I can never forgive God for this!

[agua.]

Hi Agua,

You're welcome. I'm not sure about the dimensions, I'm sure God has that figured out. I do believe that the wicked will be consumed to nothing so I don't think Gehenna will be filled. The more I study the more I'm becoming convinced that Things have been allegorized away. I think to often we as Christians what to make everything spiritual and I'm finding that most things are physical and literal as they concern man.

Yeah I can't disagree with that Butch.

 

[Butch5]

Yeah I can't disagree with that Butch.

 

[kickedoutofchurch]

Hi all.

I pray you are resting today in the Lord's love and trusting him. I pray he gives us powerful revelation that changes our lives. I personally have experienced that myself growing up in a broken home and having an alcoholic mother passing away at the age of 7. He has revealed powerful and amazing things regarding the rough childhood I had. Know that it ALL (both good and bad!) happens for a reason and that reason is very good.

I am taking a short break from this thread as I was told to not discuss the things I have. I am hoping to find out what exactly to not discuss and possibly return to the discussion.

God bless,

Kicked

 

[Butch5]

Hi all.

I pray you are resting today in the Lord's love and trusting him. I pray he gives us powerful revelation that changes our lives. I personally have experienced that myself growing up in a broken home and having an alcoholic mother passing away at the age of 7. He has revealed powerful and amazing things regarding the rough childhood I had. Know that it ALL (both good and bad!) happens for a reason and that reason is very good.

I am taking a short break from this thread as I was told to not discuss the things I have. I am hoping to find out what exactly to not discuss and possibly return to the discussion.

God bless,

Kicked

Rest up!

 

[kickedoutofchurch]

kickedoutofchurch, thank you for explaining that of what you believe and I agree with some parts, but yet disagree with other parts.

You said:
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire Revelation 20:15 (true)
At the end of the judgment time, anyone who's name is not written in the Lambs book of life, they too will be thrown into the fire. I guess they will be in the same place as I am, in the fire. I have to believe this is not a physical fire, but possibly a spiritual fire? I can assure you that I am not in a fire or on fire right now.

My question to you is do you think that those who have been thrown into the lake of fire, Rev 20:11-15, as they have not Christ in them will at some point and time be refined in the fire and then will go to be with the Lord forever after the New Jerusalem is ushered down?

If this were true than Satan, along with the beast and the false prophets also would go through the same fire and be with the Lord forever as there is only one lake of fire that was prepared for Satan, the beast and the false prophets, Rev 20:10, including all who have rejected Christ, Rev 20:11-15, that will be in torment forever and ever. There are two final end of days judgements as one is Gods great white throne judgement for those not found written in the Lambs book of life, but are found in Gods book of life, Rev 20:12, that are judged for their works here on earth. Then there is the judgement seat of Christ, 2Corinthians 5:10, that those who are in Christ at His coming will be judged for the things they have done to receive their rewards. The word all has two meanings in scripture as all who reject God/Jesus such and such will be their demise and all who accept God/Jesus such and such will be their reward.

Rev 20:11-15 talks about the second death, being that of those who died without being in Christ will be raise from the hell/grave and cast into the lake of fire, that same fire as in Rev 20:10, for ever and ever. No second chances after Christ returns for His Bride.

My question to you is do you think that those who have been thrown into the lake of fire, Rev 20:11-15, as they have not Christ in them will at some point and time be refined in the fire and then will go to be with the Lord forever after the New Jerusalem is ushered down?

Hi for_his_glory. That is an awesome question that I hope it is ok for us to discuss as I am being warned about the scriptures I believe or I guess how I understand them. The first thing that comes to mind is we have to come to a conclusion of this question.

"Exactly where is Christ?" and one like it "Is there any place where Christ is not?" Here are some verses that answer this for me.

one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all Ephesians 4:6 NASB

So, Ephesians 4:6 tells us where Father God is and where he is not.

Now, let's look at the words of Jesus.

"I and the Father are one." John 10:30 NASB

that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me John 17:21 NASB

Ok, look at John 10:30 and John 17:21 and that gives you an idea of where Jesus is located and where he is not located. Now, let's look at other powerful scriptures of where Jesus is located.

a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all Col 3:11 NASB

He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together Col 1:17 NASB

This is quite an amazing Christ! He also calls himself the first and last (of creation?) in Revelation.

