yet, you ignore context, the immediate context, the greater context of John, and the greater context of Scripture. Look at what Jesus says just 18 verses later: Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

This fits with John 1:1-3, 18, among many other verses.

YOU can let go of your Spiritual ankles.... YOUR BIBLICAL SPANKING is Complete!!!
Paul
This is a rather spiritually proud comment. You haven't even shown that you have a basic understanding of the doctrine of the Trinity. This is why you post things that prove the foundations of the Trinity to be true but think you're proving the Trinity false. And it becomes even more apparent when I respond with a long post to you and you ignore it.
 
You need to pay attention to the verses you quote...


Christ the First-born of all the creation


The word “first-born” comes to the New Testament with a rich Hebrew heritage. The Hebrews had a custom of conferring special birthright privileges on their oldest sons. The eldest son of a father would receive the double portion of the family's inheritance. The well-known story of Jacob tricking his father Isaac into conferring on him - rather than on the first-born-Esau all the family blessing is typical of this culture (Gen 27:32). There is a deeper nuance to the meaning of this word “first-born.” The Greek word for “first” can mean either a first in time or first in status, regardless of birth position. The “first-born” may designate one who is given the honor of chief rank, that is, the first place. This usage can also be found in the Hebrew Bible, as when Jacob summons his son to bequeath his patriarchal blessing on them, he designates Reuben as “my first-born”… preeminent in dignity and preeminent in power. (Gen 49:3)

Although Reubin is “first-born” in time, the prominent idea is his status in dignity. This is clearly the meaning in Jeremiah 31:9 where God calls Ephraim his “first-born” even though Ephraim’s brother, Manasseh, was the elder of the two. Or when God calls Israel his first-born son in Exodus 4:22 and commands Pharaoh to “let my son go that he may worship me.” (v.23) The concept has to do with Israel's precedence in importance over Egypt as far as God's plans were concerned. The classic instance of this idea of pre-eminence of rank is in the Messianic Psalms 89 where God, in glowing words, speaks of the coming promise Davidic king, the Lord Messiah:

Psa 89:26 He shall cry to me, 'You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.' 27 And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth. 28 My steadfast love I will keep for him forever, and my covenant will stand firm for him. 29 I will establish his offspring forever and his throne as the days of the heavens.

In the spirit of prophecy, God announces that this king’s superior position is a matter of appointment, not the time of birth. Furthermore, God makes his appointed king "the highest [in status and rank] of the kings of the earth." Thus, when the apostle applies the term “first-born” to the son of God in Colossians 1, he is using a well-known OT Messianic description. In fact, the expression is repeated a few verses later, where Paul writes, “He is also head of the body, the church; and he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead” (v.18). The different qualifier here is noteworthy. Whereas in verse 15 the Son is the “first-born” of all creation,” here the Son is the "first-born from the dead.” If we take into account the Hebrew literary style of parallelism, where the same idea is repeated but in slightly modified form, it is quite reasonable to suggest that the qualifiers "of all creation" and "from the dead" means the same thing.

The thought is clearly that Jesus the son of God is the first man of God's new creation, because he is the first man ever to be raised to immortality. Christ returned is the beginning of the eschatological resurrection. His resurrection is the promise and the guarantee that God's new order of reality has begun. The church is that new community in prospect. This confirms that the subject matter under discussion is not the Genesis creation of the heavens and the earth, but rather the creation of the church, the body of believers who constitute God's new humanity, the New Man(kind). For this reason, he is the beginning (arche which has an ambivalence, and can mean either the ruler or chief, or origin or beginning, v. 18) Either way, Jesus as the first-raised from the dead is the origin of God's new creation, and he is in consequence of this priority and resurrection also the highest in rank "so that he himself might come to have first place in everything" (v.18). However, whether we take the term firstborn to mean first in relation to time or first in relation to rank, this much is at least clear, that taken in its natural sense, the expression and firstborn excludes the notion of an uncreated, eternal being.
To be born requires a beginning. In order to verify our findings so far, we must look at the second part of the phrase that the son is "the first-born of all creation."

