How was the Thief on the Cross Saved?

[TruthSeeker2012]

The thief on the cross was saved, Jesus promised Him Paradise. But why?

The thief did not keep the Sabbath, He did not live a life for Jesus. He did not love God or others, because if you steal from others, you cannot have sincere love and concern for them. He never shared Jesus with others. And his last works was STEALING!

Yet here he is being promised eternal life in Paradise and he will live in heaven forever and be rewarded with immortality.

So it's obvious, the thief was saved by FAITH ALONE, nothing else, because he had nothing else to offer, NO WORKS, NO OBEDIENCE, NO NOTHING!

So here is a question... Are we saved by the exact same gospel the thief was? Or are there multiple gospels? One for the Thief and a different one for us?

Many Christians try to tell me that I cannot be saved by faith and grace alone. They tell me I must live a life of obedience and produce many works and "live right" and please God with my actions, efforts, deeds and behaviour.

But if that's true, then we have in reality different gospel versions..one that saved the thief and the death bed acceptance of Jesus, and another gospel for me and others where we cannot be saved by faith and grace alone, but by faith + grace + works + obedience + fruit + etc.

So tell me folks... was the thief saved by the exact same gospel that all of mankind will be saved by? OR do you believe there are different gospels for different people?

What about the person dying on their death bed and ask to see a Minister and they accept Jesus into their heart two minutes before they die? Can they be in paradise, even though their whole life was filled with disobedience to God and rejection of God and their last works were rotten fruit?

So can they get into heaven by FAITH AND GRACE ALONE but we cannot?

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together...

 

[handy]

I think you're creating a false dichotomy here: Either one needs only "faith" (and no altering to any of life's behaviors or attitudes) or there can be no such thing as a death bed confession.

The truth of the matter is, while we can be saved on our death bed, or when hanging from a cross, if we're not on our deathbeds our faith should produce a heart primed and ready to do all the Lord's work.


We were saved for a reason:

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Eph 2:10

This is why James says, "show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." James 2:18

As a matter of fact, James takes it to the bottom line and flat out tells us that faith without works is dead, unable to save anyone. Is anyone calling James a liar, or saying that the Bible is wrong to have recorded his words here?

God, in His infinite grace and mercy, lovingly gathers in even those who turn to Him in the final moments of their lives, as if snatching a brand from the fire.

This isn't the status quo for most of us. Most of us are called to walk for years in our faith, working out those works that He as prepared for us to do.

If one should refuse to do them...based upon OSAS, proclaiming "I have faith, I don't need anything else!!!" then James clearly teaches us that such faith is dead.

Grace and faith do save and save alone...yes...but, "you will know them by their fruit". If the "fruit" of ones faith is to say, "I already walked down the aisle and prayed the prayer...don't need to do nuttin' else and nobody's gonna tell me otherwise"...then the "fruit" proves that "faith" is worthless.

Those who truly have be saved via faith won't want to let anything keep them from loving and obeying all God's commandments just out of a sheer desire to serve their Lord.

 

[Webb]

We can't be saved like the thief because we live under a different covenant than he. Very simple!

 

[WIP]

I sometimes think we get too hung up on works. I feel that works come by faith not the other way around. In that sense then yes, I suppose one can be saved by faith alone but once one has the faith, the works will become manifest by that faith and his light will shine by his works. I don't do works to prove I have faith. I do works because I have faith.

 

[handy]

I sometimes think we get too hung up on works. I feel that works come by faith not the other way around. In that sense then yes, I suppose one can be saved by faith alone but once one has the faith, the works will become manifest by that faith and his light will shine by his works. I don't do works to prove I have faith. I do works because I have faith.

I agree with you WIP....but just as some can and do get hung up on works...there are also many who get just as hung up on "faith alone" and/or OSAS....

Extremism goes both ways. The truth of the matter is, faith produces works and if the works aren't there, the faith is useless. This is clear and simple biblical truth.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

We can't be saved like the thief because we live under a different covenant than he. Very simple!

So we are saved by a different gospel to the thief? Do explain, with Bible references please.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

I sometimes think we get too hung up on works. I feel that works come by faith not the other way around. In that sense then yes, I suppose one can be saved by faith alone but once one has the faith, the works will become manifest by that faith and his light will shine by his works. I don't do works to prove I have faith. I do works because I have faith.

Define "works", and give me an example of your weekly works that you refer to. What kind of deeds and behavior and human effort are you performing during the week to classify it as "doing works" of sincere faith, and how much "works" do you do each week for you to believe it's a result from genuine faith?

