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"I and the Father are One."

Hi Guys and Gals

I am new to this forum, but have come from another forum where the Trinity was hotly debated. I learned quickly from that debate that you cant just tell someone they are wrong. Basically you just end up with scripture v scripture interpretation v interpretation, and around and around it goes and everyone just gets frustraited and mad. Now the approach I have developed is to really try to understand their point of view, even if you dont beleive in it.

For example, a discussion I had with a 'trinitarian' ( I am not trinitarian in beleif ) started by discussing exactly what the Trinity means to them. Now you will find that even 'trinitarians' will differ on interpretation.
But basically what it came down to with this particular person is they Beleive in the 'God head' arrangement, ( this also differs to some people ) meaning they beleive in 3 seperate 'beings' God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy spirit. Now initially they said they beleived that all 3 are equal. Then I quoted scriptures where God the father: sends, gives spirit too, gives into his hands, puts his words into his mouth, commands Jesus. So inferring some kind of seniority of God the father. They did agree that there seems to be some kind of order to the God head. They did also point out that they beleive that nobody really 100% understands the God head / trinity.
 
zionwarrior said:
Hi Guys and Gals

I am new to this forum, but have come from another forum where the Trinity was hotly debated. I learned quickly from that debate that you cant just tell someone they are wrong. Basically you just end up with scripture v scripture interpretation v interpretation, and around and around it goes and everyone just gets frustraited and mad. Now the approach I have developed is to really try to understand their point of view, even if you dont beleive in it.

For example, a discussion I had with a 'trinitarian' ( I am not trinitarian in beleif ) started by discussing exactly what the Trinity means to them. Now you will find that even 'trinitarians' will differ on interpretation.
But basically what it came down to with this particular person is they Beleive in the 'God head' arrangement, ( this also differs to some people ) meaning they beleive in 3 seperate 'beings' God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy spirit. Now initially they said they beleived that all 3 are equal. Then I quoted scriptures where God the father: sends, gives spirit too, gives into his hands, puts his words into his mouth, commands Jesus. So inferring some kind of seniority of God the father. They did agree that there seems to be some kind of order to the God head. They did also point out that they beleive that nobody really 100% understands the God head / trinity.
Click to expand...

We Trinitarians do not believe that God is three separate beings. The main reason why you find disagreement among people on what the Trinity is is because it is a "secondary" issue to Protestants. Their religion focuses on "how do I get saved", it is much more personal (and some would say, egotistical). Thus, many Trinitarians agree with the concept, but don't understand the application, treating it as another esoteric Christian idea that has no or little value in one's spiritual life. I find this a huge mistake, as God should be the center of our spiritual life, and knowing about the Trinity helps us to understand God and offer Him proper praise.

Thus, whoever explained three beings was not being very careful, excuse the pun. There is one Divine Being, One Divine Nature, One Existence that simply Is. One God. This God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Three Persons who equally possess the entire Divine Nature, they do not share pieces of it. Relationship is part of the Trinity and from these relationships between Father, Son, and Spirit form the key essence of God - LOVE. Without relationship, there is no love. As the ideal marriage is "one flesh, but two persons", God is "one being, but three persons" with One Mind, One Will, and One Knowledge.

While some Christians read Scriptures in a subordinist manner, it doesn't take into account other Scriptures that suggest a total equality. The Word of God is EQUAL to the Father, the Father does not generate an inferior copy of Himself in His Mind. The Word that is begotten is of the exact same essence as the Father, thus possessing all of the abilities - but not having a separate will - as Jesus states. Some see subordination because they see God in human mannerisms - that one who is obedient must be subservient. However, this is a gross misunderstanding of what God is calling us to be - humble and obedient. This does not suggest that such a person is of lower rank.

The mission of the Word of God WAS to do just that, as man, that is the role of man before God. However, the Scriptures (despite stating Jesus came in the form of a slave) doesn't suggest that He gave up His dignity as God Himself. Remember, Jesus was the Second Adam, fully man, as well as fully God. We should EXPECT Jesus to be completely obedient to the Father, as the perfect man, something the first Adam failed to do!

The entire point of a mystery is that we cannot fully understand it. We cannot understand the incarnation, either. Or the Resurrection. Nor can we explain miracles or how the Church is the Body of Christ. Or how Jesus can hold a piece of bread and say "this is my body". It is a mystery because God's ways are not our ways. Mysteries exist so that we can HAVE the gift of faith in the first place - the act of believing something that is not completely "seen", whether physically or intellectually.

Regards
 
Hi Joe,

I agree with your understanding of a Triune God, but... you refer to Prots as having a "different" religion, as though they are some mongrel in the gene pool of Christianity. I wish you could be a bit more objective sometimes. Many non Catholics do have a grasp of the Trinity and there are many, many Catholics who do not. I can't remember how many times I've had conversations with Catholic friends and family about this very subject and found myself having to explain to them that Jesus IS God, just like the Father IS God.

So, what's up with that? Do they not listen or read their Bibles ( rhetorical questions) or are they falling asleep in your mass or do they just not go at all?

