"I Believe" Does That Mean I'm Saved?

[GodsGrace]

What do you think was said? What I said is that regarding faith or belief no one but God really knows what any person "really" believes or what their "real" faith consists of in any case.

Works salvation people can't even come up with a definitive list that puts them in or out, one way or another.

Anyone can do lip service to various postures.

Not as many are good at it.

Gratuitous citing:

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I was actually addressing your claim of believers denying Jesus, and referenced Peter as one example of many among examples with the disciples, in response to your sight, here:


Which of course Peter did quite dramatically.

I've always sought the middle ground on this particular subject as there are more capable sights from the scriptures to view for any believers failures OTHER THAN the believer themselves. And a great case can be made that the deceptions of Satan are actually of Satan and not of the supposedly fallen believer....

and in reverse order, Satan or devils in any person can say they know Jesus and it would do them no good, such as here:

Luke 4:41
And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.

These subjects are actually much more interesting when all the parties are brought to bear.

Fortunately Jesus knows who is who.

I've heard just about every 'excuse' there is for Peter. Fact is Peter denied Jesus at the critical moment and it couldn't have went down any other way, because Jesus said so. Peter was in short, pawned by deception/the deceiver, internally, upon his mind. It's not like this was a new phenomena. Every sinner and every fallen believer is likewise deceived. 1 John 3:8 demands that the devil comes into the theological equations for any deceptions/sins.

I believe Peter was 'internally deceived' by Satan in that event. The fact that Jesus foretold that Peter would do it just adds more flavor to Jesus knowing what the "enemy" will do before it's done.


There is zero reason for me to see only Peter in these matters. Denial of the Lord is a common tactic of the enemy of our soul and that activity does transpire in our flesh inclusive of mind/heart whether we like it or not.

I am very cognizant of this "internal deception" of another party when I share to RESTORE believers who have been likewise internally deceived.

There really is more going on in these matters under the surface, than just the believer.

We are all QUITE actively hunted and are enemies of the deceiver.

The last thing on my mind is to condemn the fallen believer when there are other directions to look to.

I don't think Jesus ever leaves any believer, whether they like it or not OR whether they deny Him or not.

Jesus is just as much about the business of judging our enemies as well. So, the fallen believers, if nothing else, serves to that end. I can still see our Savior really 'saving' them regardless.

Hi Smaller,

Thanks for explaining your post to me. I agree that only God knows the heart of man - but we can post what we believe and it should be taken at face value.

You bring up Peter's denial of Jesus and it's a very important point.
Peter was at Jesus side for about 3 years. He was able to declare to his Lord:
“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Mathew 16:16

So what do you suppose happened to cause Peter to deny Jesus when asked if he knew Him?
The N.T. uses the word "deny" in Mathew 26:72 NAS.

Fear happened. Jesus knew Peter would deny Him because Peter would be afraid. Just as all the other apostles were very fearful on the evening of Jesus' trial. They all disappeared from Jerusalem and went into hiding as can be seen in John 20:19a. Probably in Mary and Martha's house in Batania, a short distance from Jerusalem.

So out of fear Peter denied Jesus. We're weak and fear could take over. But this is not the same as abandoning Jesus.

You repeat that Jesus will never leave us nor forsake us. Hebrews 13:5 NIV states this and right after that it says that man should not be afraid of man -but, alas, many times we are. But, I repeat, that denying is not the same as abandoning. Abandoning is an action of the will and mind and heart while denying is a speaking which may or may not be true.

But the concept that runs all through the N.T. is NOT that Jesus will leave us, but that WE will leave HIM.
He is faithful and will not abandon us, but we are able to abandon Him if we so decide.

We abandon Jesus when we reject Him and His teachings, when we say we are no longer interested in serving God. Mathew 10:22 is very clear. Jesus, in His own words says that he who endures to the end will be saved.

How do you get around that?

Wondering

 

[smaller]

Hi Smaller,

Thanks for explaining your post to me. I agree that only God knows the heart of man - but we can post what we believe and it should be taken at face value.

