I have a question for a Post-Trib advocate

[william1213]

If you can't answer that question you really ought not to be posting out here. See Isa 65:20 for one verse. Glorified people don't die.

I am quite aware that Glorified people do not die. Thank you for drawing my attention to your hubris. I know now to ignore your posts and comments. This entire site is supposed to be edifying to everybody and a place to learn. Goodbye.

 

[hawkman]

TOS1.2 Those who identify themselves as Christians will be held accountable to conduct themselves as such. If they are truly governed by the Holy Spirit, they will not continually engage in goading, mocking, insulting, trolling, berating or inciting other members to anger and resentment. They will post in a Spirit of kindness and respect, even if there are doctrinal disagreements, and be quick to reconcile if differences of opinion should get heated. Disciplinary actions will be taken against those whom staff regards to be naming the name of Christ and yet are holding the truth in unrighteousness.

 

[william1213]

I hope you cited him for his comment too. Telling me I shouldn't be posting on that thread because I was not aware of a verse that had nothing to do with what we were talking about.

 

[for_his_glory]

Margaret MacDonald in Port Glasgow, Scotland in the 1800’s had a vision of a pretrib rapture, but she felt that the vision felt dark and evil as an untruth. When telling others of her vision many preachers ran with it as being true and started teaching their theories on pretrib rapture. There theories were handed down to us through such men as J.N. Darby, Edward Irving, C.I. Lewis and many others to present day. Notice the word theory. Theory is just the carnal minds way of interpreting something.

I want to show you there is no scripture that supports a seven year tribulation. The Bible never talks about a seven year great tribulation, but 3½ only as we will always have tribulations and persecutions until the day of judgment when Jesus returns in the air to gather those who have endured all the tribulations and persecutions for the witness of Christ and places them in safety until he makes an end to all the abominations of the world and Satan is cast into the lake of fire with the beast and the false prophet.

God speaks to us in scripture of a 3 1/2 year tribulation period (not a seven year) as being time, times and half time which equals 1260 days = 3 ½ years or 3 ½ Times – Hebrew calendar only had 30 days for each month and this is where you get 1260 days or 3 ½ years.
[Scripture reference]
Revelation 12:14; Daniel 7:25; Daniel 12:7
1260 days – Revelation 11:3; Revelation 12:6
42 months – Revelation 11:2; Revelation 13:5

The abomination of desolation was 1260 years (a year is as a day with the Lord) of Papal Rome rule from 538AD with Emperor Justinian’s decree and under the military protection of Belisarius and the beast (Pope) until the deadly wound came in 1798 by General Berthier who made his entrance into Rome and abolished the papal government and established a secular one. This is also confirmed in Revelation 12:6 the church of Jesus would hide in the wilderness for exactly 1260 days (years) or 3 ½ years. This was the time when Rome persecuted the Christians and killed them which were approximately 500 million saints slain for the cause of their faith in Jesus. 1798 – 538 = 1260 days/years. Napoleon had closed down the Catholic Church and the Papacy and its power was thought to be forever broken. The wound was largely healed in 1929 when Mussolini gave the Vatican back to the Pope and established it as a country in it's own right in the Lateran Treaty. Today the Vatican has formal diplomatic relations with almost every country in the world, Revelation 13:3, 12; Matthew 24:15; Revelation 12:6.

Jesus said those who will endure in the faith of Christ unto the end the same shall be saved. This means the end of Papal rule in 1798 which now allowed the Gospel to be preached through out the world as we have been set free from Papal authority even though Papal Rome will try to take its seat again to rule the nations from Jerusalem, which is also an abomination of desolation to God as Satan said “I will ascend into heaven; I will exalt my throne above the stars of God (other ruling powers) I will sit also upon the Mount of the Congregation in the sides of the north (Jerusalem). I will ascend above the clouds; I will be like the Most High”. The so called seven year trib, which I have explained is only 3½ years in history that has already passed and is not a certain future event. There is much tribulation yet to come through Papal Rome as the world will face their tyranny once again and then the end shall come when God will judge the world as he separates the wheat from the tares, or the goats from the sheep and make end to all sin, Matthew 24:13, 14; Rev 14:14-20.