Just curious.
 
Vic C. said:
Hi Joe,

I agree with your understanding of a Triune God, but... you refer to Prots as having a "different" religion, as though they are some mongrel in the gene pool of Christianity. I wish you could be a bit more objective sometimes.
Click to expand...

I apologize if you read my comment that way, but it was not my intent on calling Protestants "mongrels". I have labored to provide some good will among us all - but this frustrates me a bit. Do you disagree with my comment that most of my separated brothers focus on salvation, rather than on Who God is? Have you actually read the many posts on Trinity and seen the confusion among these brothers? It is not because they are mongrels, but because they have been taught to focus on the works of Jesus Christ and salvation. Honestly, Vic, it is a focus more on self than on God. For Catholics who know the teachings of the Church and take them seriously, the Trinity is the heart of our religion, it is our highest point of focus, all else revolves around this idea of God as a Trinity.


Vic C. said:
Many non Catholics do have a grasp of the Trinity and there are many, many Catholics who do not. I can't remember how many times I've had conversations with Catholic friends and family about this very subject and found myself having to explain to them that Jesus IS God, just like the Father IS God.
Click to expand...

This is a matter of an individual having been poorly catechised, not because the focus of religion is incorrectly laid. There are numerous men and women in various Christian groups who do not take their faith in God and what it means very seriously, and thus, they don't make the effort to know what is taught. The point is what IS taught - and in the Catechism, it specifically calls the Trinity the central aspect of our faith. Do Protestant catechisms make such statements? No, they concentrate on Jesus' work and individual salvation, good points in their own right, but not on the same scale as "trinity".

Vic C. said:
So, what's up with that? Do they not listen or read their Bibles ( rhetorical questions) or are they falling asleep in your mass or do they just not go at all?
Click to expand...

Vic, there are not many Biblical statements where a homilist can than proceed to explain the Trinity. The homily after the reading purposely focuses on the Gospel and the readings leading to it. Understanding of the Trinity will depend more on Apostolic Tradition and training outside of Mass. As you know, many Catholics do not make the effort to learn their faith, which is why Protestant communities have so many former Catholics...

True religion is more properly atuning to God and Who He is. What He does depends upon Who He is, correct?

Thus, the God of Love explains the Death on the Cross.

Regards
 
I would like to have posted a historical fact about Trinitarianism, but I believe that it would be against the rules. I think everyone knows that I am a Non-Trin who was a Trinitarian most of my life.
 
If indeed the we are to beleive that Jesus is part of the 'God head' he is not equal to God the father. God the father is the one of seniority.
God the father gives the spirit to Jesus, he puts all things into his hands, he puts words into his mouth and he commands him.

1 Corinthians 11:3
3Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.


And in:

John 3:34 – For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for God gives the Spirit without measure. ( So here we see God the father has sent Jesus )
John 3:35 – The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into his hand. ( The Father gives all things into his hand, he doesnt already posess them ? )
Deuteronomy 18:15-19 Yahweh says: “I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him.†( Here God the father puts words into the mouth of Jesus and commands him )
 
I and the father are one has nothing to do with the trinity. That is the problem with those who try to fit scripture into the trinity!
Why did Jesus speak "ONLY IN PARABLES" ? AND WITHOUT A PARABLE HE DID NOT SPEAK WITH THEM!

Mat 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables;,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Mat 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in

parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

So I and the Father are one is a parable not literal.

Why are so many blinded to the fact that Jesus always spoke in PARABLES hard to be understood.

The apostles have much More bible understanding than any of us yet they could not understand Jesus's parables.

If to people agree on the same issue it is said there are one, on the issue, or they are in agreement.
The three Musketeers coined the phrase " One for all and all for one."
All were in agreement to fight as one.

The team played like" one" man today said the newspaper they were all in agreement to win the game , they acted as one.
Me and my buddy were inseparable our friends always said is was like we were one .
And a man shall leave his father and mother, cleave to his wife till they become one.

This post is not about the trinity . Try to answer without bringing in the trinity all the time. If you can!

Please study the old testament
 
zionwarrior said:
If indeed the we are to beleive that Jesus is part of the 'God head' he is not equal to God the father. God the father is the one of seniority.
God the father gives the spirit to Jesus, he puts all things into his hands, he puts words into his mouth and he commands him.

1 Corinthians 11:3
3Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.


And in:

John 3:34 – For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for God gives the Spirit without measure. ( So here we see God the father has sent Jesus )
John 3:35 – The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into his hand. ( The Father gives all things into his hand, he doesnt already posess them ? )
Deuteronomy 18:15-19 Yahweh says: “I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him.†( Here God the father puts words into the mouth of Jesus and commands him )
Click to expand...
I like your choice of words and the scripture you used.:thumbsup
 
watchman F said:
So explain to me the diference between the term persons, and beings? How can that be separate, distinct, individual persons if they are not separate, distinct, individual beings?
Click to expand...

A being is a combination of "person" and "nature". The "person" refers to WHO is doing the act, the "nature" is WHAT this being can do. Only rational beings have a personality. A being is an entity with a personality and a nature with which "he" can do something.