Now, consider this amazing verse he told us before he went to the cross?

and I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all to me. John 12:32 Darby

"draw" = Greek word "helkó" Strong's # 1670

helkó: to drag http://biblehub.com/greek/1670.htm

"all" = Greek word "pas" which is Strong's # 3956 http://biblehub.com/greek/3956.htm

pas: all, every

I believe the answers are in here.

God bless and have an awesome Monday.

Kicked

 

[Butch5]

Hi for_his_glory. That is an awesome question that I hope it is ok for us to discuss as I am being warned about the scriptures I believe or I guess how I understand them. The first thing that comes to mind is we have to come to a conclusion of this question.

"Exactly where is Christ?" and one like it "Is there any place where Christ is not?" Here are some verses that answer this for me.

one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all Ephesians 4:6 NASB

So, Ephesians 4:6 tells us where Father God is and where he is not.

Now, let's look at the words of Jesus.

"I and the Father are one." John 10:30 NASB

that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me John 17:21 NASB

Ok, look at John 10:30 and John 17:21 and that gives you an idea of where Jesus is located and where he is not located. Now, let's look at other powerful scriptures of where Jesus is located.

a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all Col 3:11 NASB

He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together Col 1:17 NASB

This is quite an amazing Christ! He also calls himself the first and last (of creation?) in Revelation.

Now, consider this amazing verse he told us before he went to the cross?

and I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all to me. John 12:32 Darby

"draw" = Greek word "helkó" Strong's # 1670

helkó: to drag http://biblehub.com/greek/1670.htm

"all" = Greek word "pas" which is Strong's # 3956 http://biblehub.com/greek/3956.htm

pas: all, every

I believe the answers are in here.

God bless and have an awesome Monday.

Kicked

Hi Kicked,

It seems to me that you believe the Father and Christ are one and the same, this cannot be. When Jesus said I and the Father are one He was speaking of unity not physicality.

 

[kickedoutofchurch]

Hi Butch... I just believe what they say.

God bless.

Kicked

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi for_his_glory. That is an awesome question that I hope it is ok for us to discuss as I am being warned about the scriptures I believe or I guess how I understand them. The first thing that comes to mind is we have to come to a conclusion of this question.

"Exactly where is Christ?" and one like it "Is there any place where Christ is not?" Here are some verses that answer this for me.

one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all Ephesians 4:6 NASB

So, Ephesians 4:6 tells us where Father God is and where he is not.

Now, let's look at the words of Jesus.

"I and the Father are one." John 10:30 NASB

that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me John 17:21 NASB

Ok, look at John 10:30 and John 17:21 and that gives you an idea of where Jesus is located and where he is not located. Now, let's look at other powerful scriptures of where Jesus is located.

a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all Col 3:11 NASB

He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together Col 1:17 NASB

This is quite an amazing Christ! He also calls himself the first and last (of creation?) in Revelation.

Now, consider this amazing verse he told us before he went to the cross?

and I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all to me. John 12:32 Darby

"draw" = Greek word "helkó" Strong's # 1670

helkó: to drag http://biblehub.com/greek/1670.htm

"all" = Greek word "pas" which is Strong's # 3956 http://biblehub.com/greek/3956.htm

pas: all, every

I believe the answers are in here.

God bless and have an awesome Monday.

Kicked

All means all those who believe on Christ will not perish, will not face Gods wrath, but will have eternal life with the Father as they received Christ before His return. You are using the word all to mean everyone as in every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Christ is Lord. Yes, all will believe when they see Christ come, but those who did not receive Him before His coming are those who will perish and have no second chance of eternal life with the Father.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch... I just believe what they say.

God bless.

Kicked

But the way you're understanding it contradicts other passages. Paul said the Father is invisible yet Jesus has a body, there's no way they can be the same.

