I am a JW, why should I consider becoming a C

[westtexas]

I posted the whole chapter because it's simply too good to chop up. Notice throughout the chapter Jesus is glorifying the Father. Notice, specifically verse 3: "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God" Jesus could have easily said "taking in knowledge of US" ... but he called his Father the only true God, then referred to himself as merely the one that was sent forth. As for your question, note verse 20-21: "in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one."

So... all of us in the faith are one with them "Just as" they are one with each other. Do you believe you and I are God? Or, by serving him, are we simply unified with him?

Hello Mohrb, typically JW's do just as you have just done and focus on the verses that describe Jesus as a man and shy away from any verse that shows Jesus as God. Jesus was fully man and also fully GOD. JW's do just as you did and deny the deity of our Lord Jesus, which is why most Bible-believing Christians do not consider JW's Christian. You stated the JW's used the KJV until 1960 and then wrote your own version out of simplicity for reading the same version. That is almost laughable. Why did the JW's just not say "everybody bring a KJV"? The truth is there were other verses changed, besides John 1:1 as you stated, to do just as you have done and deny the deity of our Lord.
I would like to hear your description from a JW's point of view who Jesus is. Is He a God? Is He a man?Prophet? King? And then we can discuss it using scripture. I'll use only the KJV and show why it was necessary for the JW's to write another version. I'm looking forward to this discussion.

Westtexas

 

[Mysteryman]

If the only purpose of a JW was to encourage someone to study their bible more. Then there would be no purpose for their literature. Their literature is to promote what they believe, not suggest you read and study your bibles more.

When they come to my door, they feel out of place. The reason being, is that most of them have not studied enough to hold a clear and concise conversation with me.

They make a suggestive thought, and I respond with another suggestive comment, which they usaually have no answer for.

The problem I see, is that no matter as to whether or not one is a JW or SDA or any other Christian proposing its understanding of scripture. They first must be able to defend that which they believe. And most of the time, this will only cause any two groups to come to a stand off. Neither budging an inch.

And like any other group, they believe the same, that they have the truth, and that there is nor further need to study outside of their own group. I call it, birds of the same feather, flock together.

Their intentions might be sincere, but sincerity is no guarantee of truth.

Being satisfied with what one believes, means that one is not looking any further. They have found their resting place, or place of comfort. Jesus did not have a place to rest his head. Neither do I, in my search for the truth. Whenever I read or hear someone say that -- these are the essentials of faith in Christianity, I cringe. Truth is essential, not what some group or organization claims what is essential. And I despise the use of the word "cult". Even within what some so called "cults", are some truths. And even those who claim to know all truths, they themselves could very well be heresies.

It boils down between your walk with God. Either you have the truth, or you have a half truth, or even a total lie. God is the one who gives the increase. True Apostles and Prophets, plant and water. And the truth is for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

There are many false doctrines in the world, that have crept in Christianity. Many differing groups still hold to these many false doctrines and still can't tell the difference . And new false doctrines pop up just about every day.


"Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free"

 

[Mike]

I say live and let live. If you start pushing your own personal beliefs on other people youll push them away. If someone was destined to follow Christ he will come to them.

According to at least one of your own posts, you are a self-described liberal on faith matters. I find it hard to box with that type of dogma, because often times they're making their own truth up as they go along. They have nothing to base their beliefs on except to say they "feel" a certain way. They have no absolute Truth, and that's inherently flawed. There is one Truth, whether you reject it or believe it. Either we were created as man and woman from the start or evolved from single-celled life forms, one of those is right - one is wrong. They can't both be right. This is just one example of absolute Truth.

Going door to door as a Christian, I wouldn't "push" anything on anyone. They need to hear the Gospel message. If they reject it, then it is between them and God. Believe it or not, a lot of people Anytown, America havn't heard the Gospel as it's meant to be understood. And if they aren't anywhere with their faith, what are you pushing them away from? Spreading the Word with Love is essential to being a Christian.

