You're right about Gnosticism and its influence during John's latter years, but he was writing to Christians who were influenced by the Gnostics to call them to repentance in chapter one and then goes on to describe the "already" of the gospel, what has "already" taken place in principle. On the other hand, Paul uses the last parts of his letters to call Christians to live out in practice the "already" in their lives that he describes in the first parts of his letters. You are describing the "already" principle without telling us about the "not-yet" that still needs to be worked out in practice. Compare Ephesians 1-3 and 4-6, for example, and 2:8-9 with verse 10.
How to walk by the spirit.
- Thread starter Peterlag7
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Oh, I see. Your ideas are in reaction to the Catholics. Why don't you study God's Word for your ideas instead of reacting to some group? I suggest that you look at and absorb my other post here. I wish you God's blessings in your studies of his inspired Word.
Remember, this goes back to your comment, "I cannot have a conversation with you about walking in the spirit if you think the spirit of Christ is God."
The issue is this: the NT consistently makes a distinction between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; they are not one and the same. So, if the Holy Spirit is also called the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of your Father, then we must take notice. Yes, God is holy and is Spirit, but God is not the Holy Spirit. Usually, "God" in the NT refers to just the Father. But, again, the Father is always kept distinct from the Holy Spirit and so is not the Holy Spirit.
My point being, if you're going to decline conversation with someone because they have a different understanding of what or who the Spirit of Christ is, then you had better make sure your understanding is correct, and so far I don't see how it is.
However, the whole Bible is God-inspired, as both Paul (2 Timothy 3:16-17) and Peter (2 Peter 1:16-18) say. Every passage has God's truths embedded in it. That's one of the criteria that the early church used to determine which books to include. Where did you get these ideas about the Scriptures?
2Pe 1:19 And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts,
2Pe 1:20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
Note that Paul says that we must become "complete" and "equipped" by God's Word "for every good work." That means we need spiritual progress in practice. I still need it at 82 after 66 years of being a Christian. If Paul says that he was still imperfect in Philippians 3:12-14, I'm not going to claim that I am, because I know my sins. Paul describes his and our "not-yet-perfect" situation in that passage:
Php 3:12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
Php 3:13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
Php 3:14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Why would Jesus be instructing His apostles, who are about to go forth giving the Gospel to the world, in a very detailed prayer that will have no application to anybody in a couple of months ?
That makes no biblical sense.
It contrary .
Jesus Said that this prayer that He has spoken will never pass away .
If the prayer of Jesus will never pass away then it has application for believers .
It cannot be otherwise.
Luk 11:1
Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.
Luk 11:2
And he said unto them,
When ye pray, say,........
.........And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
Forgiving sins because you forgave others is the Jewish doctrine. It is not the Christian doctrine.
The whole Bible is God inspired, but the whole Bible is not written to you. We will never understand the truth of God’s Word if we neglect to rightly divide the subject matter. As far as we are concerned in this Grace administration, what happened to Israel in the Old Testament was written for our learning. If we do not rightly divide to whom it's addressed—the Jew, Gentile, or the Church of God, we will use one truth to contradict another truth, and we will use what is true for one group in contrast to what is also true for another group.
These different administrations are suited to different times because God has spoken everything to its proper time and administration. We will never understand the truth of God’s Word if we read into one administration what God tells us belongs to another administration. If we believe what God said in one administration and carry it into another administration that was on a different principle, we will be taking what is true for one time, and using it to contradict what is also true for another time. When we mix them all together, by jumbling the whole Bible together: Law, Gospel, Grace, Judgment, Glory, Jew, Gentile, and the Church of God, we will be very confused in our understanding of the truth of God’s Word.
I do not hold your belief and so should we bicker or can I say we don't agree and thus don't see our conversation going any further? For me God is the Holy Spirit and He is not the spirit of Christ.
I'm telling the truth. My first red flag that started me looking into how to do this was when I realized it's the Catholics that teach we are sinners. They teach us to look at ourselves and our sin. Am I not allowed to tell the truth when I'm writing?
I am not describing the book of John or whatever "already" principle you are referring to. I'm responding to someone who posted that we are sinners because John said we should confess. The Gnostics did not believe they had sin and I believe John had them on his mind when he wrote first John 1.
No need for either. We can discuss it, can we not? Doesn’t iron sharpen iron?
But, you previously agreed with me that the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, is the Spirit of Christ. I even gave two passages that proved the Spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit. So why are you now saying otherwise?
Where does the Bible say that God is the Holy Spirit? Yes, it says God is holy and he is spirit, but it is fallacious to conclude that he is therefore the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ is God, but God isn’t the Holy Spirit.