 

[kickedoutofchurch]

All means all those who believe on Christ will not perish, will not face Gods wrath, but will have eternal life with the Father as they received Christ before His return. You are using the word all to mean everyone as in every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Christ is Lord. Yes, all will believe when they see Christ come, but those who did not receive Him before His coming are those who will perish and have no second chance of eternal life with the Father.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Hi for_his_glory". Those are awesome scriptures and I thank you for sharing. I also believe that all who believe will be saved. The question always comes down to "who will believe and when?" This ultimately comes to the doctrine of man's "free will" vs. God's sovereignty. I have spent many weeks maybe even months digging into it and have strongly and very concretely arrived at my own conclusion about free will vs. God's sovereignty. I am not sure if I can share it here or the many, many scriptures it is based on as it is not what is commonly taught by the traditions of man.

If you do believe man has free will and can overpower God's sovereign plan, one question you can ask yourself is "Did I have a free will choice to not be born as a sinner?" Or was that decision outside of your personal free will? This is a VERY important thing to get properly aligned with God's Word IMHO.

However, the conclusion I arrived at shows that God really is VERY powerful and he is REALLY GOOD! It gives him a LOT of glory and man gets none unless God gives it back to him.

Another thing we have to ask ourselves is if we believe that the redemption that Christ provided at the cross really is eternal (and outside of all times or ages) or not?

and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption Hebrews 9:12 NASB

Personally, I have concluded based on Hebrews 9:12 and other scriptures that the redemption he obtained for the world was outside of all times and ages.

Hope you have an awesome Monday.

Kicked

 

[Doulos Iesou]

There is no actual evidence one way or another that can or can not support it was a garbage dump and what does it matter anyway as all cities have a garbage dump.

Forgot to respond to this one, sorry for the delay.

If there is no evidence for a garbage dump at this specific spot, then why would you base Christ's teachings on such imagery?

“It seems that the location of the city-dump of the late Second Temple period in this particular part of the city had a previous long history in the late Iron Age II. The Book of Nehemiah mentions several times a gate called Saar ha-Aspot/Sopot (Neh 2, 13; 3:13-14; 12:31). This toponym is usually translated as ‘Dung Gate’, based on the analogy with 2 Sam 2,8 and Ps 113,7 (Simons 1952, 123). These verses mention the city’s poor people, who most probably were foraging the city dump for food. Even if we accept B. Mazar’s suggestion (1975, 194-95), to relate spt to tpt – the Tophet – which was an extramural high place in the Valley of Hinnom (2 Kgs 21, 6; 2 Chr 33,6), we remain in an area of dirt. This place involved an extensive use of fire, which produced burning waste such as ashes, soot and charred wood. Also the location of the Gate of the pottery sherds (Sa’ar ha-Harsit), in the south (Jer 19,2), might point to a pile of garbage (Simons 1952, 230), as pottery vessels were the type of household item broken and discarded in antiquity more than any other type of artifact.

All the various types of city-garbage (ashes, pottery shards, waste of human occupation, etc.) were moved and dumped at the southeastern side of the city of Jerusalem, in the Iron Age and Persian periods. This was the city dump to where also the debris of the smashed cult objects and related material that was created during the Josianic religious reform, were moved and dumped, mentioning particularly the Kidron Valley (2 Kgs 23,4,6,10,12)” (“The Jerusalem City-Dump in the Late Second Temple Period, Israel Exploration Journal 53 [2003], 17).

According to these scholars, the archaeology seems to indicate the garbage dump was in the Kidron Valley on the eastern side of the city towards the mount of Olives.

We do know from scripture children were sacrificed to Molech there in Gehenna.

Indeed.

Isaiah and Jesus both made reference to the unquenchable fire and that the worm did not die there, meaning that there were always new maggots going through their life-cycles, feeding on the trash and human flesh, Isaiah 66:24; Matthew 5:29, 30; Mark 9:43-48; Judith 16:17; Jeremiah Chapter 7.

Feeding on trash?

“And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.” Isaiah 66:24 (ESV)

The text seems to indicate that this is referring to dead bodies, not living human beings or trash.

Jeremiah 7:32 God called it the place of slaughter.

Now you're on to something. Now what does slaughter mean?