I'd take the same at face value for anyone who says they believe. The benefit of the doubt is, imho, a required threshold to even be able to dialog with believers. Cutting the details into an assortment of pieces in order to potentially condemn other christians doesn't compute for my heart. And therein of course resides the "trap" that is set for our hearts if we are not generous to a fault in these matters. Without such we ourselves fall into potential condemnation.

You bring up Peter's denial of Jesus and it's a very important point.

Of course it is. It is the most obvious denial of Christ in the entire N.T. I think any of us can see that Jesus did NOT abandon Peter over this matter. I can logically make that same extension to any believer on this basis.

Peter was at Jesus side for about 3 years. He was able to declare to his Lord:
“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Mathew 16:16

So what do you suppose happened to cause Peter to deny Jesus when asked if he knew Him?
The N.T. uses the word "deny" in Mathew 26:72 NAS.

All denials, deceptions, doubts, partial sight, etc are demonically influenced in the flesh of every believer, and everyone, to some extent or another.

Fear happened.

All of us naturally fear death. That's the way we're made. And God made us that way. Why wouldn't we fear? That's an entirely natural reaction of the flesh. Pretty sure Peter was familiar with what happened to people who were "crucified." That alone would be enough to deter disobedience to Roman authorities. Again, a very natural inclination on Peter's part. A gazillion things could have been running through Peter's mind in this matter. We really don't know however.

What we do know is that Jesus called this matter before it happened. And there are reasons that He did so. Peter could not have done anything to avoid making what Jesus said come to pass. That's the important thing to keep in mind. The Words of the God of all of creation would have had to fail had Peter done otherwise. And that was just not going to happen.

Part of this will harken back to O.T. prophecies, for example that the Shepherd would be struck, and the sheep, 'scattered.' That's what happened with all of the disciples, not just Peter.

Mark 14:27
And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.

Jesus knew Peter would deny Him because Peter would be afraid. Just as all the other apostles were very fearful on the evening of Jesus' trial. They all disappeared from Jerusalem and went into hiding as can be seen in John 20:19a. Probably in Mary and Martha's house in Batania, a short distance from Jerusalem.

They couldn't have done anything any other way. It was in fact predetermined, just as the betrayal of Judas was likewise predetermined. Peter had no choice. Neither did Judas. God would have had to be WRONG in order for them to have not done what they did, and that was not going to happen.

So out of fear Peter denied Jesus. We're weak and fear could take over. But this is not the same as abandoning Jesus.

I don't see how it can be viewed any other way but than for the obvious denial of Christ that it was, because that is what we are told that it is. Specifically "deny me thrice." Once apparently was not enough to drive home the point.

You repeat that Jesus will never leave us nor forsake us.

Yes, that is what I believe. And even if/when I don't, Jesus remains Truthful. My sights of it are only that. It is not in my power to control Jesus nor is it in the power of anyone else, as much as some think it is. If some blinded deluded believer makes those kinds of claims I would chalk it up to demonic deception in that person's flesh.

If and when Jesus wants to jerk the slack out of 'em that can also happen. It's just not our call on these things.

Jesus does have power over all flesh. If Jesus wanted to "force" everyone on the planet to believe, it could happen in the next instant.

John 17:2
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Hebrews 13:5 NIV states this and right after that it says that man should not be afraid of man -but, alas, many times we are. But, I repeat, that denying is not the same as abandoning. Abandoning is an action of the will and mind and heart while denying is a speaking which may or may not be true.

I don't think what the person thinks has much to do with any of it quite frankly. It's what Jesus does that matters. The flesh is expected to be sorely deceived in many ways, and we are all attached to it in this present life. My expectations of the flesh are less than zero. It's factually contrary to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17. And equally vain is trumpeting flesh, such as we see with Peter saying this:

Luke 22:
33 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.

So we not only have denial, but lying to Jesus to His Face and failing to keep his word.

These things tell us a lot about "deception." They should never be used to condemn Peter. Or any other believer in their fallen state. We should learn about our enemies from these matters, and not condemn the fallen.