God has only one nature - thus, is only One Being. The Persons in the Godhead refer to relationships, not different beings with different wills and intellects. The Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Father in relational terms. But this relationship is part of WHO God is...

Regards
 
francisdesales said:
A being is a combination of "person" and "nature". The "person" refers to WHO is doing the act, the "nature" is WHAT this being can do. Only rational beings have a personality. A being is an entity with a personality and a nature with which "he" can do something.

God has only one nature - thus, is only One Being. The Persons in the Godhead refer to relationships, not different beings with different wills and intellects. The Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Father in relational terms. But this relationship is part of WHO God is...

Regards
Click to expand...
This is nothing more than double talk as fatr as I am concerned. If as you say the Father is not the Son who is not the Holy Spirit ect..., if they are separate distinct indivisual pesons the than are separate beings as well. Besides you belief that there wills were the same is falt out wrong and anti biblical. Jeus will was not the same ias the Fathers, He put His will aside to do what His Father willed.

Luke 24:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
 
watchman F said:
This is nothing more than double talk as fatr as I am concerned. If as you say the Father is not the Son who is not the Holy Spirit ect..., if they are separate distinct indivisual pesons the than are separate beings as well. Besides you belief that there wills were the same is falt out wrong and anti biblical. Jeus will was not the same ias the Fathers, He put His will aside to do what His Father willed.

Luke 24:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Click to expand...

That's your response? "I, Watchman, sayth so?"

A person is not equal to a being, philosophically speaking. Sure, when we are speaking of humans in normal life, a person = a being, since a human is one person with one will and intellect and with one nature. But when speaking philosophically, though, this is not the case. For starters, an individual person does not possess the fullness of human nature. I do not possess all of the abilities of human nature, nor do I have all possibilities of human nature even available to me. More careful exploration is necessary when addressing these terms, despite your outright dismissal based upon your "authority".

The Father and the Son have the same will. Nowhere does Scriptures relate that Jesus' will was opposed to the Father. Your citation states "let your will be done"!!! That's an agreement, friend. Where is the opposing wills here??? Thus, they share the same will. The Father desired that Jesus show the Love of God to the world in that manner, and Jesus desired to be so baptized.

Jesus' humanity naturally was repulsed by the thought of dying in such a manner, but Jesus' will was to die on the cross. I could cite a number of times He said this...

Regards
 
francisdesales said:
despite your outright dismissal based upon your "authority".

The Father and the Son have the same will. Nowhere does Scriptures relate that Jesus' will was opposed to the Father. Your citation states "let your will be done"!!! That's an agreement, friend. Where is the opposing wills here??? Thus, they share the same will.
Click to expand...
This is totally absurd if Jesus' will was the same as the Fathers then it would be totally unnesasarry for Him to say let this cup pass from me but never the less NOT MY WILL BE YOURS be done. You have obviously hardened your heart to the truth, because of your religious views.

Jesus' humanity naturally was repulsed by the thought of dying in such a manner, but Jesus' will was to die on the cross. I could cite a number of times He said this...
Click to expand...
Nothing you could site would change what scripture tells us Jesus said that night in Gathsemini
 
watchman F said:
The irrational of your response was proof enough that is was wrong, not to mention it didn't line up with scripture.
Click to expand...

Whatever. Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it irrational.

Jesus states that He does and speaks only what the Father does and says. Thus, there is no separate will.

Regards
 
francisdesales said:
Whatever. Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it irrational.

Jesus states that He does and speaks only what the Father does and says. Thus, there is no separate will.

Regards
Click to expand...
I understand what you are saying I just don't believe it. You claim God is three seaparate and distinct indiviula persons/people/entinities, yet one being. That is not only irrational, but it is unscriptural.
 
watchman F said:
This is totally absurd if Jesus' will was the same as the Fathers then it would be totally unnesasarry for Him to say let this cup pass from me but never the less NOT MY WILL BE YOURS be done. You have obviously hardened your heart to the truth, because of your religious views.
Click to expand...

This is the tactic of someone who cannot do much in the way of explaining. Question the religious heart of another believer... "Obviously", you don't know me from Adam based upon a few responses on such a narrow subject...

Perhaps you should open your MIND to other explanations...

Jesus said a number of things meant for His followers that He didn't need to say. For example, when He called upon His Father in the raising of Lazarus. Jesus explains why He has an oral conversation for others to hear with the Father. Same with His conversation with the Father in the Garden. Jesus is a hypostatic union of man and God. He has a human will and the Divine Will. His humanity did not desire to die, but the Will that is key here is Jesus will to obey the Father BY having the same will. Did He not die?

watchman F said:
Nothing you could site would change what scripture tells us Jesus said that night in Gathsemini
Click to expand...

This goes back to arguing your point of view from a couple verses of the Bible, ignoring the REST of the Word of God. Read the Word of God and THEN form theological thoughts...

I do not find ANYWHERE in Scriptures that tell us that Jesus' conversation in the Garden are of some sort of "super-canon" level that override what ELSE Jesus says in the Bible...

Regards
 
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