Mark 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
Its clear to me you don't believe in the pre-existence of the Son as one who came down from heaven and ascended to where He was before. Because then you would have to deal with who He was before the world began. Your evasive and won't state your beliefs in that matter so far as I have asked you. John, Hebrews 1 and Paul are very clear that the creation God made was made in Him, through Him, by Him, and for Him. Jesus testified He was before Abraham. That HE came down from heaven and spoke of glory He had with the Father before the world began. John testified no one has seen God except Jesus who came from Gods presence. That Jesus was the eternal life with the Father from the beginning that appeared to them that they saw ,heard and touched. John the Baptist spoke of the one who comes from above that speaks the words from above for God gave the Spirit without limit. (Col 1:19).

The word became flesh.
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, my God.’

I am assuming you are a biblical unitarian from your theological beliefs.
 
Its clear to me you don't believe in the pre-existence of the Son as one who came down from heaven and ascended to where He was before. Because then you would have to deal with who He was before the world began. Your evasive and won't state your beliefs in that matter so far as I have asked you. John, Hebrews 1 and Paul are very clear that the creation God made was made in Him, through Him, by Him, and for Him. Jesus testified He was before Abraham. That HE came down from heaven and spoke of glory He had with the Father before the world began. John testified no one has seen God except Jesus who came from Gods presence. That Jesus was the eternal life with the Father from the beginning that appeared to them that they saw ,heard and touched. John the Baptist spoke of the one who comes from above that speaks the words from above for God gave the Spirit without limit. (Col 1:19).

The word became flesh.
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, my God.’

I am assuming you are a biblical unitarian from your theological beliefs.
 
Still waiting
Who do you state Jesus was before the world began? Do you believe in that Jesus? You seem 100% focused on telling me Jesus is not God. So who was He to you? Does He have a beginning? If so when is that beginning to you?
Your so focused on Jesus has having a beginning... You fail to see that Jesus has a God!

So... In your understanding can.... Jesus have a God??? It's simple... can God have a God??

Common sense tells us NO!!! Yet you... see no problem with this in your beliefs!!

Randy.... Jesus the Messiah/Christ has a GOD!!

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him

Joh 20:17
Jesus *said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"

Not just a Father... but a God... Just like you... A God and Father!

Joh 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten (G3439) Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

G3439
μονογενής
monogenēs
mon-og-en-ace
From G3441 and G1096; only born, that is, sole: - only (begotten, child).

Act 13:33 that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, 'YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN (G3439) YOU.'

Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels did He ever say, "YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"? And again, "I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME"?

Seems Jesus is Begotten... Just like you!

Believe Jesus....


Mat 8:9 "For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, 'Go!' and he goes, and to another, 'Come!' and he comes, and to my slave, 'Do this!' and he does it."
Mat 8:10 Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who were following, "Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel.

Joh 8:40 "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--

Scripture does not contradict!!! If your beliefs don't agree with scripture... Then... Your wrong!!!

Paul
 
JESUS is the wisdom of God, the power of God, the knowledge of God, and the I AM on earth.
THE BIBLE TELLS US SO.

And you are not going to tell me different.
.
The Scripture I posted already did...

Jesus had to grow in wisdom... Thus He is not the the wisdom of God, the power of God, and or the knowledge of God

Luk 2:40 The Child continued to grow and become strong, increasing in wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him.
Luk 2:52 And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.



Mark 13:32: "No one knows the day or hour, not even the angels in Heaven nor the Son, but ONLY the Father."

This is a very conclusive statement. Jesus admits that he does not know the day or hour, and that ONLY the Father knows. This alone is enough to show us that Jesus is not omniscient.

Luke 8:45: "Jesus then asked, ‘Who touched me?"

This episode is about a woman who needs healing who touches Jesus in a crowd. Jesus responds by saying, "Who touched me?" It is obvious that he does not know who touched him. We cannot say that he knew but was just asking for whatever reason. This would be to speculate on a grand scale. It would be adding to what the Bible says. Just read the Bible. He did not know. He is not all knowing.