For you, what has "gone" ?
For me, the old man/self is gone.
I am a new creature.
Thanks be to God.
The words “HOLY SPIRIT” in the Bible are primarily used in two very different ways: One way is to refer to God Himself and the other is referring to God’s nature that He gives to people. God is holy and is spirit and therefore “the Holy Spirit” with a capital “H” and a capital “S” is one of the many “names” or designations for God. God gives His holy spirit nature to people as a gift and when HOLY SPIRIT is used that way it should be translated as the “holy spirit” with a lowercase “h” and a lowercase “s.” The Bible says there is one God, and one Lord, who is the man Jesus Christ; and one gift of the holy spirit. Most Christians are aware that the original manuscripts of the Bible were written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. However, it's not well known that Hebrew and Aramaic do not have uppercase and lowercase letters, but rather they just have one form for their letters.
Greek does have upper and lowercase letters, but the early Greek manuscripts were all written with only uppercase letters. Therefore, the early manuscripts had no such thing as the “Holy Spirit” or the “holy spirit” because what was always written was the "HOLY SPIRIT." The capital or lowercase letters are always a translator’s interpretation whenever we read “Holy Spirit” or “holy spirit” or “Spirit” or“spirit” in the English Bible. The difference is usually due to the theology of the translator. The bottom line is we cannot know from the Hebrew or Greek texts whether the Author meant the “Holy Spirit” or the “holy spirit”because we must decide based on the context and scope of Scripture whether the reference being made is to God or God’s gift.
There are many descriptions, titles, and names for God in the Bible and I would like to add God’s proper name is “Yahweh” which occurs more than 6,000 times in the Hebrew Old Testament and is generally translated as “LORD.” But God is also referred to as Elohim, Adonai, El Shaddai, the Ancient of Days, the Holy One of Israel, Father, Shield, and by many more designations. Furthermore, God is holy (Leviticus 11:44), which is why He was called “the Holy One” (the Hebrew text uses the singular adjective “holy” to designate “the Holy One." He is also spirit (John 4:24). It makes perfect sense since God is holy and God is spirit that “Holy”and “Spirit” are sometimes combined and used as one of the many designations for God. Thus, the Hebrew or Greek words for the "HOLY SPIRIT" should be brought into English as the "Holy Spirit” when the subject of a verse is God.
None of the dozens of descriptions, titles, or names of God are believed to be a separate, co-equal “Person” in a triune God except for the “HOLY SPIRIT” and there is no solid biblical reason to make the "Holy Spirit” into a separate “Person.” In other contexts the “HOLY SPIRIT” refers to the gift of God’s nature that He placed on people and the new birth to the Christian, and in those contexts it should be translated as the “holy spirit." God placed a form of His nature which is “holy spirit” upon people when He wanted to spiritually empower them because our natural fleshly human bodies do not have spirit power of their own. This holy spirit nature of God was a gift from God to humankind and we see this in the case of Acts 2:38 when the spirit is specifically called a "gift" when given to the Christian.
God put the holy spirit upon Jesus immediately after he was baptized by John the Baptist because Jesus himself needed God’s gift of the holy spirit to have supernatural power just as the leaders and prophets of the Old Testament did. This fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies that God would put the holy spirit upon the Messiah enabling him in his ministry. The gift of the holy spirit was born “in” believers (John 14:17) after the Day of Pentecost rather than resting “upon” them and this is one reason why Christians are said to be “born again” of God’s spirit (1Peter 1:3, 23). Christians have spiritual power when they receive the gift of the holy spirit (Acts 1:8) because the holy spirit is born in them and becomes part of their very nature, and this is why Christians are called God’s “holy ones” which is usually translated as “saints” in the New Testament.
God put His gift of the “holy spirit” or the “spirit” on as many people as He deemed necessary in the Old Testament, and we see this when we look at how God took the spirit that was upon Moses and put it upon the 70 elders of Israel. However, today everyone who makes Jesus Christ their Lord receives the indwelling gift of the holy spirit and that's why Peter on the Day of Pentecost quoted the prophecy in Joel that said God would “pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh." Many scholars admit the concept of the Trinity that also includes reference to the "Holy Spirit” as an independent “Person” cannot be found in the Old Testament. The Jews to whom the Old Testament was given did not recognize any such being. It's a well-known historical fact that “Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh alone,” was the cry of Israel. No verse or context openly states or even directly infers that there is a separate “Person” called “the Holy Spirit."