Gehenna - Valley of Hinnom, Old Testament as Gai Ben-Hinnom, Tophet, in the Talmud as Gehinnam

The oldest historical reference to the valley is found in Joshua 15:8 , 18:16 which describe tribal boundaries. The next chronological reference to the valley is at the time of King Ahaz of Judah who sacrificed his sons there according to 2 Chron. 28:3. Isaiah does not mention Gehenna by name, but the burning place, Isaiah 30:33 in which the Assyrian army are to be destroyed, may be read Topheth, and the final verse of Isaiah which concerns the corpses of the same or a similar battle, Isaiah 66:24 , where their worm does not die. Also read Jeremiah 19:6-8 as a reference to the dead bodies that are thrown over the wall of Jerusalem into Gehenna/Tophet.

At first glance there isn't anything here I disagree with.

Flavius Josephus describes in his book of wars:
Now the seditious at first gave orders that the dead should be buried out of the public treasury, as not enduring the stench of their dead bodies. But afterwards, when they could not do that, they had them cast down from the walls into the valleys beneath. (War 5.12.3).

Did you actually read the context of what Josephus was talking about? This doesn't support your case for the Valley of Hinnom being a flaming garbage dump, this was about the people of Jerusalem throwing bodies over the walls of the city during the siege to get rid of the dead bodies as they could not bury them anymore.

Matthew 5:29, 30; Mark 9:43-48 Jesus uses the prophetic symbolic of Gehenna as the worm did not die there, meaning that there were always new maggots going through their life-cycles, feeding on the the dead corpse. Also note Isaiah 66:24.

Are these corpses living in your eyes?

 

[for_his_glory]

Forgot to respond to this one, sorry for the delay.

If there is no evidence for a garbage dump at this specific spot, then why would you base Christ's teachings on such imagery?

“It seems that the location of the city-dump of the late Second Temple period in this particular part of the city had a previous long history in the late Iron Age II. The Book of Nehemiah mentions several times a gate called Saar ha-Aspot/Sopot (Neh 2, 13; 3:13-14; 12:31). This toponym is usually translated as ‘Dung Gate’, based on the analogy with 2 Sam 2,8 and Ps 113,7 (Simons 1952, 123). These verses mention the city’s poor people, who most probably were foraging the city dump for food. Even if we accept B. Mazar’s suggestion (1975, 194-95), to relate spt to tpt – the Tophet – which was an extramural high place in the Valley of Hinnom (2 Kgs 21, 6; 2 Chr 33,6), we remain in an area of dirt. This place involved an extensive use of fire, which produced burning waste such as ashes, soot and charred wood. Also the location of the Gate of the pottery sherds (Sa’ar ha-Harsit), in the south (Jer 19,2), might point to a pile of garbage (Simons 1952, 230), as pottery vessels were the type of household item broken and discarded in antiquity more than any other type of artifact.

All the various types of city-garbage (ashes, pottery shards, waste of human occupation, etc.) were moved and dumped at the southeastern side of the city of Jerusalem, in the Iron Age and Persian periods. This was the city dump to where also the debris of the smashed cult objects and related material that was created during the Josianic religious reform, were moved and dumped, mentioning particularly the Kidron Valley (2 Kgs 23,4,6,10,12)” (“The Jerusalem City-Dump in the Late Second Temple Period, Israel Exploration Journal 53 [2003], 17).

According to these scholars, the archaeology seems to indicate the garbage dump was in the Kidron Valley on the eastern side of the city towards the mount of Olives.


Indeed.


Feeding on trash?

“And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.” Isaiah 66:24 (ESV)

The text seems to indicate that this is referring to dead bodies, not living human beings or trash.


Now you're on to something. Now what does slaughter mean?


At first glance there isn't anything here I disagree with.


Did you actually read the context of what Josephus was talking about? This doesn't support your case for the Valley of Hinnom being a flaming garbage dump, this was about the people of Jerusalem throwing bodies over the walls of the city during the siege to get rid of the dead bodies as they could not bury them anymore.


Are these corpses living in your eyes?

I never said there was no evidence of a garbage dump, I said there is no where in scripture that states there was or still is. I believe there was and possibly even be there today, but scripture is silent on that.

maggots are fly lava and they do feed on rotten food.