I await your reply with interest. Thank you.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

...faith produces works and if the works aren't there, the faith is useless. This is clear and simple biblical truth.

I will ask you the same question...what kind of "works" do you do each week and in what amounts for you to believe it's true biblical faith in action and human effort?

Let's say you did 1 hour this week of "works", would that prove you have biblical faith? Or do you need 50 hours per week of "works" before you believe it's a saving faith result of works? Maybe 100 hours? What if someone does 5 hours less works per week than you..do you believe your works are sincere and theirs are not?

Thank you, I am very interested in your reply.

 

[handy]

I'm glad you're interested in my reply?

I find it a bit interesting myself that you are immediately jumping to some kind of quantitative amount of time or work that one must do. I'm not sure why you're thinking in these terms.

Here is my answer, and believe me when I say I'm not evading the question or anything....this is how I look at this subject.

How much work does it take for a tree to produce apples or a vine to produce grapes? How much work does it take for a grain of wheat to yield a harvest?

We have this tree on our property. Each and every year it puts forth blossoms. However, because there is very little actual soil underneath and because it doesn't get any water throughout the summer...it only produces a handful of wild plums.

But, it does indeed produce those plums. Hardships aside (little good soil, little water) it produces what it can. That's life. Not far from it is yet another wild plum tree, but it's dead. It doesn't blossom, nor does it produce fruit. We need to get out there and cut it down for some firewood. It's dead.

As WIP said, we produce works because we have faith. Without the works the faith is useless. Dead.

I'm am very interested in seeing how you view what James has to say in this matter. Do you sincerely believe that a Christian has no need of works...that works is so untied from faith that we can jettison the whole idea?

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

I'm glad you're interested in my reply?

I find it a bit interesting myself that you are immediately jumping to some kind of quantitative amount of time or work that one must do. I'm not sure why you're thinking in these terms.

Here is my answer, and believe me when I say I'm not evading the question or anything....this is how I look at this subject.

How much work does it take for a tree to produce apples or a vine to produce grapes? How much work does it take for a grain of wheat to yield a harvest?

We have this tree on our property. Each and every year it puts forth blossoms. However, because there is very little actual soil underneath and because it doesn't get any water throughout the summer...it only produces a handful of wild plums.

But, it does indeed produce those plums. Hardships aside (little good soil, little water) it produces what it can. That's life. Not far from it is yet another wild plum tree, but it's dead. It doesn't blossom, nor does it produce fruit. We need to get out there and cut it down for some firewood. It's dead.

As WIP said, we produce works because we have faith. Without the works the faith is useless. Dead.

I'm am very interested in seeing how you view what James has to say in this matter. Do you sincerely believe that a Christian has no need of works...that works is so untied from faith that we can jettison the whole idea?

Salvation cannot be based on any amount of works at all, and the reason is because then we have multiple different gospels. One for people like the thief on the cross who produced NO GOOD WORKS, in fact HIS LAST WORKS WERE STEALING!!! Yet he made it into Paradise by FAITH ALONE!

And if works are needed to be saved..how much works? 100 hours per week? 50 hours? What if a person does 49 hours per week works and is lost, yet the man who did 50 hours per week is saved, then he is saved by an extra 1 hour of WORKS over the other man!

NO NO NO!!! Salvation, Justification and Sanctification is based on FAITH ALONE, NOT BY WORKS, IT'S A GIFT OF GOD!

However, once a person is sincerely born again, they will delight in the Law and 10 Commandments because God writes His law on the heart of the born again Christians.

The act of faith which thus secures our justification secures also at the same time our sanctification and thus the doctrine of justification by faith does not lead to licentiousness (Rom. 6:2-7). Good works, while not the ground, are the certain consequence, fruit and result of justification (6:14; 7:6)

 

[jasoncran]

solo fide, means that faith that saves must have works. God isnt mocked if we did repent we will be found doing works such as: soul winning, or any ministry, the live that has been changed .

its the EVIDENCE THAT YOU DID REPENT!

 

[Webb]

TruthSeeker wrote: "So we are saved by a different gospel to the thief? Do explain, witih Bible references please."

Gladly! I didn't say "differrent gospel" but rather different "covenant". There is a difference, so please don't put words in my mouth.

I shall briefliy "explain, with Bible references" and then more.