 

[Mike]

By deeming every baptized member of the JW church as a minister, it appears clear that they are automatically locking everyone into the church all for good. This paragraph doesn't make sense to me. You in a sense deem all your members on the same level as we do our pastors, which the Bible and Christianity sets apart as a called office for certain people, not everyone. So in effect you have ministers ministering to ministers?

Where in the bible does it say that a person shouldn't preach? Where does it say that some should be "better" than others? Recall when the disciples were arguing about who was the greatest? Read Matthew 23:1-11.

Mohrb, I'd like to focus on how we are separate rather than who is correct. You believe in a doctrine that is different than mine, and I doubt either of us is going to change our own based on a web based thread. I'm not saying God can't make it happen, but I'm firm in my belief as I would assume you are. That said, I posed to you that JW's are NOT Christians, you said they are only a different denomination, and then went on to focus on the different beliefs you have and why you believe them. This only serves to make my point. JW's are not Christians. I'm sorry to be so blunt about it, and that JW's might feel insulted if I say it at their door.

To your point about everyone called to be ministers, here you get into semantics that JW's twist to meet their purpose. I could say everyone is a pastor, so we are all bound to our own pastoral office to uphold their responsibility. But I don't. There are ministers/pastors and there are lay-people. To make matters worse, JW's have their own Bible. We can't even compare scripture, because you have your own! I'm not familiar with your book, but I'll reference a clear quote from Ephesians 4 that specifically calls certain people to certain rolls within the Church.

11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

"14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work."

So, to answer your question, no, God does not call everyone to be ministers. If the JW church wants to call everyone who's baptized and bound to the responsibilities of that calling, that would be one of the number of perversions of God's Word. It also would be a "cop out" in my opinion when you say this is why a member of the JW church is treated a certain way when converting to Christianity. You can't compare our pastors to what you call "ministers".

You're welcome to your perspective of this. Likewise, I can hold the perspective that "You can't claim to be Christians, yet go against Christ's teachings and deny the God he spent his human life teaching us about." However... impugning your faith would be rather rude, wouldn't it?
:biglol

You can't claim the name of Christianity when the group of believers were first called "Christians" in Acts 11:26 (and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.) and the JW church was conceived in 1872. That's in effect, hijacking the church by the teachings of Charles Russell and taking the name of Christianity for yourselves. We are biblical Christians, the Body of Christ.

So to recap:
1. I said JW's are not Christians
2. You said they are, and that they are but a different denomination
3. You proceeded to stress the different beliefs and dogma of the JW church
4. Your parting point is that we can't claim to be Christians, yet go against Christ's teachings (as your group has reworded them to support your beliefs) which contradicts point 2 that you made.

Mohrb, I'm afraid this will come off as insulting, but it's not. One thing that you and I agree on, even if you didn't admit as much when we started conversing, is that our churches are not the same. There are Christians, and then there are JW's.

I'm afraid that WestTexas might have played right into your hands by asking how you believe JW's don't believe Christ is equal to God. Absolutely doubtless that your church spends a lot of time preparing people to defend this "unique" and blasphemous belief based on your reworded Bible. Mormons spend as much time preparing their members to defend their unique beliefs as well basing it on the Book of Mormon. The millions of dollars poured into your printing press operations in creating literature is quite an operation.

I believe we can have more of an honest conversation if you will not suggest we are both Christians and then end up saying we can not call ourselves Christians. Let us at least agree we are not in the same overall Church. I'm very sorry if my words come off harsh. They aren't meant to be, honestly. If we were sitting in the same room, I believe you would find I'm cordial in what I say.

Thank you for your time. :yes

 

[jasoncran]

my two cents on this is the jw consider the man of christ to be the son of god, but not the equal with God in total authority, as the throne has been given to him and he rules . but when the millenium ends he will cede that throne back to the father.

jesus is considered to be the archangel by the jw's and not part of the trinity as they dont accept the trinity. The father created jesus first then all the other things.

 

[happyjoy]

jesus is considered to be the archangel by the jw's and not part of the trinity as they dont accept the trinity. The father created jesus first then all the other things.

