I have a question for a Post-Trib advocate

[MisterE]

After the 1000 year Reign of Christ on Earth, (which occurs after the first Resurrection, which is the Resurrection of believers) a new heaven and new earth comes down out of the Father and the old passes away. Thus, Christ's Word will be fulfilled.
A return question. We know the Resurrection occurs at the Second Coming. Where is Scripture is it ever stated that there are TWO Returns of the Lord to earth? For that is what the "rapture doctrine" is stating.
Jesus returns, then leaves, then returns again. That would be a "third coming".

I think you can answer this question. How do Post-Tribbers reconcile these two events that happen at the same time. I am saying here to look at the chart (found in most apologetic style Pre Trib books), and assume they both occur at the same time, which is what the Post-Trib position holds, and explain why they seem to be overly dissimilar. The first point under the Rapture column is contrasted with the first point under the 2nd Coming column, and so on.

Before you reconcile these columns that happen at the same time, remember that you have to have believers in their natural bodies at the end of the 70th week of Daniel in order to populate the Millennium.

And, If you say that Christ comes for believers at the Rapture and then continues down to come for those believers at the 2nd Coming, that is two comings, or one coming with two phases. Good luck

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. The are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins

 

[JLB]

Christ comes WITH his own
2. No Translation of bodies

How can you say this when the scriptures plainly say otherwise?

The Rapture occurs at His coming, and is after the resurrection.

• that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

• For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

 

[MisterE]

How can you say this when the scriptures plainly say otherwise?

The Rapture occurs at His coming, and is after the resurrection.

I am not a Post Trib. I am a Pre Trib. I don't believe in Post Trib

Here is what a Pre Trib believes:

14 For we believe that Jesus died and was resurrected, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus (when he returns to the Father's house) those who have died in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord (the Rapture before the 70th week of Dan), will certainly not precede those who have died
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven (at the Rapture before the 70th week), with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will be resurrected first.

You can not have the Rapture at his 2nd Coming because there would only be gloried people entering the Millennium and therefore no one to populate the Millennial Kingdom.

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

I think you can answer this question. How do Post-Tribbers reconcile these two events that happen at the same time. I am saying here to look at the chart (found in most apologetic style Pre Trib books), and assume they both occur at the same time, which is what the Post-Trib position holds, and explain why they seem to be overly dissimilar. The first point under the Rapture column is contrasted with the first point under the 2nd Coming column, and so on.

Before you reconcile these columns that happen at the same time, remember that you have to have believers in their natural bodies at the end of the 70th week of Daniel in order to populate the Millennium.

And, If you say that Christ comes for believers at the Rapture and then continues down to come for those believers at the 2nd Coming, that is two comings, or one coming with two phases. Good luck

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. The are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins

Am I to understand that your assertion is that the two columns are opposite to one another? Iow, 1 to 1...2 to 2...etc?
Also, truly, I really do need some scriptural citations for these assertions. For example, number 2 in the second column. Where are you seeing that in Scripture? I have no idea so it will be hard for me to give you a comprehensive answer without understanding what Scriptures you are drawing your interpretations from.

 

[JLB]

You can not have the Rapture at his 2nd Coming because there would only be gloried people entering the Millennium and therefore no one to populate the Millennial Kingdom.

Brother, here is what scripture plainly and clearly says.

The Rapture occurs at His coming, and is after the resurrection.

• that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Yes, but resurrected/glorified believers do not marry or have children. The Post Trib position can not escape the idea that IF the Rapture happens at the Second Coming, all that is left to enter the Millennium is resurrected believers. You are not expected to answer this dilemma because even the Post Trib scholars (Gundry, Moo, etc) have yet to come up with an answer.

So? What's the dilemma? The bible is clear, only believers get to be resurrected, unbelievers stay dead until the end of the millennial reign (Rev. 20:5). There will be no need for marriage and procreation since this afterlife in the millennial kingdom is everlasting, and the church, as the Bride of Christ, is collectively married to Christ the Lamb.

