I can never forgive God for this!

[Blain]

No worries my friend, it isn't true. God does not let people suffer forever.

Im not so sure thats true,I mean it would be nice if thats true but heres how I see it- God is a good and righteous God who sacrificed everything for us and he desires us more than anything even more than praise glory and honor. but if hell didnt exist we would do as we please without consequence and lets be honest because of our human nature we are prone to doing what we want.
I cant understand why someone would have to suffer for eternity- i mean that person would have to very very evil and cruel beyond reason. All I know is I trust God even though it doesnt make sense to me

 

[Butch5]

Im not so sure thats true,I mean it would be nice if thats true but heres how I see it- God is a good and righteous God who sacrificed everything for us and he desires us more than anything even more than praise glory and honor. but if hell didnt exist we would do as we please without consequence and lets be honest because of our human nature we are prone to doing what we want.
I cant understand why someone would have to suffer for eternity- i mean that person would have to very very evil and cruel beyond reason. All I know is I trust God even though it doesnt make sense to me

Hi Brian,

I have studied this subject in great depth. God doesn't make people suffer forever. The Scriptures are pretty clear that the wicked shall perish.

 

[jonahmano]

because i hate the fact that others suffer. I also fear my own salvation. The Bible says a lot of things and I have no guarantee of salvation. "If you are lukewarm I will spit you out"-Christ.

Jesus came to the earth and became man and suffered for you and in return He is asking to live a life according to the Bible and

because i hate the fact that others suffer. I also fear my own salvation. The Bible says a lot of things and I have no guarantee of salvation. "If you are lukewarm I will spit you out"-Christ.

Good that you have concern about others' destiny but you can't do anything. You are born into this world directly responsible to God. Your parents and your dear ones around you are in relation to you only in this world. When you reach eternity, you are of the creator.

Why do you fear about the guarantee of salvation. Doesn't the word of God give you any confidence?

About the lukewarm part it's some exactly like persecution. You have to overcome it. You can't be lukewarm. You have to repent and come draw near to Jesus.

 

[King James]

Eternal hellfire and that final. Jesus even condemned entire cities thousands of years in the future potentially for one household not accepting a disciple to stay and eat there.

 

[kickedoutofchurch]

Wow, you sound like you are in a terrible state. I am sorry for that pain. If I can give you an scriptural comfort, what do these verses say to you? Maybe they will help comfort you as they do me.... God bless you. (All are NASB unless otherwise stated.)

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Romans 12:20-21 (NASB) "But if your enemy is hungry, feed him, and if he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in so doing you will heap burning coals on his head." 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Colossians 1:17 (NASB) He (Jesus) is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Colossians 2:10 (NASB) and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

Luke 6:36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

1 John 4:8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love

1 Cor. 13:4-8 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Jeremiah 32:17 (NASB) ‘Ah Lord God! Behold, You have made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and by Your outstretched arm! Nothing is too difficult for You,

Colossians 1:20 　and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Colossians 3:11 a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.

Romans 11:32 　For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all

John 1:4 (NLT) The Word gave life to everything that was created, and his life brought light to everyone.

John 17:2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

John 17:4 I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.

Hebrews 12:2 (NASB) fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 Cor 15:22 (NASB) For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming

Philippians 2:11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Mark 10:27 (NASB) Looking at them, Jesus *said, "With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God."

2 Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;

John 8:15 (NASB) You judge according to the flesh; I am not judging anyone.

John 5:22 (MOUNCE) Furthermore, the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,

John 12:31 Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

1 Peter 4:6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.

Psalm 22:27-31 (NASB)
27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord,
And all the families of the nations will worship before You.
28 For the kingdom is the Lord’s
And He rules over the nations.
29 All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,
All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep his soul alive.
30 Posterity will serve Him;
It will be told of the Lord to the coming generation.
31 They will come and will declare His righteousness
To a people who will be born, that He has performed it.