Do you think the difference between the two versions is a really big deal?

 

[westtexas]

jesus is considered to be the archangel by the jw's and not part of the trinity as they dont accept the trinity. The father created jesus first then all the other things.

Do you think the difference between the two versions is a really big deal?

The difference between the JW's view of Jesus and Christianity's view of Jesus are totally contradictory to each other. You don't think so????

Westtexas

 

[happyjoy]

jesus is considered to be the archangel by the jw's and not part of the trinity as they dont accept the trinity. The father created jesus first then all the other things.

Do you think the difference between the two versions is a really big deal?

The difference between the JW's view of Jesus and Christianity's view of Jesus are totally contradictory to each other. You don't think so????

Westtexas

I don't think the JW view that Jason explained is totally contradictory to me. It doesn't really sound all that different. They don't believe in a trinity. Jesus first was first creation.

 

[jasoncran]

jesus is considered to be the archangel by the jw's and not part of the trinity as they dont accept the trinity. The father created jesus first then all the other things.

Do you think the difference between the two versions is a really big deal?

yes. he was a diety. john 1:1 states that jesus was a diety! that he was GOD. not an archangel. we arent to worship an angel. when you see the angel of the lord thing that is bowed to take note that he is a christophne. meaning the preincarnate christ.

 

[jasoncran]

they aslo dont beleive in salvation. but that is another thread topic.

 

[Mohrb]

I tend to think in terms of modern times, my friend. I just can't justify what JW's do.

It's not the way everyone learn (and I agree, I DON'T go out super early on weekend days. In today's society, I consider that rude. Maybe in the 50's when people really felt bad about "sleeping in until 6:00 AM"... but not today. I know, I work nights... I usually don't even go to bed until 6:00 AM.)

However... there are a LOT of people that still find it encouraging. Even if they aren't interested in a formal study, let alone coming to a meeting some time... a lot of people DO respond well to the door to door ministry and are spiritually encouraged by it. That's more than enough reason to make the effort.

As a Biblical Christian, I would say we SHOULD be going door to door. I SHOULD be doing it more. My neighborhood is full of people with no faith or who are not engaged in their faiths.

Mohrb, gotta run. Look forward to sharing more. Thanks for your response!!

Not a problem, I'm enjoying the conversations :nag

 

[Mohrb]

Hello Mohrb, typically JW's do just as you have just done and focus on the verses that describe Jesus as a man and shy away from any verse that shows Jesus as God.

Such as?

Jesus was fully man and also fully GOD.

I'm aware that people hold this opinion... but I've yet to see a single (properly translated) verse that suggests this. The closest one is Isaiah 9:6, which does refer to Jesus as "EL" ... hoever, it's specifically "El-GIBHOR" (mighty god) Not "EL SHADDAI" (Almighty God). In English the order of magnitude between "Gibhor" and "Shaddai" are not as spectacular as they are in Hebrew. But, keep in mind, Psalms 82:6 refers to PEOPLE as "Elohim"... But -not- "Elohim Gibhor," let alone "Elohim Shaddai." (Not sure if the modifiers would be pluralized with "Elohim" as opposed to "El." I don't claim to be anywhere near fluent in Hebrew, although I do study what I can.)

JW's do just as you did and deny the deity of our Lord Jesus

As Jesus did when he said "The Father is greater than I," when he constantly stated that he came not to do his own will, but to serve his God's will, and in John 17 where (praying to his God) He said "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God." (notice "you"... not "us.")

which is why most Bible-believing Christians do not consider JW's Christian.

A person can just as validly claim that Bible-believing Christians do not consider trinitarians to be Christian. You choose to focus on verses that you believe support a trinity, but you can't deny that there at least is some very reasonable evidence to support monotheism.

You stated the JW's used the KJV until 1960 and then wrote your own version out of simplicity for reading the same version. That is almost laughable. Why did the JW's just not say "everybody bring a KJV"?

