[_ Old Earth _] How well do you actually know The Theory of Evolution?

[Doulos Iesou]

I never said that the majority of biologists were misguided. I'm not sure how many are.

Majority is any percentage over 50 percent. You don't seriously think that it's split 50/50 on the issue of evolution?

 

[Edward]

He is the Creator. Not some little middle eastern nature deity, making a tree here and a rabbit there. He created the universe, and it brought forth life as He intended. This is His word in Genesis.



Because He is the one God, He could make it so that life was brought forth by His creation according to His will. He's a lot more powerful and capable than YE creationism would have Him.

I've spent a lifetime learning about His creation, and I've yet to find something that doesn't glorify Him. I feel sorry for those who don't understand it very well. As St. Paul said:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

This is interesting and thought provoking. I'm trying to understand on what you base your view on, and how it fits together with scripture. So your post brings up a few questions for me.

Not some little middle eastern nature deity, making a tree here and a rabbit there. He created the universe, and it brought forth life as He intended. This is His word in Genesis.

To clarify, the tree you speak of...the tree(s) of life, and Good & evil?
If God brought forth life as He intended, and is even more powerful than we realize...couldn't He, or wouldn't He, have brought forth life in perfection, life which needed no enhancements or modifications that evolution took care of?

If He's more powerful than even I ( a YE creationist) have realized...(I can imagine a lot of power brother!) I already believe that He has enough power to be able to make life which didn't need to go back to the (evolutionary) drawing board...So...where does that leave us?

 

[Edward]

Indeed. I'm in no way afraid of the truth.

Side by side comparisons of chromosomes for Humans, Chimpanzees, Gorillas and Orangutans. (From left to right in each sample)

We are bipedal primates.

Wow, yeah, there's some similarities there. Apes have 5 fingers like humans, and perhaps similarities in chromosones also. Neet. What was the verse saying that apes were created in Gods image? I seem to forget that one, I looked and can't find it.

All life has certain similarities brother here and there...maybe...maybe...you came from an ape...but I sure didn't, brother!

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Wow, yeah, there's some similarities there. Apes have 5 fingers like humans, and perhaps similarities in chromosones also. Neet. What was the verse saying that apes were created in Gods image? I seem to forget that one, I looked and can't find it.

All life has certain similarities brother here and there...maybe...maybe...you came from an ape...but I sure didn't, brother!

Do you believe that God the Father is Flesh and Blood and looks like a human? That's rather a Mormon conception of God, as Christians have historically understood God as Omnipresent, and is a Spirit.

Our being God's Image is a vocational role, in that we reflect God to the world by having wise dominion over it.

Apes don't just have 5 fingers like us, but the bone structure of the phalanges, the carpals and meta carpals on their hands.

Here above is the hand of a Chimpanzee, note the similarities to the hand below.

View attachment 5416

The bone structure is extremely similar, even down to how the carpals (the small individual bones at the bottom of your hand) are structured. All life has similarities, because all life is related, and this isn't just in the way they look. We share a .1% difference between ourselves and other humans, but chimpanzees are anywhere between 1% and 4% difference (some sources disagree on just how much), here below is a source which demonstrates the relationship in detail.

"Humans and chimpanzees shared a common ancestor ∼5-7 million years ago (Mya). The difference between the two genomes is actually not ∼1%, but ∼4%—comprising ∼35 million single nucleotide differences and ∼90 Mb of insertions and deletions."
Source: http://genome.cshlp.org/content/15/12/1746.full

 

[Gary]

I have a request for our resident evolutionists.

Explain how this species evolved without laying eggs. Watch the video and you'll understand.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I have a request for our resident evolutionists.

Explain how this species evolved without laying eggs. Watch the video and you'll understand.

As usual, I don't have the time right now to watch the video as I am not at home presently, but I do have the time to comment shortly about eggs and evolution.

Just about any animal you can think of has eggs, some lay them such as birds and reptiles, etc. While others such as placental mammals such as ourselves have them within our bodies in is a "void of yolk." That nearly every sexually reproducing organism on the planet does so by some form of egg is strong evolution of common descent.