Acts 2:17-21 ‘And it shall be in the last days,’ God says,
‘That I will pour forth of My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
And your young men shall see visions,
And your old men shall dream dreams;
18 Even on My bondslaves, both men and women,
I will in those days pour forth of My Spirit
And they shall prophesy.
19 ‘And I will grant wonders in the sky above
And signs on the earth below,
Blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke.
20 ‘The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood,
Before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come.
21 ‘And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’
Psalm 48:14 "This God is our God forever and ever. He will lead us beyond death."

Heb 12:29 for our God is a consuming fire.
Mark 9:49 For everyone will be salted with fire.

Matthew 3:11 　"I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

1 Peter 1:7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ

Matthew 3:11 　"I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Isaiah 43:2 (AMP) When you pass through the waters, I will be with you, and through the rivers, they will not overwhelm you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be burned or scorched, nor will the flame kindle upon you.

Malachi 3:3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness,

Mal 3:2 NASB “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap.

Revelation 20:15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire ("fire" = Greek "Pur")

pur: fire

HELPS Word-studies
4442 pýr – fire. In Scripture, fire is often used figuratively – like with the "fire of God" which transforms all it touches into light and likeness with itself

God's Spirit, like a holy fire, enlightens and purifies so that believers can share more and more in His likeness. Indeed the fire of God brings the uninterrupted privilege of being transformed which happens by experiencing faith from Him. Our lives can become true offerings to Him as we obey this imparted faith from God by His power.

[This is illustrated by God's fire burning continuously at the entrance of the Tabernacle where the priests made sweet-savor offerings. Compare Lev 6:12,13 with 1 Pet 2:5,9.]

1 Corinthians 3:13-15 　each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

God bless. I hope this helps.

kicked

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Acts 2:17-21 ‘And it shall be in the last days,’ God says,
‘That I will pour forth of My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
And your young men shall see visions,
And your old men shall dream dreams;
18 Even on My bondslaves, both men and women,
I will in those days pour forth of My Spirit
And they shall prophesy.
19 ‘And I will grant wonders in the sky above
And signs on the earth below,
Blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke.
20 ‘The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood,
Before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come.
21 ‘And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’
Psalm 48:14 "This God is our God forever and ever. He will lead us beyond death."

Heb 12:29 for our God is a consuming fire.
Mark 9:49 For everyone will be salted with fire.

Matthew 3:11 　"I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

1 Peter 1:7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ

Matthew 3:11 　"I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Isaiah 43:2 (AMP) When you pass through the waters, I will be with you, and through the rivers, they will not overwhelm you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be burned or scorched, nor will the flame kindle upon you.

Malachi 3:3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness,

Mal 3:2 NASB “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap.

Revelation 20:15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire ("fire" = Greek "Pur")

pur: fire

HELPS Word-studies
4442 pýr – fire. In Scripture, fire is often used figuratively – like with the "fire of God" which transforms all it touches into light and likeness with itself

God's Spirit, like a holy fire, enlightens and purifies so that believers can share more and more in His likeness. Indeed the fire of God brings the uninterrupted privilege of being transformed which happens by experiencing faith from Him. Our lives can become true offerings to Him as we obey this imparted faith from God by His power.

[This is illustrated by God's fire burning continuously at the entrance of the Tabernacle where the priests made sweet-savor offerings. Compare Lev 6:12,13 with 1 Pet 2:5,9.]

1 Corinthians 3:13-15 　each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

God bless. I hope this helps.

kicked[/quote]
Hi Kicked,

Your emphasis here seems to indicate that you are a universalist. Please be advised that this is a banned topic.

If you are not a universalist then sorry for the confusion.