There is no mention in scripture about a secret quiet rapture or a second chance after the saints of God are caught up to meet Jesus in the air as Jesus will descend with a shout and with the trump of God. This does not sound like it’s going to be a quiet so called rapture does it and every eye will see him and every knee will bow saints and those who choose to reject Jesus. The Holy Spirit dwells in us the believers and isn’t something that just floats around in the air so for this reason when we are taken up so is the Holy Spirit giving no one a second chance because we are sealed by Gods Spirit for Salvation and after the Spirit is taken up no one has a second chance, 1Thessalonians 4:16; Revelation 1:7; John 14:17; 2Corinthians 1:21, 22 .

 

[for_his_glory]

I would also argue that Cain is there too. Even as horrible as his sin was, at NO TIME did God act angry. God acted disappointed if anything. He even backed off and gave Cain comfort when Cain thought the punishment was too severe. God NEVER spoke to Cain as one who was damned. I think Cain was redeemed.

Genesis 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. 2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. 6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. 8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him. 9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? 10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. 11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; 12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.


1. Abel was a keeper of the sheep and by faith gave the best offering of his firstlings and was counted righteous by God, Numbers 18:17; Hebrews 11:4
2. Cain was a tiller of the ground, but did not give by faith that which God instructed as being his best offering in honoring God for what God gave him, Numbers 18:12
3. Cain was angry as God had no respect for his offering, but gave him room to repent telling him if he did well God would respect his offering. Cain was given a chance to do better and also to rule over Abel as being the big brother setting a good example to Abel, but instead because of his anger towards Abel and God respecting his offering he killed his brother. Because he had no faith and his heart was hardened God cursed him from the earth that it would never yield Cain any crops.

We see this even today being the very selfish spirit that dwelled in Cain that has hardened peoples hearts that have turned away from God as all they think about is self being that of their own god following the abominations of this world.

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Blade]

Hey all been while but I don't know you so please don't take any of this personal ok? What I share has been on the Internet before I found it. So I had heard about 1830 and read it. I wanted to search to see if anyone talked about Caught up happening before the great tribulation. I found a Hymn writer who wrote about Caught up happening before the great tribulation and you could read one of scrolls and they are dated 300-400AD. Yeah.. I don't know what to say.. I found this so many years ago. Then watching TBN one day when Paul and Jan were alive and not that old yet. There was another man white hair had a show on TBN and I SAW IT! He talked about the same Hymn writer and showed those scrolls. Later he had shows showing more stuff before 300-400AD.

Then what 1-2 years ago they found 1600 someone wrote about caught up happening before the great tribulation. Its 2024 we have the world of information. There is one that was pre trib but now is post trib and most would know his name. Great man of God but with a big smile said "who reads the bible and comes away with pre-trib yeah no one". To that I posted here I am. I can see pre and mid and post but it is not clearly written anywhere. Like talking about Christ saying He is going back to His Fathers house to make us a home and will come back and get us. If you asked me they would clearly understand that. Well go search on old Jewish wedding. I found it being told not by Christians but Jews that did not believe in Yeshua.

See I look for those that say at the start or end "this is what I personally believe and why". So from something that some say started in 1830.. gonna have to kindly lovingly disagree. Seven year trib. There are scholars out there so much wiser then I that say there is sever year and others say there is not. I cannot just toss one side just because I don't believe. Its very clear we don't know. I can find pre mid and post I just can not prove each one and its very clear no onea else can. I just believe what is written and He is coming voice shout trump dead rise we change get caught up together.. and this comforts me. I live in the now.. today I watch and make sure I am ready. Some do not .. I cannot speak for GOD but anytime I doubted Him .. that doubt always stops Him. He will not go against our will. So if He comes and you do not believe.. you go anyway?

A prophet that did not like being called a prophet talking about the Rapture said "I am post tribulation...but if He comes pre-tribulation I am ready now". That is wise. This man was old and had studied so much.. didn't always agree but .. that was very wise. He knew what was not written.

 

[MisterE]

So if He comes and you do not believe.. you go anyway?

Yes, Post Tribbers will go anyway at the Pre-Trib rapture

 

[william1213]

Genesis 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. 2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. 6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. 8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him. 9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? 10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. 11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; 12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.