Slaughter usually means to kill something.

How can a corpse be something that is living.

Never said the maggots were feeding on living human flesh. Never saw a live corpse

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi for_his_glory". Those are awesome scriptures and I thank you for sharing. I also believe that all who believe will be saved. The question always comes down to "who will believe and when?" This ultimately comes to the doctrine of man's "free will" vs. God's sovereignty. I have spent many weeks maybe even months digging into it and have strongly and very concretely arrived at my own conclusion about free will vs. God's sovereignty. I am not sure if I can share it here or the many, many scriptures it is based on as it is not what is commonly taught by the traditions of man.

If you do believe man has free will and can overpower God's sovereign plan, one question you can ask yourself is "Did I have a free will choice to not be born as a sinner?" Or was that decision outside of your personal free will? This is a VERY important thing to get properly aligned with God's Word IMHO.

However, the conclusion I arrived at shows that God really is VERY powerful and he is REALLY GOOD! It gives him a LOT of glory and man gets none unless God gives it back to him.

Another thing we have to ask ourselves is if we believe that the redemption that Christ provided at the cross really is eternal (and outside of all times or ages) or not?

and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption Hebrews 9:12 NASB

Personally, I have concluded based on Hebrews 9:12 and other scriptures that the redemption he obtained for the world was outside of all times and ages.

Hope you have an awesome Monday.

Kicked

Free will needs to be another topic so I will not get into it here. I am only showing how not everyone (all) will be with the Father for eternity. When Jesus returns in the air those who are in Christ at that time, dead or alive, are the only ones who will be taken up to meet Jesus in the air. The Holy Spirit is also taken at the same time closing the door of salvation forever.

 

[kickedoutofchurch]

Forgot to respond to this one, sorry for the delay.

If there is no evidence for a garbage dump at this specific spot, then why would you base Christ's teachings on such imagery?

“It seems that the location of the city-dump of the late Second Temple period in this particular part of the city had a previous long history in the late Iron Age II. The Book of Nehemiah mentions several times a gate called Saar ha-Aspot/Sopot (Neh 2, 13; 3:13-14; 12:31). This toponym is usually translated as ‘Dung Gate’, based on the analogy with 2 Sam 2,8 and Ps 113,7 (Simons 1952, 123). These verses mention the city’s poor people, who most probably were foraging the city dump for food. Even if we accept B. Mazar’s suggestion (1975, 194-95), to relate spt to tpt – the Tophet – which was an extramural high place in the Valley of Hinnom (2 Kgs 21, 6; 2 Chr 33,6), we remain in an area of dirt. This place involved an extensive use of fire, which produced burning waste such as ashes, soot and charred wood. Also the location of the Gate of the pottery sherds (Sa’ar ha-Harsit), in the south (Jer 19,2), might point to a pile of garbage (Simons 1952, 230), as pottery vessels were the type of household item broken and discarded in antiquity more than any other type of artifact.

All the various types of city-garbage (ashes, pottery shards, waste of human occupation, etc.) were moved and dumped at the southeastern side of the city of Jerusalem, in the Iron Age and Persian periods. This was the city dump to where also the debris of the smashed cult objects and related material that was created during the Josianic religious reform, were moved and dumped, mentioning particularly the Kidron Valley (2 Kgs 23,4,6,10,12)” (“The Jerusalem City-Dump in the Late Second Temple Period, Israel Exploration Journal 53 [2003], 17).

According to these scholars, the archaeology seems to indicate the garbage dump was in the Kidron Valley on the eastern side of the city towards the mount of Olives.


Indeed.


Feeding on trash?

“And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.” Isaiah 66:24 (ESV)

The text seems to indicate that this is referring to dead bodies, not living human beings or trash.


Now you're on to something. Now what does slaughter mean?


At first glance there isn't anything here I disagree with.


Did you actually read the context of what Josephus was talking about? This doesn't support your case for the Valley of Hinnom being a flaming garbage dump, this was about the people of Jerusalem throwing bodies over the walls of the city during the siege to get rid of the dead bodies as they could not bury them anymore.


Are these corpses living in your eyes?