 

[jay55]

Majority is any percentage over 50 percent. You don't seriously think that it's split 50/50 on the issue of evolution?

I don't know what the split is. I can only speak on those biologists I know well enough myself to confirm their position.

 

[jay55]

You don't strike me as much of a liberal Christian, correct me if I'm wrong.

Well I'm a Christian I know that much. Not sure how you define a conservative Christian vs a liberal Christian. I know that I wouldn't vote for Barry if that's what you're getting at.

 

[Gary]

Majority is any percentage over 50 percent. You don't seriously think that it's split 50/50 on the issue of evolution?

I don't know what the split is. I can only speak on those biologists I know well enough myself to confirm their position.

It really doesn't matter what the percentages are, the fact remains, people are abandoning their faith in evolution.

 

[jay55]

It really doesn't matter what the percentages are, the fact remains, people are abandoning their faith in evolution.

Yes, it is trending in the right direction.

 

[Edward]

Do you believe that God the Father is Flesh and Blood and looks like a human? That's rather a Mormon conception of God, as Christians have historically understood God as Omnipresent, and is a Spirit.

Our being God's Image is a vocational role, in that we reflect God to the world by having wise dominion over it.

Apes don't just have 5 fingers like us, but the bone structure of the phalanges, the carpals and meta carpals on their hands.

Here above is the hand of a Chimpanzee, note the similarities to the hand below.

View attachment 5416

The bone structure is extremely similar, even down to how the carpals (the small individual bones at the bottom of your hand) are structured. All life has similarities, because all life is related, and this isn't just in the way they look. We share a .1% difference between ourselves and other humans, but chimpanzees are anywhere between 1% and 4% difference (some sources disagree on just how much), here below is a source which demonstrates the relationship in detail.

"Humans and chimpanzees shared a common ancestor ∼5-7 million years ago (Mya). The difference between the two genomes is actually not ∼1%, but ∼4%—comprising ∼35 million single nucleotide differences and ∼90 Mb of insertions and deletions."
Source: http://genome.cshlp.org/content/15/12/1746.full

Uhhh, I don't know what it is with people. Not just you brother, but a lot of people. Why would God have to be flesh and blood for us to be made in His image? There's very much more to it than the bipedal image of arms and legs. Our Lord is a spiritual being and no one seems to want to take this into account, yet it significant, probably moreso significant than this measly flesh and blood. Again, we are not human beings on a spiritual journey, we are spiritual beings on a human journey.

In His image

From Genesis 1:27, we take "Image"

Image (H6754)
צלם
tselem
tseh'-lem
From an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, that is, (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence a representative figure, especially an idol: - image, vain shew./(E-sword)

Resemblance. This could and most certainly means quite a bit more than the silhouette of our bodies. If we were to go by that alone, then, I guess apes are made in Gods image too, and that's just too much to fathom. This means more than that, something of a spiritual nature. When we fell from grace, we lost our identity. This is what is to be reestablished with our redemption and relationship with Him when we're saved and start walking with the Lord again. It will be completed with our transfiguration when He returns.

Live for the Spirit, be led by the Spirit, let the Spirit man dominate in us and leave the flesh man behind. We do not need to rely upon our knowledge and wisdom in these things, we are to become as little children, and be led by God, let God's Spirit teach us, and to look to Him in all things. That's part of it brother.

Here we are, sitting around debating about evolution when we really shouldn't be. All focus should be upon the Lord and focus upon renewing ourselves and our very lifestyle and habits to be as Jesus was (is), to have His mind and Him within us and solely concentrating upon Him and our relationship and regaining our identity in His image.

 

[Edward]

So Doulos, if we're from the sea as you said recently, how do you reconcile that scripture says we came from the dust of the ground?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Uhhh, I don't know what it is with people. Not just you brother, but a lot of people. Why would God have to be flesh and blood for us to be made in His image? There's very much more to it than the bipedal image of arms and legs. Our Lord is a spiritual being and no one seems to want to take this into account, yet it significant, probably moreso significant than this measly flesh and blood. Again, we are not human beings on a spiritual journey, we are spiritual beings on a human journey.

