Hyper-Futurist Challenge

[parousia70]

Revelation 3:3 Jesus promises real air breathing, blood pumping Human beings that if THEY did not watch, His coming would overtake THEM as a Thief:

Rev 3:3 NKJ:
If you [1st century Church at Sardis] do not watch, I will come to you [1st century Church at Sardis]as a thief and you [1st Century Church at Sardis] will not know what hour I will come upon you [1st Century Church at Sardis]

The Challenge to the Hyper-Futurist is this:

Did Jesus Fulfill His Promise in Rev 3:3 to Come as a thief to the 1st century Church at Sardis?
if so, How?
if not, Why?

Who'll be the first Hyper-Futurist to attempt to publicly scale this insurmountable barrier to the legitimacy of their view?

 

[nonbelieverforums]

Geeesh.. I don't even understand the question :help

 

[Osgiliath]

Parousia70; hyper-futurist? Did you just make that term up? Just reading the title of your thread made me chuckle (genuinely). Anyway, I don’t consider myself a “hyper-futurist†because I also don’t agree with the bulk of dispensationalist theology. I also don’t think it is necessary to swim against the current of truth because you are disgusted with the doctrinal abuses that have taken place within dispensationalism and futurism. Why run from one erroneous extreme only to plunge head first into another simply because it is the polar opposite? Overreactions and irrational reasoning usually go hand in hand; but I guess that’s just human nature; oh well.

As for the question; come on. This is simply a matter of how you or I interpret the subject. Whereas my question in the hyper-preterist challenge could be verified Biblically AND historically, your question cannot be verified Biblically OR historically - big difference. Insurmountable is meaningless if there is no way to verify. In essence, it’s a trick question. If I say; "No, He did not Come as a thief to the 1st century Church at Sardis" , then you will say that I don’t believe Jesus fulfills His promises. If say; "Yes, He did Come to the 1st century Church at Sardis"; then you will send me a listing of preterist gatherings in the New York area. Either way, it is not something that can be verified Scripturally or historically, and it comes down to how one interprets and understands prophecy. Let’s stick to what can be proven. These opinionated debates go nowhere, and I don’t have time to chit chat over presumptions that can’t be confirmed in anyway whatsoever. I'm going on vacation tomorrow anyway, so I won't be around for a little over a week. Maybe someone else can shoot it out with you on this one.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Revelation 3:3 Jesus promises real air breathing, blood pumping Human beings that if THEY did not watch, His coming would overtake THEM as a Thief:

Rev 3:3 NKJ:
If you [1st century Church at Sardis] do not watch, I will come to you [1st century Church at Sardis]as a thief and you [1st Century Church at Sardis] will not know what hour I will come upon you [1st Century Church at Sardis]

The Challenge to the Hyper-Futurist is this:

Did Jesus Fulfill His Promise in Rev 3:3 to Come as a thief to the 1st century Church at Sardis?
if so, How?
if not, Why?

Who'll be the first Hyper-Futurist to attempt to publicly scale this insurmountable barrier to the legitimacy of their view?

Mark 13;37
And what I say unto you I say unto all,watch.
You claim those of Sardis did not watch 2000 years ago so Jesus came and destroyed them.
Whos to say those of Sardis was like yourself?

If is a huge word,it should never be overlooked.

 

[parousia70]

Parousia70; hyper-futurist? Did you just make that term up?

KInda. Pretty Kewl huh?

Just reading the title of your thread made me chuckle (genuinely).

I'm glad

Why run from one erroneous extreme only to plunge head first into another simply because it is the polar opposite? Overreactions and irrational reasoning usually go hand in hand; but I guess that’s just human nature; oh well.

What erroneous extreme are you suggesting I have run to?

Insurmountable is meaningless if there is no way to verify.

NO way to verify?
brings me back to the question I asked you before...
Do you believe Jesus rose from the dead because of His promise to do so or because of the eyewitness testimony of Him doing so?

Apparently, the promise alone isn't enough for you. You have just made that clear.
"Great Promise Jesus, but I won't believe you fulfilled it unless I have evidence."

Apparently, You are comfortable with requiring that from Christ.
I am Not.

In essence, it’s a trick question. If I say; "No, He did not Come as a thief to the 1st century Church at Sardis" , then you will say that I don’t believe Jesus fulfills His promises. If say; "Yes, He did Come to the 1st century Church at Sardis"; then you will send me a listing of preterist gatherings in the New York area.

Unacceptable. Answer the question.

Let’s stick to what can be proven.

If the thief's coming was was promised BY CHRIST to befall the 1st century Church at Sardis, it happened.
It's really that simple.