We also know that Satan desired Peter, more than once. Even speaking from Peter's own lips!

This should make us sit up and realize that there is more going on in these matters than "just Peter." There is God's Will involved, there is Satan and his devils, also involved. It is quite pointless to view any individual apart from the other parties.

We are just used to having our own flesh and the deceptions therein insulate and justify ourselves and are almost instantaneously led also to condemn others by that same working. The flesh is kind of a bad deal all around, anyway we look at it.

But the concept that runs all through the N.T. is NOT that Jesus will leave us, but that WE will leave HIM.

I'm not that fond of circular reasoning. Jesus either leaves us or He doesn't. If He doesn't then we can't logically leave Him. This can't be played both ways as so many try to do.

He is faithful and will not abandon us, but we are able to abandon Him if we so decide.

We don't get to decide for Jesus. Thank God.

We abandon Jesus when we reject Him and His teachings, when we say we are no longer interested in serving God. Mathew 10:22 is very clear. Jesus, in His own words says that he who endures to the end will be saved.

How do you get around that?

Wondering

There are a lot better ways to look at judgments in the scriptures. For example, you cite Him and His teachings and serving Him, and being interested in Him, but you do understand that no matter what any person does, their flesh is not afforded any benefits of any of that, because it's CONTRARY to the Spirit, and that will not change. This contrary state of the flesh however constantly tries to insert itself into the equations as being NON-CONTRARY, and there is the beginning of deception.

We'd all be much better off giving our own contrary flesh the boot, rather than worry about Jesus remaining TRUE to His Word.

He Will Remain True To His Word, Period.

Matthew 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

People who think that Jesus rotates in and out of them as they perform adequately or not, haven't even set foot into discipleship.

 

[smaller]

I think the question that those who think Jesus does leave people should be, what if you are wrong?

Do you really want to face Jesus with claims that He left, when He didn't? You could very well be an opposer yourself in this approach.

The people who were rewarded in Matt. 25's account of sheep, did NOT KNOW that they were serving Jesus "in the least" of the those they served. They were clueless, but served regardless.

Serve, and do not condemn. We'll all come out better in the end by doing this anyway. Not one of us sits in the Eternal Judgment Chair to anyone else's eternal fate to the ILL side. So who are these people who would think they can rise to that anyway?

Romans 8:
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I'll add my own synopsis: Nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ. Nothing.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'd take the same at face value for anyone who says they believe. The benefit of the doubt is, imho, a required threshold to even be able to dialog with believers. Cutting the details into an assortment of pieces in order to potentially condemn other christians doesn't compute for my heart. And therein of course resides the "trap" that is set for our hearts if we are not generous to a fault in these matters. Without such we ourselves fall into potential condemnation.

Of course it is. It is the most obvious denial of Christ in the entire N.T. I think any of us can see that Jesus did NOT abandon Peter over this matter. I can logically make that same extension to any believer on this basis.

All denials, deceptions, doubts, partial sight, etc are demonically influenced in the flesh of every believer, and everyone, to some extent or another.

All of us naturally fear death. That's the way we're made. And God made us that way. Why wouldn't we fear? That's an entirely natural reaction of the flesh. Pretty sure Peter was familiar with what happened to people who were "crucified." That alone would be enough to deter disobedience to Roman authorities. Again, a very natural inclination on Peter's part. A gazillion things could have been running through Peter's mind in this matter. We really don't know however.

What we do know is that Jesus called this matter before it happened. And there are reasons that He did so. Peter could not have done anything to avoid making what Jesus said come to pass. That's the important thing to keep in mind. The Words of the God of all of creation would have had to fail had Peter done otherwise. And that was just not going to happen.

Part of this will harken back to O.T. prophecies, for example that the Shepherd would be struck, and the sheep, 'scattered.' That's what happened with all of the disciples, not just Peter.

Mark 14:27
And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.

They couldn't have done anything any other way. It was in fact predetermined, just as the betrayal of Judas was likewise predetermined. Peter had no choice. Neither did Judas. God would have had to be WRONG in order for them to have not done what they did, and that was not going to happen.