Almost every English version translates John 14:17 similarly to “even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him.” Translators capitalize “Spirit” and use “he” and “him”because of their theology. The Greek word “spirit” is neuter and the text could also be translated as “the spirit of truth” and paired with “which” and “it.” The New American Bible reads “which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it.” Capitalizing the “H” and “S” and using the English pronoun “He” is appropriate when God is being referred to as “the Holy Spirit.” However, when we see the “h” and “s” having the lowercase such as "the holy spirit" and all the pronouns referring to that spirit being impersonal such as “it” and “which” is when the subject under discussion is the gift of God’s nature.
One of the ways we know that “pneuma hagion” often refers to the gift of God’s nature is that it “belongs” to God, who calls it “my” spirit. The spirit is called “God’s” spirit in many verses and King David understood the holy spirit belonged to God because he wrote “…do not take your holy spirit from me.” The Bible shows us that “the holy spirit” is under God’s authority and direction, which makes sense when we understand it's the gift of His nature that He gives to believers. The words “Messiah” in Hebrew (mashiyach מָשִׁיחַ) and “Christ” in Greek (christosΧριστός) both mean “anointed one.” Thus, the early Christians would have known him as “Jesus the anointed one.” God “anointed” Jesus Christ with the holy spirit and that's why Jesus was said to have been “anointed” even though people knew he had never been formally anointed with oil (Acts 4:27;10:38).
We have no evidence in the Bible that “the Holy Spirit” was ever used as a name because no one ever used it in a direct address. Many people spoke or prayed directly to God, starting out by saying “O Yahweh” (translated as “O LORD” in almost all English versions). Furthermore, the name “Jesus” is a Greek form of the name“Joshua” (in fact, the King James Version confuses “Joshua” and “Jesus” in Acts 7:45 and Hebrews 4:8) and many people spoke “to Jesus” in the Bible. But no one in the Bible ever used “the Holy Spirit” in a direct address because there's simply no actual name for any “Person” known as “the Holy Spirit” anywhere in the Bible.
The “holy spirit” God gave in the Old Testament was God’s nature, but after the Day of Pentecost He gave His nature in a new and fuller way than He had ever given it before and this is what was foretold in the Old Testament (Ezekiel 11:19;36:26). It was because this new spirit was promised in the Old Testament that the New Testament calls it “the promised holy spirit” Ephesians 1:13; Acts 2:33; Galatians 3:14). We have the “firstfruits” of the spirit (Romans 8:23) because Christians are the first to receive this new spirit and that's why we have the guarantee that we will be in the coming Messianic Kingdom.
The gift of the holy spirit that Christians have is a gift and thus an “it.” Jesus told the apostles that the spirit would be “in” them (John14:17)—which is what happened on the Day of Pentecost when the holy spirit went from being with or “upon” people in the Old Testament and Gospels to being born “in” people on and after the Day of Pentecost. The spirit is sent by the Father (John 14:16-17) and Jesus (John 16:7). It does not speak on its own, but it speaks only what it hears (John 16:13). Thus, the gift of the holy spirit is directed by God and Jesus, which is what we would expect since it's God’s nature born in us. The gift of the holy spirit is the nature of God, and when it's born in us it becomes part of our very nature (2 Peter 1:4).
God does not change, but the gift of God’s holy spirit that believers have today is different from the spirit that God gave in the Old Testament, and so the gift of God’s spirit has changed. The simple and straightforward reading of the Scripture is that there is one God, who is sometimes referred to as “the Holy Spirit” and one Lord who is the man Jesus Christ, and one gift of the holy spirit that is the nature of God that He gives to people.
Your knowledge of the Jew's perspective on sin in Jesus's day is severely lacking.
No conversation from a strictly Jewish perspective concerning sins that have separated the Jew from God as you claim is what Jesus is giving instruction about in the Lords Prayer could not include the edifice of Jewish worship.
For the Jew the sacred place where God Himself dwells on earth. the Temple.
For the Jew not just a place of worship, but the sacred sanctuary of God on earth.
That you esteem this to be a strictly Jewish prayer concerning sin of the Jew & yet not one word from Jesus to these Jews of the Temple which for Jews under the Old Covenant represented the True provision that God had given just to them as their means of atonement from sin and Spiritual cleansing shows a complete lack of understanding of the Jewish Temple System .
You are wrong on both counts.
That Jesus's prayer is not speaking to His disciples about things future and eternal.
And that Jesus's prayer is speaking to them about things past
Our Father, which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy Name. Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, As it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, As we forgive them that trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, The power, and the glory, For ever and ever. Amen.