 

[MisterE]

So? What's the dilemma? The bible is clear, only believers get to be resurrected, unbelievers stay dead until the end of the millennial reign (Rev. 20:5). There will be no need for marriage and procreation since this afterlife in the millennial kingdom is everlasting, and the church, as the Bride of Christ, is collectively married to Christ the Lamb.

I can't believe what I am reading. "no procreation" ???

Have you read Isa 65

19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem and take delight in my people; the sound of weeping and of crying will be heard in it no more.
20 “Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.

Glorified believers do not have children. As to your reference to Rev 20.5, glorified believers are not deceived. I do not know of one Post Trib scholar who holds your position. You have got a lot of studying to do.

 

[MisterE]

Am I to understand that your assertion is that the two columns are opposite to one another? Iow, 1 to 1...2 to 2...etc?
Also, truly, I really do need some scriptural citations for these assertions. For example, number 2 in the second column. Where are you seeing that in Scripture? I have no idea so it will be hard for me to give you a comprehensive answer without understanding what Scriptures you are drawing your interpretations from.

At the second coming all you have is a resurrection, there is no translation of saints. Those who make it through the Trib and are believers will go straight into the Millennium in their natural bodies. These will populate the Millennium. If the Rapture happened at the second coming, all believers would be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye and they would changed into incorruptible bodies. There would be nobody to populate the Millennial Kingdom. This will be the hardest point to reconcile.

Yes, 1 compared to 1, 2 compared to 2, etc.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I can't believe what I am reading. "no procreation" ???

Yes, no procreation, taught by Lord Jesus himself, no need for affirmation from any "scholar":

Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. (Matt. 22:29-30)

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

At the second coming all you have is a resurrection, there is no translation of saints. Those who make it through the Trib and are believers will go straight into the Millennium in their natural bodies. These will populate the Millennium. If the Rapture happened at the second coming, all believers would be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye and they would changed into incorruptible bodies. There would be nobody to populate the Millennial Kingdom. This will be the hardest point to reconcile.

Yes, 1 compared to 1, 2 compared to 2, etc.

You said:

At the second coming all you have is a resurrection, there is no translation of saints.

My response:
Biblical Resurrection is PHYSICAL in nature. Iow, it involves the BODY. Revelation 20:5 names the "first resurrection". Revelation 20:4 states of those Resurrected that they "lived again". 20:5 states that the non believers stay dead but then are resurrected after the thousand years. Thus we have two resurrections on our hands here but only one second coming in Revelation 19. So, what are you saying, that there are 3 resurrections and the first one stated to be first in Revelation 20 is not the first resurrection but rather the second and the second is the third?

 

[MisterE]

Thus we have two resurrections on our hands

Yes, there are two resurrections, just as there are more than one coming.

Acts 24.15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

GJohn 5.28,29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The first resurrection happens in phases of course, for all the just, first with Christ then Lazarus, later their is a resurrection of the 2 witnesses in the Tribulation, and others. The same is true in the Pre-Trib position, there are phases of Christ's coming. The first is when Christ walked the earth during his earthly ministry, next you have Christ coming in the air, and later you have Christ's coming to Mt Olives. I know you are not a Pre Tribber, but this is how Pre Tribbers interpret the NT.

 

[follower]

We see that both will occur at His coming.
Next, we see that both those who are raptured, and those who are resurrected will be caught up together to be with the Lord.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them

Quotes directly from The Creator's Own Word. He Knows. He Said So. It Is So.

Simply True!

 

[follower]

When do we go to the Father's house?

This is still a secret hidden in Him.

 

[MisterE]

This is still a secret hidden in Him.

It happens at the Rapture per GJohn 14. Yes, the Rapture is still a secret hidden in Him.

 

[Blade]

"Margaret MacDonald in Port Glasgow, Scotland in the 1800’s had a vision of a pretrib rapture, but she felt that the vision felt dark and evil as an untruth. When telling others of her vision many preachers ran with it as being true and started teaching their theories on pretrib rapture. There theories were handed down to us through such men as J.N. Darby, Edward Irving, C.I. Lewis and many others to present day. Notice the word theory. Theory is just the carnal minds way of interpreting something."