The NWT wasn't translated for the sake of simplicity. It was translated because the KJV was in old english. All the "thee"s and "thou shalt"s were awkward to read, and are not a part of proper, modern english (plus, they wanted to restore God's name to the bible). JWs were FAR from the only ones that wanted a modern translation. The "New King James Version" and the "NIV" were both translated within a few years after the NWT for the same reason, as well as many more translations in the following decades. That's the reason the NWT was translated when we already had the KJV.

The reason we specifically use the NWT as opposed to other modern translations is for the sake of simplicity.

If you really want to be picky about someone "changing the bible to match their doctrines" ... look at the KJV. Translating "gehenna" (the name of a city dump) as "Hell?!" Translating the name of God as the title "lord" to intentionally skew the lines between "LORD" and "Lord?" (People still honestly believe "Jesus is kurios" literally means that Jesus is the Father... and claim that this is an example of Jesus claiming the divine name as his own because they REALLY think that "Lord" is a proper translation of YHWH)...

I would like to hear your description from a JW's point of view who Jesus is. Is He a God? Is He a man? Prophet? King?

We believe that Jesus is the only-begotten Son of God, sent by God (1 John 4:9). He is "ho logos," the word (John 1:1); The firstborn of Creation, through which the rest of creation came into being (Colossians 1:15) and "through whom all things are, and we through him" (1 Corinthians 8:6). The fact that he's the firstborn of creation, and specifically God's begotten son proves to us that he was created. However, he is still our lord, savior (messiah), and high priest. We believe that he's God's chief messenger, the one who will eventually defeat satan, who will rule the earth for 1,000 years until the end of the final judgement at which point he will give all authority he was given back to his Father, so that God may be all in all (1 Corinthians 15:26-28).

Although he was sent in a human body, we do believe he was more than just human. Even before his earthly life, he was anointed by his God with the oil of exultation more than his peers (Hebrews 1:9)... however, being above humans doesn't automatically make one equal to God.

The only questions I don't think I covered was: "Is he a prophet" ... Not just a prophet. Although he did prophesy. If I said "he is a prophet" people would interpret this to mean he was "Just a prophet" IAW the islamic interpretation of Jesus.

Feel free to respond with similar detail. You can use only the KJV if you like. I don't mind using the KJV as well in most cases, unless there is a question as to the validity of the translation. In which case, I'll go to the original greek/hebrew (not just a translation that suits my argument).

But remember... even the KJV says "But to us there is but one God, the Father." ... the choice of "to us" as opposed to "for us" is a bit awkward... but that's beside the point.

 

[Mohrb]

If the only purpose of a JW was to encourage someone to study their bible more. Then there would be no purpose for their literature.

The purpose of the literature is a study guide. People tend to be more interested in studying a -topic- than if we were to knock on their door and just say "Please turn to Leviticus 1:1." An hour of straight bible reading is hard to digest. However, an hour discussion based on bible principle can be quite interesting.

When they come to my door, they feel out of place. The reason being, is that most of them have not studied enough to hold a clear and concise conversation with me.

That's possible. Everyone starts somewhere. However, based on your posting style here, I'd be willing to bet that you don't exactly greet them as you would a friend. Remember, by the time they get to your door, they've likely spent hours seeing happy people and quite angry ones. If you seem to have no interest in listening, and just feel like belittling our faith, it sort of sabotages the conversation from the get-go. "Not being interested in standing around while you berate us" isn't necessarily the same as "not knowing enough to be capable of a debate."

They make a suggestive thought, and I respond with another suggestive comment, which they usaually have no answer for.

Such as? Feel free to make any point you feel "we don't have an answer for" and I'll get you one. One of the joys of the internet is that I can always assume you have a smile on your face and a funny hat.

Their intentions might be sincere, but sincerity is no guarantee of truth.

I agree completely.

It boils down between your walk with God. Either you have the truth, or you have a half truth, or even a total lie. God is the one who gives the increase. True Apostles and Prophets, plant and water. And the truth is for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

:amen Absolutely! That's exactly the attitude I like

 

[Mohrb]

(I'm trying to respond to each person that asks me a question, in order... sorry for so many posts in a row)

First, one small one:

they aslo dont beleive in salvation. but that is another thread topic.