Now, if you have some evidence that Christ did NOT make that promise to them, then by all means, lay it out for us.

These opinionated debates go nowhere,

How exactly is taking Jesus at his word "opinionated"?

and I don’t have time to chit chat over presumptions that can’t be confirmed in anyway

Like I said folks... Insurmountable.

I'm going on vacation tomorrow anyway, so I won't be around for a little over a week.

Have a Great Trip... I'm going on Holiday in a little while too, looking forward to the break!

 

[parousia70]

Geeesh.. I don't even understand the question :help

Well, I'm not surprised.

Lets break it up NBF, ...
Revelation 3:3... The 1st Century Church at Sardis...Jesus issues THEM a warning....

Follow so far?
Agree, Disagree?

 

[parousia70]

You claim those of Sardis did not watch 2000 years ago so Jesus came and destroyed them.

His Coming overtook those who did not watch at Sardis "as a Thief", The watchful were not overtaken, as scripture plainly states they wouldn't be.

Whos to say those of Sardis was like yourself?

You?

If is a huge word,it should never be overlooked.

Agreed.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

You claim those of Sardis did not watch 2000 years ago so Jesus came and destroyed them.

His Coming overtook those who did not watch at Sardis "as a Thief", The watchful were not overtaken, as scripture plainly states they wouldn't be.

Whos to say those of Sardis was like yourself?

You?

[quote:3kzvgp82] If is a huge word,it should never be overlooked.

Agreed.[/quote:3kzvgp82]

Mark 13;37
And what I say unto you I say unto all,watch.

So what did those of Sardis watch for and what do you watch for?
If you believe the prophecies that are being forfilled today were forfilled thousands of years ago then what is there for you to watch?

 

[Cyberseeker]

... Why run from one erroneous extreme only to plunge head first into another simply because it is the polar opposite? ...

You got it Ossi Hyper-futurism vs. hyper-preterism. Sheesh.

 

[Drew]

Mark 13;37
And what I say unto you I say unto all,watch.

I believe that this entire passage (Mark 13) has been largely misunderstood to be about the second coming. I think it is instead a reference to coming judgement on Jerusalem in 70 AD. In such a "preterist" view, what is the purpose of the above warning to "watch"? It is the warning to the believer to flee Jerusalem to escape the judgement that God will deliver through the agency of Rome.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Mark 13;37
And what I say unto you I say unto all,watch.

I believe that this entire passage (Mark 13) has been largely misunderstood to be about the second coming. I think it is instead a reference to coming judgement on Jerusalem in 70 AD. In such a "preterist" view, what is the purpose of the above warning to "watch"? It is the warning to the believer to flee Jerusalem to escape the judgement that God will deliver through the agency of Rome.

Mark 13;34-37
For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey,who left his house,and gave authority to his servants,and to every man his work,and commanded the porter to watch.
Watch ye therefore;for ye know not when the master of the house cometh,at even,or at midnight,or at the cockcrowing,or in the mourning;
Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
And what I say unto you I say unto all,Watch.

So you saying that Jesus isnt speaking of his coming and insted is speaking of the Romans coming?
How can you mistaken the Romans as the master of the house?Do you not understand Jesus is the master of the house?Anyways,Jesus spoke of the same instance in Mt 24 and also said to watch.

Mt 24;37-42
But as the days of Noah were,so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking,marrying and given in marriage,untill the day that Noah enterd into the ark,
And knew not untill the flood came,and took them all away;so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Then shall two be in the field;the one shall be taken,and the other left.
Two women shall be grinding at the mill;the one shall be taken,and the other left.
Watch,therefore;for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

The question is if your a preterist ,then what is there for you to watch?Why would Jesus command you to watch if there is nothing to watch?As I watch prophecies come to pass,Ive noticed the world doesnt pay attention to them nor do people even speak of them.I even watch as preterists say the things I watch ,happened long ago even though they are happening before thier own faces.Its obvious they dont watch but they also try to convince others not to watch as well.You can try to tell a preterist the time of the end wasnt 2000 years ago but they dont understand time kept ticking.They simply cant understand this.

2Peter3;10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,and the elements shall melt with a fervent heat;the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
This is speaking of the day that will come upon them as a thief for not watching.
But they have convinced themselves there is nothing to watch so I understand why they are not given sight to see prophecies unfold before them.

 

[Drew]

The question is if your a preterist ,then what is there for you to watch?Why would Jesus command you to watch if there is nothing to watch?.

You ask some good questions that I do not have time to address right now. I will say this - and I am sure you are expecting this - the real Achilles heel for the futurist appears to be this:

Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 29Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door. 30I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

I will re-assert my belief that the entire Mark 13 passage is about God's judgement to be visited on Jerusalem via the agency of Rome.

