I have a question for a Post-Trib advocate

[RandyK]

You equated belief in "anti-Christ" to a person today making an " eternal decision" by failing to believe the truth of the gospel the first time hearing it .
Let me help you remember:

2Thessalonians 2:6-12
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Where did I say "first time?" People are all the time making eternal decisions when confronted with God's Word. Sometimes final choices are immediate and final. At other times, they are gradual, though just as fatal.

I said nothing about "first time." You added that. Your "reminder" doesn't indicate that. Your claim is not only fraudulent, but it is haughty.

 

[Consecrated Life]

2Th 2:6-12
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Anybody who commits to following separation from God and living independent of God by default enters into a delusion that God allows. The delusion that is available is not only self-deception, but even more, Satanic deception.

So you believe this " strong delusion " has already been sent to them by God ?
What year do you believe God sent this "strong delusion" ?

 

[RandyK]

2Th 2:6-12
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

So you believe this " strong delusion " has already been sent to them by God ?
What year do you believe God sent this "strong delusion" ?

It became available the moment Adam and Eve considered eating the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They did not, however, buy into the full delusion, because they reserved their commitment to a partial rebellion.

Both Adam and Eve were ashamed and apparently wanted to continue in fellowship with God. But once they had sinned their posterity had available to them the temptation to rebel against God's word as well as to fall under the delusion that rebellion will work.

 

[Consecrated Life]

It became available the moment Adam and Eve considered eating the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They did not, however, buy into the full delusion, because they reserved their commitment to a partial rebellion.

Adam & Eve are not "damned" they are with God.
You should stop now .

2Thessalonians 2:6-12
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[william1213]

What would be God's purpose in unleashing Satan on believers when He is unleashing Satan on a world of unbelievers to the end that all who have denied Him cannot be allowed to believe ?

2Th 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Those who are false believers will be brought to light. And those who have not yet chosen Christ will have that option. Think about this, if there is a pre trib Rapture, why have the Tribulation at all? A pre trib rapture IMPLIES all of the Righteous are gone. The wicked already have Hell, why a Tribulation too? There will be some sheep hidden in with the goats. The Tribulation will bring them out. Why then would the Good Shepherd leave sheep without a shepherd? We must all be prepared to go through the Tribulation. Steel gets stronger when it goes through the fire. Besides, we have work to do. Trying to save people in a world that is doomed. It is like Josiah. He read the scroll they found in the Temple and asked God about it. God told him Israel was doomed. They had sinned too much. But Josiah still did his best to make things right, even knowing it was too late. We have to find the last remaining Chosen before the Second Coming.

 

[william1213]

Adam & Eve are not "damned" they are with God.
You should stop now .

2Thessalonians 2:6-12
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I would also argue that Cain is there too. Even as horrible as his sin was, at NO TIME did God act angry. God acted disappointed if anything. He even backed off and gave Cain comfort when Cain thought the punishment was too severe. God NEVER spoke to Cain as one who was damned. I think Cain was redeemed.

 

[william1213]

Here are the characteristics of the two phases of Christ's return. As you can see, these returns have nothing in common. No matter how you slice it, there are "TWO Returns":

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. vChrist judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. The are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins

No. Christ returns ONCE, at the end of times. He catches up the Faithful in the air to separate them from those who remain. In the twinkling of an eye, the Faithful in the air with Jesus will be transformed into their new bodies and everybody left will die and their bodies and everything else will be transformed into the New Heaven and the New Earth. He doesn't catch us up to Heaven, He does it to separate us from those destined for destruction. It is all ONE event, not two.

 

[RandyK]

Those who are false believers will be brought to light. And those who have not yet chosen Christ will have that option. Think about this, if there is a pre trib Rapture, why have the Tribulation at all? A pre trib rapture IMPLIES all of the Righteous are gone. The wicked already have Hell, why a Tribulation too? There will be some sheep hidden in with the goats. The Tribulation will bring them out. Why then would the Good Shepherd leave sheep without a shepherd? We must all be prepared to go through the Tribulation. Steel gets stronger when it goes through the fire. Besides, we have work to do. Trying to save people in a world that is doomed. It is like Josiah. He read the scroll they found in the Temple and asked God about it. God told him Israel was doomed. They had sinned too much. But Josiah still did his best to make things right, even knowing it was too late. We have to find the last remaining Chosen before the Second Coming.

What many do not understand in all of this Pre, Mid, and Post-Trib argumentation is that the "Tribulation" was defined by Jesus as applying to the *entire age.* Yes he did!