1. Abel was a keeper of the sheep and by faith gave the best offering of his firstlings and was counted righteous by God, Numbers 18:17; Hebrews 11:4
2. Cain was a tiller of the ground, but did not give by faith that which God instructed as being his best offering in honoring God for what God gave him, Numbers 18:12
3. Cain was angry as God had no respect for his offering, but gave him room to repent telling him if he did well God would respect his offering. Cain was given a chance to do better and also to rule over Abel as being the big brother setting a good example to Abel, but instead because of his anger towards Abel and God respecting his offering he killed his brother. Because he had no faith and his heart was hardened God cursed him from the earth that it would never yield Cain any crops.

We see this even today being the very selfish spirit that dwelled in Cain that has hardened peoples hearts that have turned away from God as all they think about is self being that of their own god following the abominations of this world.

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Ok. Was that meant to agree or disagree or what?? We know those verses. So I am not sure what you were trying to say with that

 

[JLB]

When does Jesus come again and take believers to his Father's house?

Come again is specific language to the Parousia, or coming which is referred to as the second coming.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


For sake of understanding I will add that His appearing and His coming are the same event as every eye will see Him.

John says it this way -

And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.
1 John 2:28

 

[JLB]

Yes, Post Tribbers will go anyway at the Pre-Trib rapture

How can you say pretrib rapture when the resurrection of the dead in Christ is before the rapture, at His coming… Second Coming.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

 

[MisterE]

How can you say pretrib rapture when the resurrection of the dead in Christ is before the rapture, at His coming… Second Coming.

It has already been demonstrated that the rapture can not happen at the Second Coming (using definitions of the post tribbers) because then there will not be anyone to go into the Millennial reign in their natural bodies and populate the Millennial Kingdom. Have you seen the two columns that I posted out here, no post-tribber was able to reconcile the two columns. It is the chart of the Rapture vs the Second Coming. Let me know if you need me to repost that.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

It has already been demonstrated that the rapture can not happen at the Second Coming (using definitions of the post tribbers) because then there will not be anyone to go into the Millennial reign in their natural bodies and populate the Millennial Kingdom. Have you seen the two columns that I posted out here, no post-tribber was able to reconcile the two columns. It is the chart of the Rapture vs the Second Coming. Let me know if you need me to repost that.

No one to populate the earth? Really? What about the Great Multitude which "no one can number"? Don't you know that resurrection means resurrection of God's people from all past generations throughout church history? Not limited to the last generation in the Great Tribulation?

 

[MisterE]

No one to populate the earth? Really? What about the Great Multitude which "no one can number"? Don't you know that resurrection means resurrection of God's people from all past generations throughout church history? Not limited to the last generation in the Great Tribulation?

Yes, but resurrected/glorified believers do not marry or have children. The Post Trib position can not escape the idea that IF the Rapture happens at the Second Coming, all that is left to enter the Millennium is resurrected believers. You are not expected to answer this dilemma because even the Post Trib scholars (Gundry, Moo, etc) have yet to come up with an answer.

 

[JLB]

It has already been demonstrated that the rapture can not happen at the Second Coming

Nothing has been demonstrated as such.


Jesus Christ is the truth.

Here are His words. You either choose to believe them or not.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

• For this we say to you by the word of the Lord

• that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord

• will by no means precede those who are asleep.

 

[for_his_glory]

Ok. Was that meant to agree or disagree or what?? We know those verses. So I am not sure what you were trying to say with that

In your post #66 you were talking about Cain being with God and I disagree with that by what has already been written in scripture.

 

[william1213]

In your post #66 you were talking about Cain being with God and I disagree with that by what has already been written in scripture.

Nothing in scripture says Cain is in Hell or anywhere else. It is just as likely he was redeemed and is in Heaven as any other. Go back and read again.

 

[william1213]

Genesis 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. 2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. 6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. 8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him. 9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? 10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. 11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; 12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.


1. Abel was a keeper of the sheep and by faith gave the best offering of his firstlings and was counted righteous by God, Numbers 18:17; Hebrews 11:4
2. Cain was a tiller of the ground, but did not give by faith that which God instructed as being his best offering in honoring God for what God gave him, Numbers 18:12
3. Cain was angry as God had no respect for his offering, but gave him room to repent telling him if he did well God would respect his offering. Cain was given a chance to do better and also to rule over Abel as being the big brother setting a good example to Abel, but instead because of his anger towards Abel and God respecting his offering he killed his brother. Because he had no faith and his heart was hardened God cursed him from the earth that it would never yield Cain any crops.