I don't see how it can be viewed any other way but than for the obvious denial of Christ that it was, because that is what we are told that it is. Specifically "deny me thrice." Once apparently was not enough to drive home the point.

Yes, that is what I believe. And even if/when I don't, Jesus remains Truthful. My sights of it are only that. It is not in my power to control Jesus nor is it in the power of anyone else, as much as some think it is. If some blinded deluded believer makes those kinds of claims I would chalk it up to demonic deception in that person's flesh.

If and when Jesus wants to jerk the slack out of 'em that can also happen. It's just not our call on these things.

Jesus does have power over all flesh. If Jesus wanted to "force" everyone on the planet to believe, it could happen in the next instant.

John 17:2
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

I don't think what the person thinks has much to do with any of it quite frankly. It's what Jesus does that matters. The flesh is expected to be sorely deceived in many ways, and we are all attached to it in this present life. My expectations of the flesh are less than zero. It's factually contrary to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17. And equally vain is trumpeting flesh, such as we see with Peter saying this:

Luke 22:
33 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.

So we not only have denial, but lying to Jesus to His Face and failing to keep his word.

These things tell us a lot about "deception." They should never be used to condemn Peter. Or any other believer in their fallen state. We should learn about our enemies from these matters, and not condemn the fallen.

We also know that Satan desired Peter, more than once. Even speaking from Peter's own lips!

This should make us sit up and realize that there is more going on in these matters than "just Peter." There is God's Will involved, there is Satan and his devils, also involved. It is quite pointless to view any individual apart from the other parties.

We are just used to having our own flesh and the deceptions therein insulate and justify ourselves and are almost instantaneously led also to condemn others by that same working. The flesh is kind of a bad deal all around, anyway we look at it.

I'm not that fond of circular reasoning. Jesus either leaves us or He doesn't. If He doesn't then we can't logically leave Him. This can't be played both ways as so many try to do.

We don't get to decide for Jesus. Thank God.

There are a lot better ways to look at judgments in the scriptures. For example, you cite Him and His teachings and serving Him, and being interested in Him, but you do understand that no matter what any person does, their flesh is not afforded any benefits of any of that, because it's CONTRARY to the Spirit, and that will not change. This contrary state of the flesh however constantly tries to insert itself into the equations as being NON-CONTRARY, and there is the beginning of deception.

We'd all be much better off giving our own contrary flesh the boot, rather than worry about Jesus remaining TRUE to His Word.

He Will Remain True To His Word, Period.

Matthew 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

People who think that Jesus rotates in and out of them as they perform adequately or not, haven't even set foot into discipleship.

Smaller,

In your last sentence you seem to be speaking of works. I'm not speaking of works. Works don't save you.
Ephesians 2:8 plainly says that we are saved by God's grace through our faith in Him. We must say though, that works are a product of salvation and, I'd say, even a sign of salvation. For who would not want to help his brother after having seen the love God has for us? James 2:14-17 tell us that faith without works is dead.
It says that we are to clothe and feed our brothers.

So it's not enough to just say that I believe, it has to be demonstrated in some way. Some transformation should take place, 2 Corinthians 5:17 - old things are passed away, and we are made into new creatures.
It's not enough to just SAY we believe, but that belief has to get from our head to our heart.

Mathew 7:16-18. We will know a good tree because it bears good fruit. It's speaking of false prophets but applies to all. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit. Of course, each of us is on our own journey and we're not to judge the soul of anyone.

I was speaking rather, to the difference between denying God in a moment of weakness and abandoning Him and not wish to be a disciple any longer. I see a distinction between the two. Abandonment is a sure act and leaves God behind and one would no longer journey with Him. I do see a distinction.

As far as believing is concerned, i think the Marriage Feast is very interesting. What to you think Mathew 22:14 is speaking about? What are the wedding clothes? And why are few chosen?
I believe the wedding clothes refer to Jesus. We are properly clothed in Him.
Romans 13:14
Galatians 3:27

Many, or, all are called - but few are chosen - depending on what clothes you wear. So the "clothes" have to be right but then in Galatians 4:19 Paul tells the Galatians that he's waiting for Christ to be formed in them - again alluding to the transformation which will most assuredly come with salvation.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

I think the question that those who think Jesus does leave people should be, what if you are wrong?