I don't really see that. We are complete beings, not just some kind of ghost in the shell on a temporary journey. Hence the ultimate redemption of mankind is the resurrection, not some eternal ethereal existence.

From Genesis 1:27, we take "Image"

Image (H6754)
צלם
tselem
tseh'-lem
From an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, that is, (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence a representative figure, especially an idol: - image, vain shew./(E-sword)

This is strong's concordance, and it is not a lexicon.

7512 I. צֶלֶם (ṣě·lěm): n.masc.; ≡ Str 6754; TWOT 1923a—1. LN 6.96–6.101 image, idol, i.e., a created and formed artifact that is worshiped as or as representing a pagan deity (Nu 33:52; 2Ki 11:18; 2Ch 23:17; Eze 7:20; 16:17; 23:14; Am 5:26+), note: for another interp in Ps 39:7[EB 6]; 73:20, see 7513; 2. LN 58.58–58.62 image, likeness, i.e., that which is a pattern, model, or example of something (Ge 1:26, 27; 5:3; 9:6+), note: the exact reference of whether this is moral, ethical, physical, nature, etc. is not clear; 3. LN 6.96–6.101 model, figures, i.e., a two or three dimensional painted or sculptured representation of something, but not necessarily a worship object (1Sa 6:5,11+)

Swanson, J. (1997). Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains : Hebrew (Old Testament). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

The way in which I am referring to image is in the idea of being a model, reflecting representation of God's dominion over the earth. Not in a physical sense at all, given God is not a physical being, hence the whole argument about coming from apes betrays the notion of the image of God baseless.

Resemblance. This could and most certainly means quite a bit more than the silhouette of our bodies.

No idea where you get this notion. I don't see anything physical denoted.

f we were to go by that alone, then, I guess apes are made in Gods image too, and that's just too much to fathom.

We are apes, but we are certainly set apart. Gorillas and Chimps were not given dominion over the earth, we were. Hence your physical interpretation of the word "image" yet again fails.

This means more than that, something of a spiritual nature. When we fell from grace, we lost our identity. This is what is to be reestablished with our redemption and relationship with Him when we're saved and start walking with the Lord again. It will be completed with our transfiguration when He returns.

Are you saying that the image of God was lost at some point for some?

Live for the Spirit, be led by the Spirit, let the Spirit man dominate in us and leave the flesh man behind. We do not need to rely upon our knowledge and wisdom in these things, we are to become as little children, and be led by God, let God's Spirit teach us, and to look to Him in all things. That's part of it brother.

This is awfully Pentecostal sounding.

Here we are, sitting around debating about evolution when we really shouldn't be.

I doubt anyone is going to be convinced, but I think the truth on this issue matters.

All focus should be upon the Lord and focus upon renewing ourselves and our very lifestyle and habits to be as Jesus was (is), to have His mind and Him within us and solely concentrating upon Him and our relationship and regaining our identity in His image.

Jesus is first, but I certainly don't think it's possible for that to be the only thing we set our minds to. Just being practical.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

So Doulos, if we're from the sea as you said recently, how do you reconcile that scripture says we came from the dust of the ground?

I believe that mankind is made from dust, just not in the way you do. All life is Carbon based ultimately.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

It really doesn't matter what the percentages are, the fact remains, people are abandoning their faith in evolution.

The church's opposition to evolution is one root cause in my opinion for why so many fall away. They realize that they were taught so many lies on this particular subject and they end up throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Young Earth Creationism can be lethal to a person's faith, if they end up actually looking into the science.

 

[Obadiah]

Sounds like for most people there's a lot of opinions on both sides that seem to go along with whether you believe science or you believe God. Neither side has all the answers. I guess for me, God promised me eternal life if I believe in Him and his word where science promises me nothing. So I'll choose to believe in God's word, even if there's parts of it, like Genesis, where I don't understand how it was done and don't know for sure if it was meant to be a factual explanation of how it was done, or just a story to tell us that God did it and did it in a miraculously powerful way that is simply beyond our ability to comprehend and beyond our need to comprehend. I'm not so anxious to call God a liar just because some scientists think they are smarter and know more than He does, which really IS the way a lot of them act! I believe when we are in heaven and with God, we will be given all the information that we don't know now, IF we need to know it then and IF we even care. I'm perfectly happy to wait until then.