We see this even today being the very selfish spirit that dwelled in Cain that has hardened peoples hearts that have turned away from God as all they think about is self being that of their own god following the abominations of this world.

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Your claim that he had no faith and a hardened heart are your own words. Not in scripture. So it is YOUR OPINION, not what scripture actually says. Personally I think the reason why Cains offering was rejected is because he showed not care for God's providence. Abel was a shepherd. He knew all he did was guide and protect the flock. God made the grass grow, made them breed in season, kept them healthy and produced the young. Abel knew God did most of the work. Cain however, being a farmer, only saw the work HE did. He didn't realize,.like Paul did, that you can plant and water, but only God makes the growth. He only saw HIS EFFORT. Why should God get the best when Cain did all the work? So he kept the best for himself. One of the reasons God cursed him as He did. If Cain wouldn't acknowledge God's part, God wouldn't do His part for Cain. The biggest part of the curse, and the part Cain said was too much for him to bear and thus his fear of being killed was, since the Earth wouldn't give him its bounty, he would have to KILL to eat. He killed his brother and now he would have to kill to live. A carnivore in a world of vegetarians. You can imagine what kind of monster they would see him as. But still, God NEVER spoke angrily with Cain. He never spoke in a damning way. Sounds like God gave him a chance to repent. The Bible doesn't say what became of Cain. So nobody knows. I was expressing my opinion based on what I read.

 

[for_his_glory]

Your claim that he had no faith and a hardened heart are your own words. Not in scripture. So it is YOUR OPINION, not what scripture actually says. Personally I think the reason why Cains offering was rejected is because he showed not care for God's providence. Abel was a shepherd. He knew all he did was guide and protect the flock. God made the grass grow, made them breed in season, kept them healthy and produced the young. Abel knew God did most of the work. Cain however, being a farmer, only saw the work HE did. He didn't realize,.like Paul did, that you can plant and water, but only God makes the growth. He only saw HIS EFFORT. Why should God get the best when Cain did all the work? So he kept the best for himself. One of the reasons God cursed him as He did. If Cain wouldn't acknowledge God's part, God wouldn't do His part for Cain. The biggest part of the curse, and the part Cain said was too much for him to bear and thus his fear of being killed was, since the Earth wouldn't give him its bounty, he would have to KILL to eat. He killed his brother and now he would have to kill to live. A carnivore in a world of vegetarians. You can imagine what kind of monster they would see him as. But still, God NEVER spoke angrily with Cain. He never spoke in a damning way. Sounds like God gave him a chance to repent. The Bible doesn't say what became of Cain. So nobody knows. I was expressing my opinion based on what I read.

Sorry, but I can not add to that of what God's word has already said in which I gave. Look up the ungodly lineage of Cain. Genesis 4:1-24. The mark that God put on Cain prevented Cain from anyone killing him as he was cursed by God to be a restless wander cast away from the presence of God.

 

[for_his_glory]

Nothing in scripture says Cain is in Hell or anywhere else. It is just as likely he was redeemed and is in Heaven as any other. Go back and read again.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The only thing that goes back to God after we die is the very breath He breathed into us making us a living soul.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Here dust + breath/spirit from God = a living soul. When the flesh dies physically it returns back to the dust of the ground and our spirit is preserved with God for final judgment.

Genesis 3:19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecc 12:7 then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

We return to the dust of the ground when this physical body dies and our breath/spirit returns to God as we wait for Gods final judgment when Christ returns.

​

 

[william1213]

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The only thing that goes back to God after we die is the very breath He breathed into us making us a living soul.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Here dust + breath/spirit from God = a living soul. When the flesh dies physically it returns back to the dust of the ground and our spirit is preserved with God for final judgment.

Genesis 3:19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecc 12:7 then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

We return to the dust of the ground when this physical body dies and our breath/spirit returns to God as we wait for Gods final judgment when Christ returns.

​

Alright then.