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"I and the Father are One."

watchman F said:
I understand what you are saying I just don't believe it. You claim God is three seaparate and distinct indiviula persons/people/entinities, yet one being. That is not only irrational, but it is unscriptural.
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You are being purposely close-minded on this. Theologians have discussed this for over one hundred years before being defined at Nicea in 325, and it is unlikely that one would claim that the Trinitarian side is "irrational", if one was actually aware of the force of the arguments. Irrational arguments do not last over centuries and centuries. Nor are these arguments "unscriptural".

Regards
 
watchman F said:
I understand what you are saying I just don't believe it. You claim God is three seaparate and distinct indiviula persons/people/entinities, yet one being. That is not only irrational, but it is unscriptural.
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I disagree. (This is the old Drew back under a new name - I cannot logon as the "old" Drew)

I assume that we both believe that there indeed exists a "God the Father" Right?

And I assume that we agree that a person named Jesus existed and that what is written about Him in the New Testament is substantially correct. Right?

If you agree to this, then I will present a number of specifically scriptural arguments that compel one to conclude that Jesus believes that He is the embodiment of the God the Father.
 
Ponder this.:chin

258863950_dafa06e475.jpg


Now go read Edwin A. Abbott's Flatland.
Ponder again. Repeat as necessary.
...and I'm not saying God is a rodent.:nono2
 
francisdesales said:
You are being purposely close-minded on this. Theologians have discussed this for over one hundred years before being defined at Nicea in 325, and it is unlikely that one would claim that the Trinitarian side is "irrational", if one was actually aware of the force of the arguments. Irrational arguments do not last over centuries and centuries. Nor are these arguments "unscriptural".

Regards
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The Apostles never taught the Trinity, and those that dared oppose the higher class during or after the Cicean creed were silenced. The fact is the treaching of the trinity is not biblical.
 
drew take 2 said:
I disagree. (This is the old Drew back under a new name - I cannot logon as the "old" Drew)

I assume that we both believe that there indeed exists a "God the Father" Right?

And I assume that we agree that a person named Jesus existed and that what is written about Him in the New Testament is substantially correct. Right?

If you agree to this, then I will present a number of specifically scriptural arguments that compel one to conclude that Jesus believes that He is the embodiment of the God the Father.
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I have no issue with the deity of christ or the embodiment of the Father in Jesus Christ. I have a problem with the teaching that they are somehow two separate people. Furthermore I have a problem with trinitarians claiming they were separate and distinct while refusing to admit that that must mean they would have been separate beings.
 
watchman F said:
I have no issue with the deity of christ or the embodiment of the Father in Jesus Christ. I have a problem with the teaching that they are somehow two separate people. Furthermore I have a problem with trinitarians claiming they were separate and distinct while refusing to admit that that must mean they would have been separate beings.
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Well, I do have at least some sympathies with what you are saying here.

I have not thought about this very much but I would not be averse to suggesting that the concept of the Trinity unavoidably produces a certain degree of contradiction precisley because we may be trying to penetrate a mystery that we do not have the right "language" to properly deal with.
 
watchman F said:
The Apostles never taught the Trinity, and those that dared oppose the higher class during or after the Cicean creed were silenced. The fact is the treaching of the trinity is not biblical.
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The Apostles taught the basics or foundation of what would become Trinitarian doctrine. In other words, all the pieces were laid out, and the future Church put them together to define properly the relationship between the Father and Son while maintaining One God. Certainly, the Apostles taught Jesus was God, but was not the same person as the Father. There are not two (or three) gods, so Trinity explains the totality of the Apostolic teachings.

Your take on history is poor, to say the least. Trinitarians were silenced by Arians before, during and after the NICEAN Creed. Merely saying "the teaching of the Trinity is not biblical" is juvenile, quite frankly. Numerous Scriptures prove the fundamental steps that lead to the concept.

Regards
 
JudaicChristian said:
Would you guys like to debate the subject at my place? Debating Trinitarianism at this forum is against the rules.:yes
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Sorry, but don't you think that's a bit disingenuous? I never said that and it isn't stated in the rules. I said we weren't accepting any NEW Trinity threads. I posted that on the 14th. of July. This thread started on the 10th.

I'm more concerned about this:

Those who participate in the current threads and can't argue against the accepted view of a Triune God in an orderly and respectful fashion, will be subjected to the full force of the TOS, which have been rather lax lately.
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Vic C. said:
Sorry, but don't you think that's a bit disingenuous? I never said that and it isn't stated in the rules. I said we weren't accepting any NEW Trinity threads. I posted that on the 14th. of July. This thread started on the 10th.

I'm more concerned about this:
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Quote: "I said we weren't accepting any NEW Trinity threads." My understanding of that was "no Trinity debating." I have posted historical documentation before, and it went to Cyber Heaven. Lol:lol
 
In a marriage, according to Scripture, the wife has the subordinate position, and submits to her husband, but yet she remains equal...we are all 'one in Christ Jesus'. (Galatians 3:28) The husband and wife both make up one flesh, and yet the husband's function is to be the head while the wife's is to be a helpmeet.

God the Son willingly submitted to the Father. Jesus, being equal with God, became a man and humbled Himself, even unto death, the death on the cross, for our sakes. We are called to be like Him, to have this type of lowly spirit and esteem others better than ourselves. (Phillipians 2:1-9)

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one.
 
francisdesales said:
The Apostles taught the basics or foundation of what would become Trinitarian doctrine. In other words, all the pieces were laid out, and the future Church put them together to define properly the relationship between the Father and Son while maintaining One God.
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NOPE!!!!!
 
lovely said:
In a marriage, according to Scripture, the wife has the subordinate position, and submits to her husband, but yet she remains equal...we are all 'one in Christ Jesus'. (Galatians 3:28) The husband and wife both make up one flesh, and yet the husband's function is to be the head while the wife's is to be a helpmeet.

God the Son willingly submitted to the Father. Jesus, being equal with God, became a man and humbled Himself, even unto death, the death on the cross, for our sakes. We are called to be like Him, to have this type of lowly spirit and esteem others better than ourselves. (Phillipians 2:1-9)

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one.
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Can you show me a referencwe to ''God the Son'' in scripture? There are many references to God the Father, but not one to God the son or God the Holy Spirit.
 
I suspect that this is about semantics, but I do not want to think the worst. If we agree that Jesus is God, then these are some of the verses will show that He is God, the Son...

John 3:16 'For God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son...'
Matthew 3:17 'This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased...'
Matthew 4:3 'If you are the Son of God command these stones...'

I wonder if you would mind responding to my post now. You responded to me with questions...questions that have been posed, answered various ways, and posed again in my opinion.

To recap...

We have an earthly relationship that examples two flesh becoming one. I am not my husband and he is not me, but we are one flesh. Though equal, a wife willing submits, for the sake of laying down her life for the family...and ultimately God's Kingdom. The children see this example and follow, much like we see Christ's example and follow.
 
watchman F said:
Yes, God the Father incarnate, not a separate God.
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Again, you misunderstand the Trinitarian point, since the Father and the Son are not separate "gods"...

As to your response, all those times that Jesus was speaking to the Father, telling us He does the Will of the Father, and His discussion in the Garden - Who exactly was "the Father" speaking with, if the Father became incarnate??? Is this some trickery where Jesus is talking about a Father and the Father is really Him? Jesus is Truth, not what you are proposing.

Clearly, the Bible doesn't support "the Father became incarnate"... By reading and reflecting on Sacred Scriptures, the Church has identified the Father and the Son as two separate persons. There is no "pretend conversations" between Jesus and Himself as the Father...
 
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