 

[Edward]

I don't really see that. We are complete beings, not just some kind of ghost in the shell on a temporary journey. Hence the ultimate redemption of mankind is the resurrection, not some eternal ethereal existence.

So you don't believe that we are body/soul/spirit? Do you believe that there is a spiritual realm that we can not see? More dimensions?

The way in which I am referring to image is in the idea of being a model, reflecting representation of God's dominion over the earth. Not in a physical sense at all, given God is not a physical being, hence the whole argument about coming from apes betrays the notion of the image of God baseless.

Uhhh, I'm sorry brother. I don't really understand what you mean here and don't want to presume.

We are apes, but we are certainly set apart. Gorillas and Chimps were not given dominion over the earth, we were. Hence your physical interpretation of the word "image" yet again fails.

I dunno, perhaps I misunderstood your intent. You said something to the effect of we're bipedal like chimps and such. Perhaps you could expound a little on what you think "in His image" really means so there's no misunderstanding?

Are you saying that the image of God was lost at some point for some?

Not really but more was lost in the fall than we realize. Succinctly, we lost relationship, identity. I believe that before the fall, Adam could do much more than afterwards. We very probably had multi-dimension capability and had "powers" so to speak, that are available to spiritual beings alone, like dimension hopping, perhaps translation capabilities? And the mind of Christ, to where we (thought differently obviously) could spiritually ask a question or desire something (food?) and it would be there, the answer, the food, whatever. This is probably deeper than even my feeble mind can imagine.
now we have to toil for food, walk to where we want to go, figure things out for ourself with our (Ha!) brain. I don't think we used our brain before the fall, we "thought" differently, from a different location in us (spirit? heart?). I think some of these things are encompassed within the terminology of in His "image".

This is awfully Pentecostal sounding.

What's that mean? Are we not to live for the Spirit? Seek out and take within us the knowledge of the Spiritual realm? Not to look to God for answers?

I doubt anyone is going to be convinced, but I think the truth on this issue matters.

Probably to an extent, but our personal relationship with the Spirit and Jesus matters more.

Jesus is first, but I certainly don't think it's possible for that to be the only thing we set our minds to. Just being practical.

I hear you. But the heart is deceitfully wicked and we can not lose our focus upon the Lord. The Lord is not first...He's first first. In all. Remember when Peter was walking on the water outside boat with Jesus? As soon as he took his eyes off of the Lord, he began sinking...We can't get too distracted!

 

[Edward]

I believe that mankind is made from dust, just not in the way you do. All life is Carbon based ultimately.

Would you mind expounding on this a little brother?

 

[Gary]

The church's opposition to evolution is one root cause in my opinion for why so many fall away. They realize that they were taught so many lies on this particular subject and they end up throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

I don't think the church has anything to do with atheists falling off the evolution wagon. It's the evidence or lack thereof that are causing people to question their beliefs.

Young Earth Creationism can be lethal to a person's faith, if they end up actually looking into the science.

Looking into science is precisely why many are abandoning the secular teachings of evolution. As you mentioned, the lies they were taught are exposed once they take it upon themselves to do their own research. Looking into the science is actually quite beneficial.
.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I don't think the church has anything to do with atheists falling off the evolution wagon. It's the evidence or lack thereof that are causing people to question their beliefs.

Please don't misrepresent what I said, that's rude. I said that Creationism leads to many people losing their faith. Just go to the exchristian forums and read their out of faith testimonies and you can see the sad truth for yourself.

Looking into science is precisely why many are abandoning the secular teachings of evolution.

Strange, the people who look into the science the most are the people who hold most strongly to it, as every major scientific organization accepts evolution based on the evidence. In fact! There is not ONE single peer-reviewed article in any scientific publication criticizing evolution, none...ever... lol

As you mentioned, the lies they were taught are exposed once they take it upon themselves to do their own research. Looking into the science is actually quite beneficial.

Tell us about your scientific education. How much have you actually looked into it, besides Creationist youtube videos.