Old saying comes to mind "I have no horse in this race". I don't know anyone here so please I mean no offense. Its clear many do not search nor really study this. I can look back what at least 20y now when I went searching to see if anyone after Christ rose AMEN talked about Him coming before the great tribulation. I found one he was a Hymn writer and preacher. They showed the scrolls and what he wrote down it was Christ coming before the great tribulation. Its been dated 300-400ad. Some time after that I was watching TBN when Paul and Jan were young. There was some regular show on and the guy had white hair and he was talking about this Hymn writer. He also showed the scrolls then on other shows showed even more scrolls from believers dating before 300-400ad.

We can go back to the 1600.. yeah someone wrote about it back then. So when we live in world were so much information is in our hands and this tiny part I posted here is left out? Known preachers today talk about this. One view when it comes to the rapture (Caught up) really gets attacked and made fun of. No view should ever be made fun of attacked were not like that. So now that we see this and understand we can see the proof right? What proof? It was talked about. Yeah that's all it proves haha. So as it was written and they "eagerly await" Him its what I do.

A prophet that never liked being called that said "I am post tribulation BUT if Christ comes pre tribulation I am ready now". Back then of those times and seasons only the Father knows. So Christ telling them face to face I am going back to my Fathers house to make you a place so where I am you will be. Where I go you know. Did He lie or is this one of those verses that get this classic saying " what that really means. what Jesus was really saying". Yeah a great man of GOD I fully respect said "that is not saying what you think its saying". pffft

All of this.. is it not odd to you that since Christ rose went up (SHOUTING TIME) no one but no one just asked Him about it.. prayed seek fasted min, hours, days, weeks, months, years? Yeah odd here we are thousands of years later and He has never told anyone. So.. I am watching ready now. I am no pre mis post follower. I lean to pre but I cannot prove it and since I was never promised tomorrow .. Hmm I will live and watch for Him in the moment He gave me I will never miss Him. So pre tib never started in 1800. The simple fact a preacher I believe wrote about it in 1600..

 

[MisterE]

"Margaret MacDonald in Port Glasgow, Scotland in the 1800’s had a vision of a pretrib rapture, but she felt that the vision felt dark and evil as an untruth. When telling others of her vision many preachers ran with it as being true and started teaching their theories on pretrib rapture. There theories were handed down to us through such men as J.N. Darby, Edward Irving, C.I. Lewis and many others to present day. Notice the word theory. Theory is just the carnal minds way of interpreting something."

There is not an ounce of truth to what you say. Margaret did not have a pre-trib view. Have you read her story or are you getting your information from someone else. Never a good thing to do.

I challenge you to quote Margaret where she says that she espoused a pre-trib rapture.

 

[Indentured Servant]

John 14
1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”

When do we go to the Father's house? I am of the pre-trib persuasion and believe that we go to the Father's house at the time of the pre-trib Rapture.

This passage of scripture is not accurately translated, which can lead to confusion.

In Greek, it is stating that God is preparing to dwell "in," us. This is more consistent with the promise that Christ lives in is.

Each of us is a potential dwelling (room) in the residence (house) of God.

We are each described as a living stone that comprises His house, His temple, His dwelling.

It is not about the rapture, (pre-, mid-, or post-.), it is about us becoming one with Him and Him indwelling is permanently.

 

[MisterE]

In Greek, it is stating that God is preparing to dwell "in," us. This is more consistent with the promise that Christ lives in is.

Perhaps you could enlighten me on the Greek in this passage. I am most anxious to know what you are referring to.

 

[JLB]

At the second coming all you have is a resurrection, there is no translation of saints.

You will need to rethink your position on those who will be translated.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

• that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

So you have the first part right, the resurrection and translation occur at His coming.


However we see those who are alive and remain will indeed be caught up together with the dead in Christ.

• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

We will all be gathered together.