So to answer just one of your questions - the instruction to "watch" is an instruction to the very people Jesus was talking to- it is not for us in the 21st century. He is telling his contemporaries to watch for the coming judgment and flee from it.

And by the way, my overall position is that of a "partial-preterist", assuming I have a correct understanding of the relevant terminology.

 

[parousia70]

So what did those of Sardis watch for and what do you watch for?

According to your view, those in Sardis watched for no good reason. Indeed, according to your view, those in Sardis were MISLED into FALSELY believing Christ was returning in their Lifetime. Misled into that FALSE expectation by the Glorified Christ Himself! How do you reconcile that?

If you believe the prophecies that are being forfilled today were forfilled thousands of years ago then what is there for you to watch?

Php 2:19 NKJ
But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you shortly, that I also may be encouraged when I know your state.

Are you waiting and watching for Timothy's SOON arrival to you Shilohsfoal?

After all, Paul said Jesus was sending Timothy to YOU shortly, right?

 

[parousia70]

I will re-assert my belief that the entire Mark 13 passage is about God's judgement to be visited on Jerusalem via the agency of Rome.

AHHH... so you interprate this within the CONTEXT of the whole chapter?
WOW... that is unique, (For CF.net anyway)

So to answer just one of your questions - the instruction to "watch" is an instruction to the very people Jesus was talking to- it is not for us in the 21st century. He is telling his contemporaries to watch for the coming judgment and flee from it.

Which would make perfect sense.

 

[parousia70]

Mark 13;37
And what I say unto you I say unto all,watch.

I believe that this entire passage (Mark 13) has been largely misunderstood to be about the second coming. I think it is instead a reference to coming judgement on Jerusalem in 70 AD. In such a "preterist" view, what is the purpose of the above warning to "watch"? It is the warning to the believer to flee Jerusalem to escape the judgement that God will deliver through the agency of Rome.

Mark 13;34-37
For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey,who left his house,and gave authority to his servants,and to every man his work,and commanded the porter to watch.
Watch ye therefore;for ye know not when the master of the house cometh,at even,or at midnight,or at the cockcrowing,or in the mourning;
Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
And what I say unto you I say unto all,Watch.

So you saying that Jesus isnt speaking of his coming and insted is speaking of the Romans coming?
How can you mistaken the Romans as the master of the house?Do you not understand Jesus is the master of the house?

A couple things here.
First, In this parable, and EVERY OTHER PARABLE LIKE IT, the master of the House RETURNS TO THE VERY SAME PEOPLE HE LEFT IT TO, not their offspring, not thier descendants, not thousands of years later, but ALWAYS RETURNS within the lifetime of the original servants he left the house to. EVERY TIME.

Next, Jesus was to come "IN THE GLORY OF THE FATHER".

Christ's return at AD 67-70 was precisely in the manner and tradition of Yahweh's Old-Testament-era comings. We have countless examples of the Father coming in His great glory during the Old Testamental period (be sure to note the graphic, physical descriptions and explicit "visual" connotations of Yahweh's comings):

[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

[On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because you are turbulent more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my ordinances, neither have done after the ordinances of the nations that are round about you; therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you before the eyes of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations (Ez 5:7-9)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)

Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others: Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31. Habakkuk's depiction of Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai is nothing less than apocalyptic (Hab 3:3-16).

Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20).
Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).

 

[Prophecy Countdown]

Rev 3: 1. And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

At first it seems that the church is ‘dead.’

2. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

There are however a few ‘things which remain’ within the church of Sardis, even though they are ‘ready to die’ they need strengthening to be brought back into to main stream.

3. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

The things that the church of Sardis first heard and received were being lost, they needed to be held fast in their hearts and that ‘repentance’ was the key.
If however, IMHO they were to ‘watch’ in regard to these things then I see it as all going well for the church of Sardis.
If they did not do so then Jesus will come as a thief when they least expect it and that goes for all of us. See Mat 24: 42, 43. Mat 25: 13. Mark 13: 32, 33. 34 – 37.
These verses in Revelation are conditional upon their response to His warning of not being repentant.

4. Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

There were a few in the church of Sardis, that were found ‘worthy’ therefore not all hope was lost and the term ‘they shall walk with me in white’ is a reference to the wedding supper of Revelation 19: 7. “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.â€Â

8. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

The promised blessing received in Rev 19: 9, is found in Daniel 12: 12. “Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.â€Â

The 1335 days of the tribulation is within and up to the end of the 2300 ereb boqer called the time of the end mentioned in Daniel 8: ending at trumpet seven. See Rev 11: 15.