Do you really want to face Jesus with claims that He left, when He didn't? You could very well be an opposer yourself in this approach.

The people who were rewarded in Matt. 25's account of sheep, did NOT KNOW that they were serving Jesus "in the least" of the those they served. They were clueless, but served regardless.

Serve, and do not condemn. We'll all come out better in the end by doing this anyway. Not one of us sits in the Eternal Judgment Chair to anyone else's eternal fate to the ILL side. So who are these people who would think they can rise to that anyway?

Romans 8:
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I'll add my own synopsis: Nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ. Nothing.

Now you're speaking again to being separated from Christ.

Romans 8 is saying that nothing can separate us from the love of of God which is in Christ Jesus. Conditions, for example. We might be sick or feeling oppressed. If we wish to remain in Christ, nothing can separate us. Principalities - the real powers around us that are set to destroy us. But God is stronger.

Are you saying that we, ourselves, cannot decide to abandon God?

Wondering

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Now you're speaking again to being separated from Christ.

Romans 8 is saying that nothing can separate us from the love of of God which is in Christ Jesus. Conditions, for example. We might be sick or feeling oppressed. If we wish to remain in Christ, nothing can separate us. Principalities - the real powers around us that are set to destroy us. But God is stronger.

Are you saying that we, ourselves, cannot decide to abandon God?

Wondering

I love your new avatar.

 

[JLB]

How is that a refutation?,

You've failed to prove your opinions.

Because it uses scripture and context and the words of Jesus to show how what you are trying to teach is unbiblical.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Please explain how a person who was in Christ, then was removed from Christ, and winds up thrown into the fire and burned, still has eternal life?


JLB

 

[JLB]

So, until you can prove from the whole counsel of God that to be "broken off" means specifically loss of etrnal life, you have no point, no refutation, no nothing.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Romans 8:
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I'll add my own synopsis: Nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ. Nothing.

Amen. I'd just like to emphasis the importance of "things present nor things to come". What Paul is saying here is there is nothing in the present or FUTURE that can separate us from God's love.

That would include anything and everything that occurs now or later.

This principle is also taught in 1 Thess 5:4-10:

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober,
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Paul begins by contrasting believers from unbelievers in v.5.
Then he admonishes believers to not do what unbelievers do in v.6.
Then he explains what unbelievers do in v.7.
Then he again emphasizes what believer are to do: be sober, alert in v.8.
He reminds believers of what God destined believers for; not wrath but salvation in v.9.
Then, in v.10, he says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle (aware or asleep), we will live together with Him.

This isn't a "license to sin" as the conditional security folk would have it, but a reason to be alert and sober out of the gratitude for the fact that no believer is destined for wrath, but for salvation.

This passage clearly establishes that the believer's lifestyle has no bearing on our salvation, period.

But, Paul wrote about dire warnings regarding sin and disobedience in other epistles. Divine discipline cannot be taken lightly, as if only a slight slap on the wrist or something equally stupid.

God's discipline can include being turned over to Satan for "the destruction of the flesh" (1 Cor 5:5) which is a clear statement of a very painful physical death. Paul made a similar statement in 1 Tim 1:20.

 

[FreeGrace]

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Please explain how a person who was in Christ, then was removed from Christ, and winds up thrown into the fire and burned, still has eternal life?JLB

Once again I've proven from Scripture that no believer can be removed from Christ, as all believers have been sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is a promise and guarantee to God's own possession (believers) for the day of redemption.

Do you believe that God breaks His promise and guarantee here?

 

[smaller]

This isn't a "license to sin" as the conditional security folk would have it, but a reason to be alert and sober out of the gratitude for the fact that no believer is destined for wrath, but for salvation.

There is no believer who is sinless in any case of sights, so the entire "license to sin" argument is a moot point. 1 John 1:8 shows that we can't even say we have no sin and be in truth.