Regards,
DI

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

because i hate the fact that others suffer. I also fear my own salvation. The Bible says a lot of things and I have no guarantee of salvation. "If you are lukewarm I will spit you out"-Christ.

you are not alone in those feelings and temptations. m. theresa also never had confidence of her own being saved. she never stepped out to get immersed in Yeshua as all the disciples and followers of Yeshua did, and according to her own bibliography and other statements she made openly , recorded on the web in various sites, she never once had any confidence of being saved. (that may apply directly to anyone who is not immersed in Yeshua. the peace , joy , and righteousness with eternal life are all a glorious wonderful very generous gift from God, in His Word, to all who are immersed in Yeshua, starting the same day they are immersed if not sooner. (remember the household of cornelius in acts received the joy of Yhwh's Spirit before being immersed, and then they went directly and were immersed(bptzd) in Yeshua's Name).
the reference to m.t. is because of your name, whether it bears any semblance or not to you, they 'go together'.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes but I was a sociopath at one time. In seven years I changed dramatically. I can only imagine how much some wicked person could change in 700,000 years. They deserve a second chance. This life is extremely short!

Man was given a second chance through Noah finding favor in God, but yet even after the flood many rejected God and came back to their own imaginations.Throughout the generations of Noah many came back to God and accepted His grace and mercy and many more will until the day of Christ return, but yet there are many that will still reject God and live their lives the way they want to. God is longsuffering that He would not want anyone to perish, but yet man still continue to separate themselves from Him and will be taken as a thief in the night when the Lord returns. It's not Gods fault that many will perish as all are given opportunity to turn back to Him, but many refuse His calling.

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi Brian,

I have studied this subject in great depth. God doesn't make people suffer forever. The Scriptures are pretty clear that the wicked shall perish.

If you mean that they perish in the sense that they are no more and not in hell for eternity then I have to disagree with this. Logic would say well since I will no longer exist then while I'm alive I will live the way I want to because it won't matter in the end. Read Matthew 25:41-46 as Jesus says everlasting punishment.

 

[Butch5]

If you mean that they perish in the sense that they are no more and not in hell for eternity then I have to disagree with this. Logic would say well since I will no longer exist then while I'm alive I will live the way I want to because it won't matter in the end. Read Matthew 25:41-46 as Jesus says everlasting punishment.

Hi Glory,

You may disagree but there is no eternal burning. The Scriptures are replete with statement that the dead are no more, perish, are destroyed, etc. The word everlasting doesn't have to understood only as continuing time. It also can be understood as permanence. We have just such an example in Jude.

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. {first estate: or, principality}
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jud 1:6-7 KJV)

Jude says that Sodom and Gomorrah are an example of eternal fire. One can see that they are not still burning today. Peter said of the same event.

6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; (2Pe 2:6 KJV)

Peter said that God turned them into ashes. That's burned up and we know they aren't still burning. However, to my knowledge archeologists are even sure where this cities were, so it would seem that the destruction is eternal. They are permanently destroyed. Peter said being turned to ashes was an example to those who would live ungodly.

Another problem with the idea of eternal punishment is that the Scriptures say the gift of God is eternal life. This gift is given to believers. If the wicked burn for eternity then they two would have to be given eternal life, yet the Scripture contrast the righteous with the wicked and eternal life with perishing.

 

[agua.]

Hi Glory,

You may disagree but there is no eternal burning. The Scriptures are replete with statement that the dead are no more, perish, are destroyed, etc. The word everlasting doesn't have to understood only as continuing time. It also can be understood as permanence. We have just such an example in Jude.

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. {first estate: or, principality}
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jud 1:6-7 KJV)

Jude says that Sodom and Gomorrah are an example of eternal fire. One can see that they are not still burning today. Peter said of the same event.

6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; (2Pe 2:6 KJV)

Peter said that God turned them into ashes. That's burned up and we know they aren't still burning. However, to my knowledge archeologists are even sure where this cities were, so it would seem that the destruction is eternal. They are permanently destroyed. Peter said being turned to ashes was an example to those who would live ungodly.

Another problem with the idea of eternal punishment is that the Scriptures say the gift of God is eternal life. This gift is given to believers. If the wicked burn for eternity then they two would have to be given eternal life, yet the Scripture contrast the righteous with the wicked and eternal life with perishing.