... yes, we do believe in salvation. We don't believe just saying "I accept Christ" and then living a life in complete contradiction to his teachings will still guarantee salvation. But, at the same time, contrary to what many will suggest, we don't believe that people "earn their salvation through works." Yes, Salvation is a free gift (Although JWs usually use the term "Undeserved kindness" as opposed to "Grace"... different term, same exact meaning). I suppose this really sums it up the best:

Is the Law, therefore, against the promises of God? May that never happen! For if a law had been given that was able to give life, righteousness would actually have been by means of law. 22 But the Scripture delivered up all things together to the custody of sin, that the promise resulting from faith toward Jesus Christ might be given to those exercising faith.

Obeying the law isn't what dictates righteousness or brings salvation. Faith brings salvation... but one must exercise faith... not simply say some magic sentence. Keep in mind

21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness. 24 “Therefore everyone that hears these sayings of mine and does them will be likened to a discreet man, who built his house upon the rock-mass. 25 And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and lashed against that house, but it did not cave in, for it had been founded upon the rock-mass. 26 Furthermore, everyone hearing these sayings of mine and not doing them will be likened to a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand. 27 And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and struck against that house and it caved in, and its collapse was great.

As for mjjcb: I think our discussion merits it's own thread. I think you and I can have a very meaningful one, and I don't want it getting lost in the rest of the conversations going on. Would you mind making a new thread and asking this again, and we can discuss all of this in detail as well as whatever other tangents you want?

I don't know if you want it in this subforum or the "1 on 1 debate" area... not sure where the most appropriate place to put it would be, otherwise I'd make it myself and just respond. Even so, I think it would make the most sense for you to start the thread, and then for me to respond, rather than me starting the thread -with- a response. That OK? Or would you prefer to continue the conversation specifically in this thread?

 

[Mohrb]

The difference between the JW's view of Jesus and Christianity's view of Jesus are totally contradictory to each other. You don't think so????

Again, I really would appreciate if you could think twice about phrasing things in such a way. I could just as easily say "The difference between the trinitarian view and what Christ taught about himself are totally contradictory! Don't you think so???????" :mad

Yes, there's a disagreement... either side can throw mud... but it'll never solve the disagreement.

 

[happyjoy]

jesus is considered to be the archangel by the jw's and not part of the trinity as they dont accept the trinity. The father created jesus first then all the other things.

Do you think the difference between the two versions is a really big deal?

yes. he was a diety. john 1:1 states that jesus was a diety! that he was GOD. not an archangel. we arent to worship an angel. when you see the angel of the lord thing that is bowed to take note that he is a christophne. meaning the preincarnate christ.

Eh, I don't see it as a big deal. I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

 

[Mysteryman]

If the only purpose of a JW was to encourage someone to study their bible more. Then there would be no purpose for their literature.

The purpose of the literature is a study guide. People tend to be more interested in studying a -topic- than if we were to knock on their door and just say "Please turn to Leviticus 1:1." An hour of straight bible reading is hard to digest. However, an hour discussion based on bible principle can be quite interesting.

When they come to my door, they feel out of place. The reason being, is that most of them have not studied enough to hold a clear and concise conversation with me.

That's possible. Everyone starts somewhere. However, based on your posting style here, I'd be willing to bet that you don't exactly greet them as you would a friend. Remember, by the time they get to your door, they've likely spent hours seeing happy people and quite angry ones. If you seem to have no interest in listening, and just feel like belittling our faith, it sort of sabotages the conversation from the get-go. "Not being interested in standing around while you berate us" isn't necessarily the same as "not knowing enough to be capable of a debate."
[quote:19d6bfnw]They make a suggestive thought, and I respond with another suggestive comment, which they usaually have no answer for.