Revelation 1:1: "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show his servants what must happen soon."

Who received a revelation? Jesus Christ. Who gave it to him? GOD! God gave Jesus a revelation to show his servants what must happen soon. Vines Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words defines revelation as:

Revelation – The communication of the knowledge of God.

(Webster’s Dictionary) Revelation – God’s disclosure to humanity of Himself.

Jesus received a communication, a disclosure FROM GOD. God knew something that Jesus did not know.

John 12:49: "For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it."

In this verse the Father is showing Jesus how to say something. Why does Jesus need to be shown how to do or say anything if he is already all knowing. Not to mention the fact that the Father is commanding the Son. This is not equality.

Again,
Luke 2:52: "And Jesus advanced in wisdom and age and favor before God and man."

He advanced in what? Wisdom. He was advancing in the knowledge of God. Someone who is all knowing does not need to advance in anything, especially wisdom.

Matthew 4:1: "Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert."

Why does Jesus need to be led? He is supposed to be equal with the Holy Spirit. He should know everything that the Spirit knows, although it is obvious that he does not. He needed to be led.

Matthew 26:39: "He advanced a little and fell prostrate in prayer, saying, ‘My Father if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; yet, not as I will, but as you will".

I will not go in depth into the fact that Jesus’will is not the same as the Father’s will, but do notice it.

Back to the original topic. Jesus knew that the cross awaited him and he wanted to see if there was any other way while still remaining in the will of God.

Jesus is asking the Father a question that he does not know the answer to. What does Jesus want to know? IF IT IS POSSIBLE? He does not know if it is. Someone who is asking another a question for which he does not have the answer to is not all knowing.

Conclusion From the Scriptures above I do not see any way in which someone can conclude that Jesus is the wisdom of God, the power of God, and the knowledge of God. Jesus knew many things, but he also did not know many things. This is not what being omniscient means. It means knowing EVERYTHING. Jesus is not omniscient and thus he is not equal to God. Who is Jesus then? Jesus is The Messiah, The Anointed one of God. This is what Messiah means, Anointed. The Messiah was never supposed to be God, he is supposed to be a man anointed by God’s Spirit. In order to understand who Jesus is we must first come to a good understanding of what Jesus’ most important title of Messiah means in depth. After all, he is Jesus the Christ (Messiah).

Hope this helps clear up your misunderstanding.
Paul
 
The Scripture I posted already did...

Jesus had to grow in wisdom... Thus He is not the the wisdom of God, the power of God, and or the knowledge of God

Luk 2:40 The Child continued to grow and become strong, increasing in wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him.
Luk 2:52 And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.



Mark 13:32: "No one knows the day or hour, not even the angels in Heaven nor the Son, but ONLY the Father."

This is a very conclusive statement. Jesus admits that he does not know the day or hour, and that ONLY the Father knows. This alone is enough to show us that Jesus is not omniscient.

Luke 8:45: "Jesus then asked, ‘Who touched me?"

This episode is about a woman who needs healing who touches Jesus in a crowd. Jesus responds by saying, "Who touched me?" It is obvious that he does not know who touched him. We cannot say that he knew but was just asking for whatever reason. This would be to speculate on a grand scale. It would be adding to what the Bible says. Just read the Bible. He did not know. He is not all knowing.

Revelation 1:1: "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show his servants what must happen soon."

Who received a revelation? Jesus Christ. Who gave it to him? GOD! God gave Jesus a revelation to show his servants what must happen soon. Vines Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words defines revelation as:

Revelation – The communication of the knowledge of God.

(Webster’s Dictionary) Revelation – God’s disclosure to humanity of Himself.

Jesus received a communication, a disclosure FROM GOD. God knew something that Jesus did not know.

John 12:49: "For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it."

In this verse the Father is showing Jesus how to say something. Why does Jesus need to be shown how to do or say anything if he is already all knowing. Not to mention the fact that the Father is commanding the Son. This is not equality.

Again,
Luke 2:52: "And Jesus advanced in wisdom and age and favor before God and man."