“And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.” Isaiah 66:24 (ESV)

The text seems to indicate that this is referring to dead bodies, not living human beings or trash.

I will always be pulling you to the spiritual side of the conversation and away from the natural, physical side. So, I have to remind us of the words of Paul.

it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body 1 Corinthians 15:44

I believe we have two bodies. A natural, physical body or "outer man" AND a spiritual body or "inner man". See 2 Cor 4:16 below.

Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. 2 Corinthians 4:16

They are either spiritually dead and separated from God and his (eternal) life or alive and have his life (Jesus) in them. Both start out as a "natural" body, under the curse which is the power of sin and death which is a veil of separation from God. The Bible calls the natural (spiritually dead) version of each of them "flesh".

So, we can't say with 100% certainty that Isaiah 66:24 (and Jesus when he talks of this) is not referring to a spiritual body of mankind which is also calls "flesh" or "the flesh" or "body of Sin". See Romans 6:6 This is really Satan's body (sin and death) that God will destroy. This would make much sense because Revelation makes it very clear that the beasts powered by Satan (and the harlot or false Church of Rev 17-18 based on false world system of "Babylon") will be destroyed upon Jesus return/reappearing.

I have concluded that the Bible teaches that our dead, (natural) spirit man was a part of this "body of sin" or Satan's spiritual body, before we were reborn or regenerated because he too was "veiled" or blinded from Christ.

in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 2 Cor 4:4

This is much like a true believer on the side of light who is now part of the "body of Christ". 1 Cor 12:27. I am pretty confident this is referring to our spirit man inside us and not our physical body. However, there is a verse that says we (as believers) are "always carrying around the death of Jesus". Regardless of whether our natural body is part of Jesus body or not, it is ONE body made up of many people/spirits/parts. This makes sense because who was kicked out of the garden? Was it One mankind/one body or was it billions of bodies? We were all represented in Adam and when he died, we all died. Romans 5. Adam is/was natural mankind's "head" just as Jesus is the head of the new creation of eternally alive, spiritual mankind. Satan is the spiritual head of the Adamic creation just as Jesus is the spiritual head of the new creation but Satan is totally defeated.

Thus, I concluded that verses like Isaiah 66:24 could be referring mainly to the dead spiritual body and not my dead, natural body. But, it doesn't excluded the natural, dead bodies either as they are part of the "natural man". God tell us clearly the last enemy to be destroyed is "death". Wouldn't it make sense for God to destroy the "dead" spiritual man? Also, what is death? I submit to you that it is the very power of sin and darkness in our natural bodies that keeps us blind and separated from God. This is what God will destroy from what I find in scripture. He calls the dead spiritual body "unrighteousness" and he calls the eternally alive spiritual body of Christ "righteousness". He only accepts any sacrifices and offerings done in "righteousness" or in the very body of his Son, Jesus.

So, IMHO scripture teaches there are TWO kinds of flesh and there are two kinds of man. Natural and Spiritual. One from above and one from below. One is Genesis 1 (spiritual and "created") and one is Genesis 2 (natural, physical or "formed")

The natural, unregenerated man (unbeliever) has both a natural (spiritually dead) outer man (physical body) and a natural (spiritually dead) inner man.

The spiritual man reborn in Christ (believer) who is still physically alive today, also has a (spiritually dead) outer man (physical body) still, but his true self or inner man has been given God's very ETERNAL life who is Christ. Thus his TRUE self or "inner man" will NEVER die. His true being (inner man) has already been transferred from the Earthly realm of darkness (death) into Heaven itself. He just needs to lose the natural, physical body of death he is carrying around. As soon as he does, he will instantly see where he really exists. "Absent from the (physical) body, present with the Lord"!

I am so sorry I made this so long again. I just wanted to point out there are two kinds of flesh, physical and spiritual. They each can also be eternally alive (have the life of Chris in them) or eternally dead (natural).

Just as Jesus has one body in his Kingdom so does the enemy. The enemy's is called "the body of sin" or separation or death. These bodies have both a physical side and a spiritual side. They are separated by a "veil". This is why we don't know or can see God in our natural, physical body. The great news is that JESUS is STEALING all the body parts right out from under Satan's nose and he can't see it. The darkness can't see or comprehend/know the light.