I have a question Butch. When did the doctrine of ECT enter Christianity and why ?

 

[kickedoutofchurch]

Hi Glory,

You may disagree but there is no eternal burning. The Scriptures are replete with statement that the dead are no more, perish, are destroyed, etc. The word everlasting doesn't have to understood only as continuing time. It also can be understood as permanence. We have just such an example in Jude.

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. {first estate: or, principality}
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jud 1:6-7 KJV)

Jude says that Sodom and Gomorrah are an example of eternal fire. One can see that they are not still burning today. Peter said of the same event.

6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; (2Pe 2:6 KJV)

Peter said that God turned them into ashes. That's burned up and we know they aren't still burning. However, to my knowledge archeologists are even sure where this cities were, so it would seem that the destruction is eternal. They are permanently destroyed. Peter said being turned to ashes was an example to those who would live ungodly.

Another problem with the idea of eternal punishment is that the Scriptures say the gift of God is eternal life. This gift is given to believers. If the wicked burn for eternity then they two would have to be given eternal life, yet the Scripture contrast the righteous with the wicked and eternal life with perishing.

Hi. You may want to check out the discussion on "Gods Fire" in another thread. It is the Greek word "Pur" where we get the world "purify" and "purity" from.

http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...nism-and-the-gospel.52969/page-18#post-930211

God bless,

Kicked

 

[kickedoutofchurch]

If you mean that they perish in the sense that they are no more and not in hell for eternity then I have to disagree with this. Logic would say well since I will no longer exist then while I'm alive I will live the way I want to because it won't matter in the end. Read Matthew 25:41-46 as Jesus says everlasting punishment.

Hi, If we are seekers of the truth as I suspect you are, I would strongly advise digging into the Greek word translated as "Everlasting". It is the Greek word "aiónios" and according to Strong's number 166 it means "agelong, eternal". Here is a direct link to the word: http://biblehub.com/greek/166.htm

The translators from the original Greek language had a choice if they wanted to put "age-long" or "eternal" based on their beliefs of what was being said. These translations did not appear until long after Christ. Thus, it is important we go directly to the original language and listen to the Holy Spirit inside us based on other things we know of God. God IS love right? However, even if we translate it as "eternal", "eternal" does not always mean forever. See Rev 6:10 of the souls in Heaven (not in Earthly space and time) wanting to know "how long"? Thus, we have to conclude that "eternal" just means outside of the Earthly realm of space and time.

So, going back to Matt 25:41-46 and reading it in an extremely literal translation, here is what we will see.

And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.' Matt 25:41-46 YLT

Basically, it means "an age of" that has a definite beginning and ending time. We are currently in the "age of" Grace or the Church age. It would not make much sense to say we are in the Eternal age of Grace would it? However, it would be the same word.

If you really want to go deep with the Lord, dig into the word we translated as "punishment". You will find amazing things. It is Strong's number 2851 at http://biblehub.com/greek/2851.htm which is kolasis: correction You can see that Strong's translated it to mean "correction" as in loving discipline. It is not pleasant as no discipline is at the time. This is the same word in 1 John 4:18 where it tells us that God's perfect love casts out kolasis. So, this can be understood as the very same thing that is happening to believers in this age of Grace/Church. God is walking us through trials (in the wilderness) via his Holy Spirit (and fire) and this "tests" us and causes us to trust him. His loving discipline and trails cast out this "fear". See Hebrews 12. All of God's children are disciplined by our loving father so we trust him.

Isn't it awesome to know we have such a father as this?

I know these things will irritate some who feel I am teaching universalism. I am not. I just digging into the truth of the Words and their meaning. I seek truth at all costs and I hope you will to. It will feed you tremendous LIFE and JOY from within when you see the amazing GOODNESS of our father.