This passage clearly establishes that the believer's lifestyle has no bearing on our salvation, period.

No lifestyle is going to produce sinlessness, that's for sure.

But, Paul wrote about dire warnings regarding sin and disobedience in other epistles. Divine discipline cannot be taken lightly, as if only a slight slap on the wrist or something equally stupid.

There is a "present penalty" for sins in the flesh. God has assured us that what we sow, we reap. Gal. 6:7. This has no bearing on the eternal state, as to getting there. And yes, being "in faith" does mean having chastisements and tribulations from God.

God's discipline can include being turned over to Satan for "the destruction of the flesh" (1 Cor 5:5) which is a clear statement of a very painful physical death. Paul made a similar statement in 1 Tim 1:20.

I think you and I have somewhat different views on the ways and whys of judgments, but we both end up at the same finish line, so it's a side notion as far as I'm concerned. It's just an area that I have been led to examine more closely over a long period of time, and precisely because of chastisements that I did not feel were my due. I found out that that they were my due regardless of my personal performance levels.

 

[smaller]

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

JLB

No amounts of performance are going to produce a state of sinlessness. This much should be openly obvious to any believer past the point of about 6 months or so into faith.

What measures are you using to determine abiding? Sin? I might think it mandatory that to abide in Christ at a minimum is to love our brethren, not cast them in our minds and hearts into eternal torture over sin, which we all have in common in any case. That really is the epitome of hypocrisy. I might even say that the hypocrisy mindset is a present penalty that God imposes on those who have fallen into it.

In the case of a believer, we know for no uncertain fact that we do have spiritual enemies. Yes, unseen spiritual adversaries. Of course these adversaries would attempt to get us to see in the exact opposite way that we should see.

Is it possible that a believer can be blinded? How about partially blinded? Seeing in part means to be partially blinded.

None of that indicates loss of eternal salvation, having once, one time, called upon the Jesus to save us. It is Jesus that saves, not destroys. Is unbelief a sin? Of course it is. Is this sin not taken away from the believers account? Yes, it is.

John 16:9
Of sin, because they believe not on me;

We can see that 'believe not' is a sin. And a sin that will not be held against a believer who has been recaptured by our enemies.

IT does not pay to condemn any fallen believer. We are commanded to do the opposite, to restore them, by understanding they have been taken by an enemy that is not them. In many cases such restoration is much more difficult, particularly when we base such restoration on potential condemnation, and in the process, ourselves falling headlong into condemnation of them for the very sins that we "want" to have Jesus not hold against us.

We can't say our "sin" is any different than theirs.

The scriptures are set up interestingly. There is ample room to be gracious. More than ample. And there is room to show a person their own vile heart when they fail to judge their own sins in the proper light. Hebrews 4:12.

When it comes to judgements, there are other far more legitimate avenues in scripture to examine than condemnation of believers who have been deceived. The quickest way to avoid condemnation is to understand that IS the devils game:

1 Timothy 3:6
Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

Galatians 6:1
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

 

[smaller]

Now you're speaking again to being separated from Christ.

Romans 8 is saying that nothing can separate us from the love of of God which is in Christ Jesus. Conditions, for example. We might be sick or feeling oppressed. If we wish to remain in Christ, nothing can separate us. Principalities - the real powers around us that are set to destroy us. But God is stronger.

Are you saying that we, ourselves, cannot decide to abandon God?

Wondering

Every believer who sins is deceived and we are all sinners regardless of any measures applied. Unbelief is also a sin. And yes, it is perpetrated by principalities that are NOT the believer. So, given a choice which direction will you look for judgments? On the fallen believer or on the principality(s) involved?

I think that answer is obvious.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

This is a one time event that brings an instant change in eternal status, that Jesus brings about, not the person. It was never left in the hands of the person to begin with. Such things are not left to chance, in the hands of children, but remain in the Domain of God in Christ regardless.

He Honors His Own Words and Promises regardless of the persons.