The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. John 1:5

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him John 1:10

Sorry it's so long and confusing.

Kicked

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I will always be pulling you to the spiritual side of the conversation and away from the natural, physical side. So, I have to remind us of the words of Paul.

it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body 1 Corinthians 15:44

I believe we have two bodies. A natural, physical body or "outer man" AND a spiritual body or "inner man". See 2 Cor 4:16 below.

Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. 2 Corinthians 4:16

They are either spiritually dead and separated from God and his (eternal) life or alive and have his life (Jesus) in them. Both start out as a "natural" body, under the curse which is the power of sin and death which is a veil of separation from God. The Bible calls the natural (spiritually dead) version of each of them "flesh".

So, we can't say with 100% certainty that Isaiah 66:24 (and Jesus when he talks of this) is not referring to a spiritual body of mankind which is also calls "flesh" or "the flesh" or "body of Sin". See Romans 6:6 This is really Satan's body (sin and death) that God will destroy. This would make much sense because Revelation makes it very clear that the beasts powered by Satan (and the harlot or false Church of Rev 17-18 based on false world system of "Babylon") will be destroyed upon Jesus return/reappearing.

I have concluded that the Bible teaches that our dead, (natural) spirit man was a part of this "body of sin" or Satan's spiritual body, before we were reborn or regenerated because he too was "veiled" or blinded from Christ.

in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 2 Cor 4:4

This is much like a true believer on the side of light who is now part of the "body of Christ". 1 Cor 12:27. I am pretty confident this is referring to our spirit man inside us and not our physical body. However, there is a verse that says we (as believers) are "always carrying around the death of Jesus". Regardless of whether our natural body is part of Jesus body or not, it is ONE body made up of many people/spirits/parts. This makes sense because who was kicked out of the garden? Was it One mankind/one body or was it billions of bodies? We were all represented in Adam and when he died, we all died. Romans 5. Adam is/was natural mankind's "head" just as Jesus is the head of the new creation of eternally alive, spiritual mankind. Satan is the spiritual head of the Adamic creation just as Jesus is the spiritual head of the new creation but Satan is totally defeated.

Thus, I concluded that verses like Isaiah 66:24 could be referring mainly to the dead spiritual body and not my dead, natural body. But, it doesn't excluded the natural, dead bodies either as they are part of the "natural man". God tell us clearly the last enemy to be destroyed is "death". Wouldn't it make sense for God to destroy the "dead" spiritual man? Also, what is death? I submit to you that it is the very power of sin and darkness in our natural bodies that keeps us blind and separated from God. This is what God will destroy from what I find in scripture. He calls the dead spiritual body "unrighteousness" and he calls the eternally alive spiritual body of Christ "righteousness". He only accepts any sacrifices and offerings done in "righteousness" or in the very body of his Son, Jesus.

So, IMHO scripture teaches there are TWO kinds of flesh and there are two kinds of man. Natural and Spiritual. One from above and one from below. One is Genesis 1 (spiritual and "created") and one is Genesis 2 (natural, physical or "formed")

The natural, unregenerated man (unbeliever) has both a natural (spiritually dead) outer man (physical body) and a natural (spiritually dead) inner man.

The spiritual man reborn in Christ (believer) who is still physically alive today, also has a (spiritually dead) outer man (physical body) still, but his true self or inner man has been given God's very ETERNAL life who is Christ. Thus his TRUE self or "inner man" will NEVER die. His true being (inner man) has already been transferred from the Earthly realm of darkness (death) into Heaven itself. He just needs to lose the natural, physical body of death he is carrying around. As soon as he does, he will instantly see where he really exists. "Absent from the (physical) body, present with the Lord"!

I am so sorry I made this so long again. I just wanted to point out there are two kinds of flesh, physical and spiritual. They each can also be eternally alive (have the life of Chris in them) or eternally dead (natural).

Just as Jesus has one body in his Kingdom so does the enemy. The enemy's is called "the body of sin" or separation or death. These bodies have both a physical side and a spiritual side. They are separated by a "veil". This is why we don't know or can see God in our natural, physical body. The great news is that JESUS is STEALING all the body parts right out from under Satan's nose and he can't see it. The darkness can't see or comprehend/know the light.