Rev 3: 5. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

6. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

The promise was also conditional on ‘overcoming’ to be clothed in white and entered into the book of life to those who confess and this is applicable to ‘what the Spirit saith unto the churches.â€Â

Shilohsfoal.
“I will re-assert my belief that the entire Mark 13 passage is about God's judgement to be visited on Jerusalem via the agency of Rome.â€Â

I don’t agree with those sentiments simply because ‘the entire Mark 13 passage’ was not fulfilled and most importantly the ‘abomination of desolation’ spoken of in Matt 24 and Mark 13 is within the four visions of Daniel 7: 8: 9, 10 – 12 and those visions are spoken of within Daniel 2: 41 – 45, which concerns the time of the end where God sets up His everlasting kingdom.
See Daniel 7: 17, 18, 22, 27, where at the time of the Lion with eagle’s wings, the bear, leopard and fourth beast God, sets up His kingdom.

The vision of Daniel 12: 11, speaks of the ‘abomination of desolation’ mentioned in Mathew 24: 15 Mark 13: which concerns the time of the end.

Daniel 8: 16. “And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.â€Â

To give Daniel understanding of the vision, Gabriel mentions the time of it.
17: “So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision."

Shilohsfoal.
“So to answer just one of your questions - the instruction to "watch" is an instruction to the very people Jesus was talking to- it is not for us in the 21st century. He is telling his contemporaries to watch for the coming judgment and flee from it.â€Â

I disagree because the warning is to watch for His second coming where He brings His reward with Him which is eternal life and that is something we all still wait for, that will occur at trumpet 7.
See 1 Corinthians 15. 49 – 58.

Luke 21: 36. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[parousia70]

The things that the church of Sardis first heard and received were being lost, they needed to be held fast in their hearts and that ‘repentance’ was the key.
If however, IMHO they were to ‘watch’ in regard to these things then I see it as all going well for the church of Sardis.
If they did not do so then Jesus will come as a thief when they least expect it and that goes for all of us. See Mat 24: 42, 43. Mat 25: 13. Mark 13: 32, 33. 34 – 37.
These verses in Revelation are conditional upon their response to His warning of not being repentant.

The only conditional part to Rev 2-3 is whether each Church would be punished or rewarded (according to their works, of course). If they were obedient, they were rewarded. If disobedient, punished. The idea that Christ was making his second coming to them conditional is nowhere in the text.

The larger obstacle to your view however, is that Jesus never teaches that he would come as a thief multiple times. You need it to be otherwise, but the scriptures do not support your view. Quite simply, Christ's coming as a thief is the second coming, and Jesus applies that to the first-century Church of Sardis:


--COMPARE THIS--

Matt 24:42-44
be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming...if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you think not

--TO THIS--

Revelation 3:1-3
"To the angel of the [first-century] church of Sardis write:...remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.


The giving of either a punishment or a reward was all that was conditional, and the condition was placed upon "their works" (Matt 16:27; Rev 20:13; Rom 2:6), which Jesus was then judging in Rev 2-3 (Rev 2:2, 2:9, 2:13, 2:19, Rev 3:2, 3:8, 3:15 ). The judging of their works took place in Revelation 2-3, back in the first century, and St. John documents it for us to read about.

The second coming itself was not conditional, and it was fulfilled exactly when Jesus and the apostles believed it would be--in their generation.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

The question is if your a preterist ,then what is there for you to watch?Why would Jesus command you to watch if there is nothing to watch?.

You ask some good questions that I do not have time to address right now. I will say this - and I am sure you are expecting this - the real Achilles heel for the futurist appears to be this:

Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 29Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door. 30I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

I will re-assert my belief that the entire Mark 13 passage is about God's judgement to be visited on Jerusalem via the agency of Rome.

So to answer just one of your questions - the instruction to "watch" is an instruction to the very people Jesus was talking to- it is not for us in the 21st century. He is telling his contemporaries to watch for the coming judgment and flee from it.

And by the way, my overall position is that of a "partial-preterist", assuming I have a correct understanding of the relevant terminology.

What is "this generation"?
Has it passed away?

It is written in the scripture ,there is nothing new under the sun.
Last time I looked at the people in Israel,they appear to be the same as they are described 2000 years ago.Are you sure "this generation"has passed away?

 

[Vic C.]

What is "this generation"?
Has it passed away?

This very question is being explored in the "101" thread.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

What is "this generation"?
Has it passed away?

This very question is being explored in the "101" thread.

I hadnt even read that thread.Thanks Vic,I see there are others who share the same view as myself.