 

[smaller]

So it's not enough to just say that I believe, it has to be demonstrated in some way.

Calling upon Jesus to save is the demonstration. People can't do this except by the Holy Spirit to begin with.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Some transformation should take place,

Transformation is from God. We do not originate our own transformation. Why do you see the need to set up performance standards past the point of entry into faith? That is the essence of works based salvation.

I was speaking rather, to the difference between denying God in a moment of weakness and abandoning Him and not wish to be a disciple any longer. I see a distinction between the two.

Anyone who has been around awhile has seen believers curse God and abandon God in times of trouble. It's quite common. A little pressure and voila. Instant denial and abandonment. That doesn't mean they are on auto-cook.

It does mean they have been deceived by the pressures of life, when their lotto ticket didn't turn out to be a winner in this present life. But that could very well be just a sign of BAD TEACHING as much as anything. So, ya wanna drag the teachers into it as well? These are the kinds of questions that we should ask ourselves.

Abandonment is a sure act and leaves God behind and one would no longer journey with Him. I do see a distinction.

And I will see a believer who has been captured in their minds and hearts by enemies that are not them. And what perfect timing these enemies have, always showing up in times of trouble. Go figure. And who would they turn to? Some person who is going to immediately drag them to the possible pits of hell. Oh, yeah, I have a whole bunch of such 'friends in the faith.' At a distance, by my preference. They show up just like enemies themselves. Again, go figure.

I've had a couple friends who were believers that committed suicide. The pressures of life were unfortunately unsustainable for them, and they took their own lives. And wouldn't you know it. A whole pack of their buddies in faith swarm around to condemn them.

I say such 'faithful' are betrayers themselves. But, in the light of understanding the principalities behind such deception, I've learned their ways, and know it's not "just them" leading such charges.

 

[JLB]

Once again I've proven from Scripture that no believer can be removed from Christ,

You have never proven from the scriptures that a person can not be removed from Christ.

You have ignored what Jesus plainly said:

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Please explain how a person can be in Christ, then end up cast out and thrown into the fire, if a person can not be removed from Him.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; John 15:2

You have denied the plain words of scripture.

5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Romans 2:5-10

...indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil...

and again

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21

and again

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;...20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”
2 Peter 2:4, 20-22

and again

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called“Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


Those who are in Christ, and then "depart" from Him in unbelief, have returned to being unbelievers.

Unbelievers no longer have eternal life, just as Jesus said: If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.


Again you have not addressed the vital truth, but only denied it.

Please explain how someone who was in Christ, and then later cast into the fire and burned, still has eternal life?


JLB

 

[smaller]

I learned a long time ago that the majority of believers have to hold themselves under the threats of eternal hell in order to keep themselves in the faith. I might term such a mindset as a servant under threat and duress, hoping that their own performances are going to get the job done, but they are never really sure about themselves deep down inside. And they shouldn't be. They don't have a right to be. No sinner has such capabilities.

And such are not really all that much of a servant of God in Christ, other than serving to save their own hide. There is no doubt that a very distinct form of megalomania can come into a person who thinks they hold the performance keys to get into heaven, and even worse, when they think they have the measures to keep another believer OUT.

Is that a legitimate approach to God in Christ? For the majority, it would seem so.

Self serving faith didn't do me any good. I found out in the reality of faith, that within the majority of believers, there is that "thing" in them that will jump out to pounce upon another and prey on them for just about any infraction, by dangling them over the potential pits of hell.

Jesus didn't call me into that sight for some odd reason. Though I was likewise deceived for a time, by hanging with such folk.

Paul was given a MARK to hit, and I think he hit it that mark SPOT ON. I also think it's the ONLY direction that Paul looked:

Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

For me, this will be the only legitimate sight to hold. No, Jesus did NOT call me to be the potential eternal torture bearer or threatener to any person. Even Paul, when delivering his harshest employment to any believer who had fallen into sin, was to turn him over to Satan to SAVE THEM.

1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

There are better sights to be had in the faith. Love me or else is not a legitimate God. This is, SADLY, the common picture, and a picture I believe is painted by the devil himself.