He advanced in what? Wisdom. He was advancing in the knowledge of God. Someone who is all knowing does not need to advance in anything, especially wisdom.

Matthew 4:1: "Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert."

Why does Jesus need to be led? He is supposed to be equal with the Holy Spirit. He should know everything that the Spirit knows, although it is obvious that he does not. He needed to be led.

Matthew 26:39: "He advanced a little and fell prostrate in prayer, saying, ‘My Father if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; yet, not as I will, but as you will".

I will not go in depth into the fact that Jesus’will is not the same as the Father’s will, but do notice it.

Back to the original topic. Jesus knew that the cross awaited him and he wanted to see if there was any other way while still remaining in the will of God.

Jesus is asking the Father a question that he does not know the answer to. What does Jesus want to know? IF IT IS POSSIBLE? He does not know if it is. Someone who is asking another a question for which he does not have the answer to is not all knowing.

Conclusion From the Scriptures above I do not see any way in which someone can conclude that Jesus is the wisdom of God, the power of God, and the knowledge of God. Jesus knew many things, but he also did not know many things. This is not what being omniscient means. It means knowing EVERYTHING. Jesus is not omniscient and thus he is not equal to God. Who is Jesus then? Jesus is The Messiah, The Anointed one of God. This is what Messiah means, Anointed. The Messiah was never supposed to be God, he is supposed to be a man anointed by God’s Spirit. In order to understand who Jesus is we must first come to a good understanding of what Jesus’ most important title of Messiah means in depth. After all, he is Jesus the Christ (Messiah).

Hope this helps clear up your misunderstanding.
Paul
You are making the same mistake everyone makes by forgetting Jesus had a beginning before his coming among us. There are many scripters and 1 Timothy 3:16 tell us, “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”

Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, and in 1Col 1:24 we read Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Furthermore, we read in Colossians chapter 2 verse 3, “In him (Christ) are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.”

The Old Testament tells us more about Jesus in Proverbs 8:23-31.
(23) I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
(24) When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
(25) Before the mountains were settled, before the hills were, I brought forth:
(26) While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
(27) When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
(28) When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
(29) When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
(30) Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

(31) Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth, and my delights were with the sons of men.

1 Colossians 1:24 tells us “But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.”

In the next chapter Colossians 2:2-3 we read, “That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Praise his Holy name.
 
Last edited:
You are making the same mistake everyone makes by forgetting Jesus had a beginning before his coming among us. There are many scripters and 1 Timothy 3:16 tell us, “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”

Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, and in 1Col 1:24 we read Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Furthermore, we read in Colossians chapter 2 verse 3, “In him (Christ) are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.”

The Old Testament tells us more about Jesus in Proverbs 8:23-31.
(23) I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
(24) When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
(25) Before the mountains were settled, before the hills were, I brought forth:
(26) While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
(27) When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
(28) When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
(29) When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
(30) Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

(31) Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth, and my delights were with the sons of men.

1 Colossians 1:24 tells us “But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.”

In the next chapter Colossians 2:2-3 we read, “That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Praise his Holy name.

It's not a Mystery.... Peter tells you at the very beginning of the foundation of the Church of Jesus the Christ at Pentacost.....

Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--

So Cooper... read ACT 2:22
Who performed the miracles and wonders and signs...

1. Jesus
2. God through Jesus

If you answered 1... You need to read ACT 2:22 again!!!

Let's try another verse....

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him

So Cooper... read Rev 1:1
Who gave Jesus His Revelation?
1. Jesus Himself
2. God


You getting the picture here?? Yea... you need more...

(John 8:40) "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

So Cooper... read John 8:40
Who does Jesus say he is.... in John 8:40

1. Third member of the Trinity
2. A Man whom told you the truth which He heard from God

Yep... you still choose 1... not suprised!

Paul tell us in 1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through (dia) whom we exist.