Such as? Feel free to make any point you feel "we don't have an answer for" and I'll get you one. One of the joys of the internet is that I can always assume you have a smile on your face and a funny hat.

Their intentions might be sincere, but sincerity is no guarantee of truth.

I agree completely.

It boils down between your walk with God. Either you have the truth, or you have a half truth, or even a total lie. God is the one who gives the increase. True Apostles and Prophets, plant and water. And the truth is for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

:amen Absolutely! That's exactly the attitude I like [/quote:19d6bfnw]


Hi

Just so you feel reassured, I always greet whoever comes to my door , as a friend. But I am an up front kind of person. Which means, that when a JW makes it clear that they are here going door to door. I appreciate their enthusiasm, but also make it clear to them, that I am knowledgeable of the scriptures.

I am sure that less than 10 % of those whom they knock on doors, have much biblical knowledge. They have their church denominational values, but for the most part, that is it. They hold to tradition instead of biblical knowledge.

It is also my belief, that a JW is a Christian. Whether a follower, or a seed son of God, is totally up to God and not me to judge. Although, like the many other groups , have some very strange beliefs that I just can not accept.

I would like to say, that I am glad to make your acquaintance.

 

[jasoncran]

quote=jasoncran]they aslo dont beleive in salvation. but that is another thread topic.[/quote]
... yes, we do believe in salvation. We don't believe just saying "I accept Christ" and then living a life in complete contradiction to his teachings will still guarantee salvation. But, at the same time, contrary to what many will suggest, we don't believe that people "earn their salvation through works." Yes, Salvation is a free gift (Although JWs usually use the term "Undeserved kindness" as opposed to "Grace"... different term, same exact meaning). I suppose this really sums it up the best:

Is the Law, therefore, against the promises of God? May that never happen! For if a law had been given that was able to give life, righteousness would actually have been by means of law. 22 But the Scripture delivered up all things together to the custody of sin, that the promise resulting from faith toward Jesus Christ might be given to those exercising faith.[/quote

then why did they go out of the way to change the words from charis when translated to undeserved kindness in the nwt. You must be born again, if you arent then salvation has not occured and i did a thread on this. jw's dont accept nor see the born again as a commandment or as a need. that makes the concept of salvation of null effect. Ye must need to be born again. to see the kingdom of heaven.


http://www.watchtower.org/e/20090401/article_04.htm

 

[jasoncran]

ah that link limits the born again expericence to the 144,000 not the whole body. theres to types of 'salvation' in your jw doctrine.

i glanced at that link and read more in depth.

but from what i recall and know. that is a totally different concept of salavation as:
1) you dont accept the the dwelling of the lord inside the person
2) the ability to heal via prayer.(miracles)
3) you deny the trinity
4) it is works based as one can be disfellowshipped and loose your place in the earthly kingdom
5) you must perform in order to be in the above mentioned kingdom

i am aware that some things have changed since i was a jw twenty plus yrs ago.
and will accept that.

 

[essentials]

I say live and let live. If you start pushing your own personal beliefs on other people youll push them away. If someone was destined to follow Christ he will come to them.

According to at least one of your own posts, you are a self-described liberal on faith matters. I find it hard to box with that type of dogma, because often times they're making their own truth up as they go along. They have nothing to base their beliefs on except to say they "feel" a certain way. They have no absolute Truth, and that's inherently flawed. There is one Truth, whether you reject it or believe it. Either we were created as man and woman from the start or evolved from single-celled life forms, one of those is right - one is wrong. They can't both be right. This is just one example of absolute Truth.

Going door to door as a Christian, I wouldn't "push" anything on anyone. They need to hear the Gospel message. If they reject it, then it is between them and God. Believe it or not, a lot of people Anytown, America havn't heard the Gospel as it's meant to be understood. And if they aren't anywhere with their faith, what are you pushing them away from? Spreading the Word with Love is essential to being a Christian.

God blessed me with an open mind and freedom of thought. Whilst I might not be as traditional as you and others in regards to certain matters I am a worker of light. It is up to each individual to have an individual relationship with God.