 

[JLB]

No amounts of performance are going to produce a state of sinlessness. This much should be openly obvious to any believer past the point of about 6 months or so into faith.

What measures are you using to determine abiding?

Abiding means remain connected in relationship.

The way we are connected to Christ in relationship is believing/obeying the Gospel.

If we believe for awhile, then no longer believe, we will produce no fruit.

Just like the plant that sprouted up for a while, but because their heart was "hard", as indicated but the rock, they departed from Christ in unbelief/disobedience, when the persecution came.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

and again

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called“Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

We must continue believing to the end, in order to be a partaker of Christ, and receive the salvation of our soul.

8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:8-9



JLB

 

[JLB]

I learned a long time ago that the majority of believers have to hold themselves under the threats of eternal hell in order to keep themselves in the faith.

Those who exercise godliness, and who are continually in obedience to what the Spirit of God is saying and teaching them, who set their minds on things above, and put forth the effort to obey the scriptures, which will make one wise unto salvation, as well as adding to their faith...virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is not setting your mind on things beneath, in hell, but rather these is the life and peace which comes from setting your mind on things above.

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
2 Peter 1:2-9


However, those who have strayed from the truth, by listening to false teachers who tickle their ears with what they want to hear, need to be corrected and reminded of the warnings that the bible teaches about those who practice the works of the flesh.

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

If you will notice, James says of this correction... cover a multitude of sins, which is the language of love.

Saving a sinner from eternal death, is the work of love.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Abiding means remain connected in relationship.

Apparently for some this means their relationship is based on either personally perform or be potentially burned alive forever. Is this the relationship you are referring to? You might think that's a relationship. I don't.

The way we are connected to Christ in relationship is believing/obeying the Gospel.

Meaning what? That I must believe that the very God who saved me will possibly cast me aside forever based on my performances? I never had a performance satisfactory for eternal salvation to start with. Neither did anyone else. That is the entire point of having an actual Savior. A Savior who Saves.

So it might seem that we have different Saviors. One that does and one that might not. One who actually gets the job done and one that might not. This is kind of at the heart of the matters. Some will find a Savior who saves, and some find a Savior who might save. I'm in the Savior who saves camp. The Savior who can't get the job done and relies on me instead probably isn't all that much of a Savior in my eyes to begin with.

If we believe for awhile, then no longer believe, we will produce no fruit.

What fruit might you be speaking of? That fruit that claims the Savior can't get the job done? That kind of Savior? The Savior who's work and fruit wasn't sufficient? That kind of Savior? I really have no interest in being my own Savior quite frankly.

Just like the plant that sprouted up for a while, but because their heart was "hard", as indicated but the rock, they departed from Christ in unbelief/disobedience, when the persecution came.

I tend not to insulate or isolate myself from any Word of God. All His Words are meant for life. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4. Another person can read those same Words and find maybe life, maybe not. It's really just in the reflections that we have inside that make all the differences in the world.

How you and I understand these matters will revolve entirely around the fact that we really do have entirely different sights of God in Christ. One of us sees God in Christ as totally sufficient for the task, and one of us who doesn't.

When it comes to judgments, scriptures have provided a more than adequate basis to find ourselves insufficient to be our own Savior.

I wasn't called to be my own Savior. My bad.

 

[smaller]

Those who exercise godliness, and who are continually in obedience to what the Spirit of God is saying and teaching them, who set their minds on things above, and put forth the effort to obey the scriptures, which will make one wise unto salvation, as well as adding to their faith...virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is not setting your mind on things beneath, in hell, but rather these is the life and peace which comes from setting your mind on things above.

I'm pretty sure your list of requirements is quite entirely too extensive for anyone to perform by the time the total analysis comes into play. I've hung around the faith long enough to run into more than one person who thinks they are the only one who is sufficiently performing by all their rules. I really don't have time for such deceptions. For me such people are just dancing circles in their own minds.

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

I landed in the same sight as Paul, above. If anything I'll pound home the same point just to remind myself that I'm not Jesus.