You want to know about the thief on the cross. Sounds like you think there is something about the thief that makes Jesus' words in Mark 16:16 untrue. Be assured what Jesus said in Mark 16:16 is true regardless of any thief on or off the cross.
Answer the question, under which covenant did the thief live? Do you live under the same as the thief? I think not. We live under the "will" of Christ: "BY THE WHICH WILL WE ARE SANCTIFIED THROUGH THE OFFERING OF THE BODY OF JESUS CHRIST ONCE--" Heb.10:10. There is NO sanctification today for those who seek it through the old covenant. The passage of this paragraph refers to the new covenant.

I said I would offer you more. I am willing to meet you on the debate forum regarding this matter of the thief. What say you?

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

solo fide, means that faith that saves must have works. God isnt mocked if we did repent we will be found doing works such as: soul winning, or any ministry, the live that has been changed .

its the EVIDENCE THAT YOU DID REPENT!

Did the saved thief produce any good works? Yes or No?

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

TruthSeeker wrote: "So we are saved by a different gospel to the thief? Do explain, witih Bible references please."

Gladly! I didn't say "differrent gospel" but rather different "covenant". There is a difference, so please don't put words in my mouth.....

Can a thief living in the year 2011, whos last works were stealing, be saved on his deathbed in the year 2011 under the NEW COVENANT with 5 minutes to live and no opportunity to produce any good works for God? Yes or No?

 

[Webb]

Will you debate the issue?? Yes or no??

 

[Roof]

The thief on the cross was saved, Jesus promised Him Paradise. But why?

The thief did not keep the Sabbath, He did not live a life for Jesus. He did not love God or others, because if you steal from others, you cannot have sincere love and concern for them. He never shared Jesus with others. And his last works was STEALING!

Yet here he is being promised eternal life in Paradise and he will live in heaven forever and be rewarded with immortality.

So it's obvious, the thief was saved by FAITH ALONE, nothing else, because he had nothing else to offer, NO WORKS, NO OBEDIENCE, NO NOTHING!

So here is a question... Are we saved by the exact same gospel the thief was? Or are there multiple gospels? One for the Thief and a different one for us?

Many Christians try to tell me that I cannot be saved by faith and grace alone. They tell me I must live a life of obedience and produce many works and "live right" and please God with my actions, efforts, deeds and behaviour.

But if that's true, then we have in reality different gospel versions..one that saved the thief and the death bed acceptance of Jesus, and another gospel for me and others where we cannot be saved by faith and grace alone, but by faith + grace + works + obedience + fruit + etc.

So tell me folks... was the thief saved by the exact same gospel that all of mankind will be saved by? OR do you believe there are different gospels for different people?

What about the person dying on their death bed and ask to see a Minister and they accept Jesus into their heart two minutes before they die? Can they be in paradise, even though their whole life was filled with disobedience to God and rejection of God and their last works were rotten fruit?

So can they get into heaven by FAITH AND GRACE ALONE but we cannot?

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together...

The thiefs last works were on the cross.

Luke 23

40But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

 

[Roof]

Can a thief living in the year 2011, whos last works were stealing, be saved on his deathbed in the year 2011 under the NEW COVENANT with 5 minutes to live and no opportunity to produce any good works for God? Yes or No?

If he has 5 minutes then a thief in the 2011 has time to repent

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

Will you debate the issue?? Yes or no??

Stop running from my questions.. stop hiding from them.. stop sidestepping them. It comes across as you are frightened off my questions when you keep evading them.

You indicated to me earlier in a previous post that the thief on the Cross was saved by FAITH ALONE and NOT WORKS because he was under the OLD COVENANT! The thief's last works were STEALING and he did not good works at all, yet Jesus promised him a place in Paradise. Yet you reason that's because he was not under the new covenant. So please answer this following question:

Can a thief living in the year 2011, whos last works were stealing, be saved on his deathbed in the year 2011 under the NEW COVENANT with 5 minutes to live and no opportunity to produce any good works for God?

Yes or No?

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

The thiefs last works were on the cross.

Luke 23

40But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

Who said the thief had done nothing wrong and what does the Bible say? Does the Bible also say the thief lived a life of doing nothing wrong? Yes or No?

And what "good works" did the thief do to get himself paradise? Besides placing FAITH IN JESUS, what other "good works" did he do that contributed to his salvation?

 

[handy]

Did the saved thief produce any good works? Yes or No?

Yep, he sure did....2000 years later we are still being ministered to, challenged and taught by his testimony of repentance and faith. What's more, long after all my "fruit" has been harvested and brought in and I'm laid to rest and turned to dust, the thief's fruit will still be of use to God and the Church as long as the Scriptures remain.