In Luke 21 Jesus defined the Great Tribulation as the greatest punishment the Jewish People will ever have to go through, lasting for the entire NT era. Because they rejected their Messiah, their people, as a whole, have had to go through wandering without a homeland, up until recently. They are still in trouble!

So what people are so concerned about, namely the "Tribulation," has actually been going on throughout the NT period. It began in 70 AD with the Roman destruction of the Jewish Temple and Jerusalem.

At that time, Jewish believers in Jesus had to go through it too--not because God's Wrath was being poured out on them, but only because as Jews they had to go through what their unbelieving brethren had brought upon the people as a whole.

Jewish believers suffered the abuses of their unbelieving brethren, which is precisely why God sent the nation into this Tribulation, to judge the wickedness of the people generally at that time. And Jewish believers, once scattered abroad like the rest of their brethren also suffered abuses from the pagan countries into which they went.

This is the state of Christianity throughout the present age. We experience blessings from God for our obedience. But we also experience Tribulation from the unbelieving population around us.

So a lot of the hype about a future Tribulation is just Futurism on steroids. Lest you think I'm not a Futurist I want to say that I am a Futurist--just not believing that the coming Antichristian reign of Terror is particularly worse than anything in history thus far.

The portrait of the rule of Antichrist was given to the historic Church to warn the Church in all ages, and in all countries. It is our common experience, as it will be at the end of the age.

The Reign of Antichrist is coming. But there have already been many Antichristian reigns. This is just one last one--not greater than the others, but only the last one.

The "Tribulation" was called the "greatest in history" only because it is the longest Jewish punishment in history--not because it is particularly more severe in the short term.

Satan is not omnipresent--he only seems such because he apparently has hordes of demonic followers. Neither will the Antichrist be omnipresent, encompassing the entire earth with his rule. He will rule primarily in Europe over 10 nations.

But his influence will be global because sin and rebellion will be global in this last phase in history. It will be a post-Christian world. The demons, having been cast out, will bring back with them 7 more. We need to stay prayed up, and we will prevail, with God beside us.

 

[william1213]

I was tongue in cheek in using *your characterization* that persecution of the Church by the Beast is "God's Wrath." It isn't. The persecution of the Church is something Jesus predicted would be our experience until the Kingdom comes. It is an honor to be hated for being good--not a shame.

The Revelation depicts Wrath as coming against the forces of Antichrist for persecuting the Church. God is not sending Christ to visit His Wrath upon His own People!

Those in the Revelation who are persecuted and martyred by the Beast are honored and praised--not condemned as having "missed the Rapture." You seem to want to twist things around.

God said His anger burns forever. God's wrath is a natural product of His Perfect Justice. But wrath is not that compatible with love. It isn't something God wants. And after the End of Times, not something He will need. Notice the Bible always speaks of God POURING out His wrath. I think at the End of Times, God will pour out His wrath creating the Lake of Fire. Basically ridding Himself of it since He will not need it anymore. It isn't that God created it FOR a place of punishment, but rather His wrath belongs in the same place as those who refused His love.

 

[MisterE]

No. Christ returns ONCE, at the end of times. He catches up the Faithful in the air to separate them from those who remain. In the twinkling of an eye, the Faithful in the air with Jesus will be transformed into their new bodies and everybody left will die and their bodies and everything else will be transformed into the New Heaven and the New Earth. He doesn't catch us up to Heaven, He does it to separate us from those destined for destruction. It is all ONE event, not two.

So who will enter the Millennium in their natural bodies so they can populate the Millennial Kingdom?

 

[MisterE]

No. Christ returns ONCE, at the end of times. He catches up the Faithful in the air to separate them from those who remain. In the twinkling of an eye, the Faithful in the air with Jesus will be transformed into their new bodies and everybody left will die and their bodies and everything else will be transformed into the New Heaven and the New Earth. He doesn't catch us up to Heaven, He does it to separate us from those destined for destruction. It is all ONE event, not two.

Can you reconcile the two columns. No Post Tribber has done it yet

 

[RandyK]

God said His anger burns forever. God's wrath is a natural product of His Perfect Justice. But wrath is not that compatible with love. It isn't something God wants.

On its face this is wrong. Since God has wrath, it is part of His "love." His love requires that Justice take place, and that righteousness prevail even in an ungodly, wicked world. And so, wrath is an expression of God's love, along with His blessings for those who are obedient.