God bless,

Kicked

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Hi, If we are seekers of the truth as I suspect you are, I would strongly advise digging into the Greek word translated as "Everlasting". It is the Greek word "aiónios" and according to Strong's number 166 it means "agelong, eternal". Here is a direct link to the word: http://biblehub.com/greek/166.htm

The translators from the original Greek language had a choice if they wanted to put "age-long" or "eternal" based on their beliefs of what was being said. These translations did not appear until long after Christ. Thus, it is important we go directly to the original language and listen to the Holy Spirit inside us based on other things we know of God. God IS love right? However, even if we translate it as "eternal", "eternal" does not always mean forever. See Rev 6:10 of the souls in Heaven (not in Earthly space and time) wanting to know "how long"? Thus, we have to conclude that "eternal" just means outside of the Earthly realm of space and time.

So, going back to Matt 25:41-46 and reading it in an extremely literal translation, here is what we will see.

And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.' Matt 25:41-46 YLT

Basically, it means "an age of" that has a definite beginning and ending time. We are currently in the "age of" Grace or the Church age. It would not make much sense to say we are in the Eternal age of Grace would it? However, it would be the same word.

If you really want to go deep with the Lord, dig into the word we translated as "punishment". You will find amazing things. It is Strong's number 2851 at http://biblehub.com/greek/2851.htm which is kolasis: correction You can see that Strong's translated it to mean "correction" as in loving discipline. It is not pleasant as no discipline is at the time. This is the same word in 1 John 4:18 where it tells us that God's perfect love casts out kolasis. So, this can be understood as the very same thing that is happening to believers in this age of Grace/Church. God is walking us through trials (in the wilderness) via his Holy Spirit (and fire) and this "tests" us and causes us to trust him. His loving discipline and trails cast out this "fear". See Hebrews 12. All of God's children are disciplined by our loving father so we trust him.

Isn't it awesome to know we have such a father as this?

I know these things will irritate some who feel I am teaching universalism. I am not. I just digging into the truth of the Words and their meaning. I seek truth at all costs and I hope you will to. It will feed you tremendous LIFE and JOY from within when you see the amazing GOODNESS of our father.

God bless,

Kicked

As someone who has studied universalism quite a bit, I have seen these arguments so many times from universalists.

The argument from the meaning of aionios and the argument from the meaning of kolasis. This effectively changes the meaning of Matthew 25:46 to be a temporary corrective punishment and thus teaches that all will eventually be saved.

9) Do not promote a religion or belief other than Biblical and historical Christianity. (ToS 2.2)
You will not post any messages; links, images or photos promoting another religion. Atheism is considered a "belief" for the purposes of this rule. This is a Christian Forum as the name suggests.
Discussion of Full Preterism, Universal Reconciliation, Universal Salvation, Serpent seed, Dual Seed or Two-Seedline doctrine will be allowed only in the 1 on 1 Debate Forum.

Please see the ToS above that you agreed to by coming to this site. I am not a moderator, but am simply a fellow poster helping you out by letting you know that talking about this could get you in trouble. You can create a thread in "Talk with the Staff" to inquire why it is a banned topic.

Just because you do not call it "universalism" does not mean that you aren't promoting it.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi, If we are seekers of the truth as I suspect you are, I would strongly advise digging into the Greek word translated as "Everlasting". It is the Greek word "aiónios" and according to Strong's number 166 it means "agelong, eternal". Here is a direct link to the word: http://biblehub.com/greek/166.htm

The translators from the original Greek language had a choice if they wanted to put "age-long" or "eternal" based on their beliefs of what was being said. These translations did not appear until long after Christ. Thus, it is important we go directly to the original language and listen to the Holy Spirit inside us based on other things we know of God. God IS love right? However, even if we translate it as "eternal", "eternal" does not always mean forever. See Rev 6:10 of the souls in Heaven (not in Earthly space and time) wanting to know "how long"? Thus, we have to conclude that "eternal" just means outside of the Earthly realm of space and time.

So, going back to Matt 25:41-46 and reading it in an extremely literal translation, here is what we will see.

And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.' Matt 25:41-46 YLT

Basically, it means "an age of" that has a definite beginning and ending time. We are currently in the "age of" Grace or the Church age. It would not make much sense to say we are in the Eternal age of Grace would it? However, it would be the same word.