The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. John 1:5

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him John 1:10

Sorry it's so long and confusing.

Kicked

Sorry, I just don't buy it.

The Hebrew word "peger" which means corpse is from the word "pagar," which means to be exhausted or faint. This gives the picture of a corpse as a body that is lying motionless and prostrate, which absolutely denotes a physical body.

Also, the "spiritual body" described in 1 Corinthians 15 is not a "spirit" it is a body that is like Christ's body, namely the one he was seen in when he rose from the dead. A glorified man of heaven. The "spiritual body" is also not in any way a reference to a negative aspect of who we are, but a description of a future body that we will attain at the resurrection. Your belief that we have two bodies at the same time is simply unsupported then. We have one body at all times, whether it resemble him formed from the dust or rather it bear the image of him who came from heaven.

 

[kickedoutofchurch]

Sorry, I just don't buy it.

The Hebrew word "peger" which means corpse is from the word "pagar," which means to be exhausted or faint. This gives the picture of a corpse as a body that is lying motionless and prostrate, which absolutely denotes a physical body.

Also, the "spiritual body" described in 1 Corinthians 15 is not a "spirit" it is a body that is like Christ's body, namely the one he was seen in when he rose from the dead. A glorified man of heaven. The "spiritual body" is also not in any way a reference to a negative aspect of who we are, but a description of a future body that we will attain at the resurrection. Your belief that we have two bodies at the same time is simply unsupported then. We have one body at all times, whether it resemble him formed from the dust or rather it bear the image of him who came from heaven.

That's ok. It is my belief that I was just sharing.

So, when Paul says we are the body of Christ, so you think he our actual natural, physical body?

Kicked

 

[kickedoutofchurch]

Free will needs to be another topic so I will not get into it here. I am only showing how not everyone (all) will be with the Father for eternity. When Jesus returns in the air those who are in Christ at that time, dead or alive, are the only ones who will be taken up to meet Jesus in the air. The Holy Spirit is also taken at the same time closing the door of salvation forever.

What is the "air"? Is it physical "air" or sky? Or is it a spiritual realm or dimension?

Something fun to ponder... This verse comes to mind.

in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Eph 2:2

You can also plug Eph 2:2 into the cross references to get more of an idea what Paul means by "air".

http://www.openbible.info/labs/cross-references/search?q=eph+2:2

God bless,

Kicked

 

[for_his_glory]

What is the "air"? Is it physical "air" or sky? Or is it a spiritual realm or dimension?

Something fun to ponder... This verse comes to mind.

in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Eph 2:2

You can also plug Eph 2:2 into the cross references to get more of an idea what Paul means by "air".

http://www.openbible.info/labs/cross-references/search?q=eph 2:2

God bless,

Kicked

air as in actual sky

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

That's ok. It is my belief that I was just sharing.

Yes, but our beliefs must be supported by the facts. We must not believe what is convenient, but what is true.

So, when Paul says we are the body of Christ, so you think he our actual natural, physical body?

I think it is a spiritual metaphor, that I call incarnational ministry. We are the hands and feet of Christ here on earth.

 

[By Grace]

Yes but I was a sociopath at one time. In seven years I changed dramatically. I can only imagine how much some wicked person could change in 700,000 years. They deserve a second chance. This life is extremely short!

How do you know that you were once a sociopath?
It is not in the nature of a sociopath to be concerned with others, so how do you account for that change?

1. Since I am aware that that sociopaths are
2. Blind to their disorder, thinking that nothing is wrong with them,
3. Incapable of empathetic expressions to others
4. Incapable of expressing remorse or sorrow
5. Grandiose to the extent of being megalomaniac

Your concern for others is highly contrary to such a personality disorder, and that disorder is so encompassing of one's personality, it renders a person very unlikely to be either seeing a need for, or for someone wanting to change his behavior. Therefore, I ask you these questions:

• How do you account for your change?
  
• How long did it take?
• Of what did your treatment for such a pernicious, life-dominating, and self-absorbed thought pattern consist?