Always God the Father is the source and origin of all works, deeds and salvation which come to us through the mediatorship of his son. From Him comes all to us through our Lord Jesus Christ so that to God the Father made all the praise be directed. The Father is the sole origin and Creator of "all things." In contrast, Jesus is the Father's commissioned Lord Messiah through whom God's plan for the world is coming to completion. The whole Bible from cover to cover categorically states that God created the universe and all the ages with Jesus Christ at the center of his eternal purpose. Jesus is the diameter running all the way through. “The world was made through him,” i.e. with Christ in mind.

So Cooper... read John Act 17:30

Act 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He ( God) has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."



Pay attention Cooper.... I'm about to show you the KNOWLEDGE of eternal life!!!


Joh 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.


Do you see the truth...?
Paul
 
It's not a Mystery.... Peter tells you at the very beginning of the foundation of the Church of Jesus the Christ at Pentacost.....

Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--

So Cooper... read ACT 2:22
Who performed the miracles and wonders and signs...

1. Jesus
2. God through Jesus

If you answered 1... You need to read ACT 2:22 again!!!

Let's try another verse....

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him

So Cooper... read Rev 1:1
Who gave Jesus His Revelation?
1. Jesus Himself
2. God


You getting the picture here?? Yea... you need more...

(John 8:40) "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

So Cooper... read John 8:40
Who does Jesus say he is.... in John 8:40

1. Third member of the Trinity
2. A Man whom told you the truth which He heard from God

Yep... you still choose 1... not suprised!

Paul tell us in 1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through (dia) whom we exist.

Always God the Father is the source and origin of all works, deeds and salvation which come to us through the mediatorship of his son. From Him comes all to us through our Lord Jesus Christ so that to God the Father made all the praise be directed. The Father is the sole origin and Creator of "all things." In contrast, Jesus is the Father's commissioned Lord Messiah through whom God's plan for the world is coming to completion. The whole Bible from cover to cover categorically states that God created the universe and all the ages with Jesus Christ at the center of his eternal purpose. Jesus is the diameter running all the way through. “The world was made through him,” i.e. with Christ in mind.

So Cooper... read John Act 17:30

Act 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He ( God) has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."



Pay attention Cooper.... I'm about to show you the KNOWLEDGE of eternal life!!!


Joh 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.


Do you see the truth...?
Paul
Sent from where?
 
Don't you think Jesus's own words in Matthew Chapter 28 would be sufficient ?

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
 
Don't you think Jesus's own words in Matthew Chapter 28 would be sufficient ?

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
I don't. Although He mentioned the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, the words don't make them all to be part of the Godhead.
I'm not saying they're not, but I don't believe those words necessarily make it so.
 
For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1 John 5:7
I've heard that those words were not from the original scripts, but were added later. I'm not sure if I can accurately reproduce what I came across, but I'll give my view based on memory.
In the 10th or 11th century in Africa, they were written in the margin of the Scriptures and after copy after copy, they got included in the main script and became part of accepted Scripture. In the 16th or 17th century, Chapter and Verse numbers were added, which further solidified the credibility of the additions.
 
Sorry, but the above answer did not arrive where I wanted it to and didn't refer to the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. I meant to answer the verse 1 John 5, 7 and 8 which referred to notes written in Latin in the margin of copies of the Scriptures in Africa in the 16th or 17th century.
 
Sorry, but the above answer did not arrive where I wanted it to and didn't refer to the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. I meant to answer the verse 1 John 5, 7 and 8 which referred to notes written in Latin in the margin of copies of the Scriptures in Africa in the 16th or 17th century.
For Jesus to have ALL POWER in heaven and on earth is HIGHLY significant.
Only ONE OMNIPRESENT GOD in heaven and on earth could say that.
 
Last edited:
A couple of points about John 17:3
Point 1.
“This is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, AND Jesus Christ”
Christ G5547 means Messiah. The ISV have it correct. “And this is eternal life: to know you, the only true God, AND the one whom you sent—Jesus the Messiah.”

Point 2.

The emphasis is on knowing the only true God AND Jesus Christ the Messiah. If people do not know Jesus Christ and a lot of people do not know him, in fact, they reject Jesus. If they reject Jesus, they need to worry about their salvation because our salvation depends on knowing the Saviour.
 
Back
Top