If you really want to go deep with the Lord, dig into the word we translated as "punishment". You will find amazing things. It is Strong's number 2851 at http://biblehub.com/greek/2851.htm which is kolasis: correction You can see that Strong's translated it to mean "correction" as in loving discipline. It is not pleasant as no discipline is at the time. This is the same word in 1 John 4:18 where it tells us that God's perfect love casts out kolasis. So, this can be understood as the very same thing that is happening to believers in this age of Grace/Church. God is walking us through trials (in the wilderness) via his Holy Spirit (and fire) and this "tests" us and causes us to trust him. His loving discipline and trails cast out this "fear". See Hebrews 12. All of God's children are disciplined by our loving father so we trust him.

Isn't it awesome to know we have such a father as this?

I know these things will irritate some who feel I am teaching universalism. I am not. I just digging into the truth of the Words and their meaning. I seek truth at all costs and I hope you will to. It will feed you tremendous LIFE and JOY from within when you see the amazing GOODNESS of our father.

God bless,

Kicked

Everlasting means the same in Hebrew as it does Greek as you can not choose and pick part of the definition, but have to use the whole. Grace has always been from the beginning and everlasting as always will be in past, present and future, just as God said world without end. This world will never end, but be restored when Christ returns. You said God is love right, then proceed to say, but Gods love is not forever as in using the word eternal. I'm sorry, but Gods love is everlasting, perpetual without end.

Strong's Exhausted Concordance: Everlasting
Hebrew # 5769 owlam or olam - means lasting,-more, of old, perpetual/without end
Greek # 166 aionios - means perpetual/without end, also used of past time, or past and future, world without end

Rev 6:10 those souls were posting a question of how long will it be before we are avenged. We can not conclude that "eternal" just means outside of the Earthly realm of space and time as everything in an under heaven is all Gods timing that has nothing to do with our own definition of time as in years, days, hours or minutes.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi Glory,

You may disagree but there is no eternal burning. The Scriptures are replete with statement that the dead are no more, perish, are destroyed, etc. The word everlasting doesn't have to understood only as continuing time. It also can be understood as permanence. We have just such an example in Jude.

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. {first estate: or, principality}
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jud 1:6-7 KJV)

Jude says that Sodom and Gomorrah are an example of eternal fire. One can see that they are not still burning today. Peter said of the same event.

6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; (2Pe 2:6 KJV)

Peter said that God turned them into ashes. That's burned up and we know they aren't still burning. However, to my knowledge archeologists are even sure where this cities were, so it would seem that the destruction is eternal. They are permanently destroyed. Peter said being turned to ashes was an example to those who would live ungodly.

Another problem with the idea of eternal punishment is that the Scriptures say the gift of God is eternal life. This gift is given to believers. If the wicked burn for eternity then they two would have to be given eternal life, yet the Scripture contrast the righteous with the wicked and eternal life with perishing.

We have always been taught hell is a place where non-believers in God go to for eternity, but according to scripture this is not what hell is. Hell is described as the world of the dead, a place where departed souls go that have died as being lowered in a grave/pit and wait there until the return of Christ and that of Gods great white throne judgment.

God gives us a description as in fire and brimstone which can be used literal as in Sodom and Gomorrah burned to ashes and as a metaphor for torment, suffering, punishment or as Matthew 8:12 describes it as outer darkness. The New Testament description is a bottomless pit (abyss) (Revelation 20:3), a lake (Revelation 20:14), darkness (Matthew 25:30), death (Revelation 2:11), destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), everlasting torment (Revelation 20:10), a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), and a place of gradated punishment (Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Revelation 20:12-13), everlasting fire Matthew 25:41, everlasting punishment, Matthew 25:46, lake of fire burning with brimstone. Where those go to that are not found written in the Lambs book of life has no actual name but is described as a place of everlasting torment and destruction.