And after the End of Times, not something He will need. Notice the Bible always speaks of God POURING out His wrath. I think at the End of Times, God will pour out His wrath creating the Lake of Fire. Basically ridding Himself of it since He will not need it anymore. It isn't that God created it FOR a place of punishment, but rather His wrath belongs in the same place as those who refused His love.

Well yes, all bad things must come to an end, I suppose, in a world in which God must prevail. He has created a story that is replete with independent choices, along with their consequences. But they must be resolved, as you suggest.

Death itself is thrown into the Lake of Fire, meaning that the Lake of Fire is not really a country where people will live. It is the resolution of evil, by placing trash in its container, and destroying it.

People will be permanently removed form this earth, and as such, go to the Lake of Fire forever. But where they go after they are removed from this earth, I don't claim to know. The Bible calls it "Outer Darkness." We don't need to know, perhaps?

 

[MisterE]

No. Christ returns ONCE, at the end of times. He catches up the Faithful in the air to separate them from those who remain. In the twinkling of an eye, the Faithful in the air with Jesus will be transformed into their new bodies and everybody left will die and their bodies and everything else will be transformed into the New Heaven and the New Earth. He doesn't catch us up to Heaven, He does it to separate us from those destined for destruction. It is all ONE event, not two.

You can reconcile the two columns as one return. I am admitting that there are not two returns.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Those who are false believers will be brought to light. And those who have not yet chosen Christ will have that option. Think about this, if there is a pre trib Rapture, why have the Tribulation at all? A pre trib rapture IMPLIES all of the Righteous are gone.

Obvious that you believe the tribulation to be all about Christians. It is the natural tendency to make all events about us .
The tribulation is not about us it is about God bringing to the Jews the Messiah they rejected Jesus Christ over.
Jesus prophesied about this detail of Israel receiving their false Messiah:
John 5:43
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

The fact that the tribulation ground zero is the Temple Mount ought to alert you to the fact.
Pre-trib or post trib we are not involved until all accounts are settled between God and the Jews.

 

[william1213]

Obvious that you believe the tribulation to be all about Christians. It is the natural tendency to make all events about us .
The tribulation is not about us it is about God bringing to the Jews the Messiah they rejected Jesus Christ over.
Jesus prophesied about this detail of Israel receiving their false Messiah:
John 5:43
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

The fact that the tribulation ground zero is the Temple Mount ought to alert you to the fact.
Pre-trib or post trib we are not involved until all accounts are settled between God and the Jews.

Yes. The Messiah they will accept is the Antichrist. He will fill the role they EXPECTED the Messiah to fill that Jesus did not.

 

[william1213]

So who will enter the Millennium in their natural bodies so they can populate the Millennial Kingdom?

Where does the Bible speak of populating the Millennial Kingdom?

 

[william1213]

Can you reconcile the two columns. No Post Tribber has done it yet

What part did I not reconcile??

 

[MisterE]

Where does the Bible speak of populating the Millennial Kingdom?

If you can't answer that question you really ought not to be posting out here. See Isa 65:20 for one verse. Glorified people don't die.

 

[william1213]

On its face this is wrong. Since God has wrath, it is part of His "love." His love requires that Justice take place, and that righteousness prevail even in an ungodly, wicked world. And so, wrath is an expression of God's love, along with His blessings for those who are obedient.

Well yes, all bad things must come to an end, I suppose, in a world in which God must prevail. He has created a story that is replete with independent choices, along with their consequences. But they must be resolved, as you suggest.

Death itself is thrown into the Lake of Fire, meaning that the Lake of Fire is not really a country where people will live. It is the resolution of evil, by placing trash in its container, and destroying it.

People will be permanently removed form this earth, and as such, go to the Lake of Fire forever. But where they go after they are removed from this earth, I don't claim to know. The Bible calls it "Outer Darkness." We don't need to know, perhaps?

The point is He will not need wrath anymore once everything is brought to perfection. Everything I see in the Bible suggests all things that God creates are eternal, after their beginnings. Only God has no beginning. Even our Earthly bodies are simply broken down to their elements. Otherwise God would simply destroy all evil instead of putting it all in a dump.

 

[william1213]

If you can't answer that question you really ought not to be posting out here. See Isa 65:20 for one verse. Glorified people don't die.

You are mixing verses. Those speak of JERUSALEM not a worldwide Reign of Christ. Are you a moderator to be telling people where they can post or where they can't?? Is your OPINION the only one allowed?? Your pride reveals the truth.