Strong's Exhausted Concordance: Hell

Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit

Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell

Greek # 1067 Gehenna, the Valley of the sons of Hinnom South of Jerusalem, figuratively and literal of a place of punishment.

The English word hell, back in 1611, meant about the same as Hades, that being covered or unseen as in grave/pit. We do not see those in the grave as they are unseen to the eye as they are covered with dirt, or some placed in a tomb. The word hell is derived from the Saxon helan, to cover, and signifying merely the covered, or invisible place. The habitation of those who have gone from the visible terrestrial region to the world of spirits.

 

[agua.]

I've been introduced to a couple more ideas on post death for the wicked on this site I hadn't heard of before. Here's the positions I've seen here.

1. Immortal soul ( always conscious) ECT
2. Immortal soul ( not conscious between death and GWT ) ECT
3. Immortal soul and no ECT but purification into the Kingdom. ( universalism )
4. Annihilation ( no consciousness in death or after punishment period ) CI
5.Annihilation ( conscious between death and GWT but not after )

I'd never heard of 2 or 5 before.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I've been introduced to a couple more ideas on post death for the wicked on this site I hadn't heard of before. Here's the positions I've seen here.

1. Immortal soul ( always conscious) ECT.

This seems to be the most popular of course.

2. Immortal soul ( not conscious between death and GWT ) ECT

This sounds like Martin Luther's position, not denying ECT but embracing soul sleep.

3. Immortal soul and no ECT but purification into the Kingdom. ( universalism )

Yup, universal reconciliation. This is probably the best form of it, rather than pluralism.

4. Annihilation ( no consciousness in death or after punishment period ) CI

I believe a little bit of the 4th and 5th position.

5.Annihilation ( conscious between death and GWT but not after )

I believe the wicked remain unconscious between death and the GWT, but the righteous are conscious.

 

[Butch5]

I have a question Butch. When did the doctrine of ECT enter Christianity and why ?

Hi agua,

I'm not really sure. I suspect it was early since the Greeks already had the idea of the dead living in the underworld ruled by the god Hades.

 

[Butch5]

We have always been taught hell is a place where non-believers in God go to for eternity, but according to scripture this is not what hell is. Hell is described as the world of the dead, a place where departed souls go that have died as being lowered in a grave/pit and wait there until the return of Christ and that of Gods great white throne judgment.

God gives us a description as in fire and brimstone which can be used literal as in Sodom and Gomorrah burned to ashes and as a metaphor for torment, suffering, punishment or as Matthew 8:12 describes it as outer darkness. The New Testament description is a bottomless pit (abyss) (Revelation 20:3), a lake (Revelation 20:14), darkness (Matthew 25:30), death (Revelation 2:11), destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), everlasting torment (Revelation 20:10), a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), and a place of gradated punishment (Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Revelation 20:12-13), everlasting fire Matthew 25:41, everlasting punishment, Matthew 25:46, lake of fire burning with brimstone. Where those go to that are not found written in the Lambs book of life has no actual name but is described as a place of everlasting torment and destruction.

Strong's Exhausted Concordance: Hell

Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit

Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell

Greek # 1067 Gehenna, the Valley of the sons of Hinnom South of Jerusalem, figuratively and literal of a place of punishment.

The English word hell, back in 1611, meant about the same as Hades, that being covered or unseen as in grave/pit. We do not see those in the grave as they are unseen to the eye as they are covered with dirt, or some placed in a tomb. The word hell is derived from the Saxon helan, to cover, and signifying merely the covered, or invisible place. The habitation of those who have gone from the visible terrestrial region to the world of spirits.

Hi Glory,

I'm not sure where you're going with this. Gehenna is an actual place outside of Jerusalem where the wicked will be destroyed. It is where the bodies were burned after the overthrow of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar and the Romans. This is where Jesus said the wicked will be thrown. However, Jeremiah says that Gehenna will ultimately be made holy to the Lord. If it's made holy to the Lord then it doesn't seem like it's going to burn for eternity.