I misled us on the issue of divorce - wrong interpretation

[JohnDB]

For those looking for a good translation concerning this issue.

ISR 98 is a messianic Jewish translation not from America... It's from South Africa.

Outside of all the influences of Westernized society.

 

[Wrg1405]

That was not meant as a personal attack but a general observation. Scripture transcends all cultures and all ages of history, and is as fresh and applicable today as it was when Moses wrote the Torah or Paul wrote his epistles. The Word of God is a living Word, and a powerful Word (Heb 4:12,13) , and all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and therefore it is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness (2 Tim 3:16,17). It is a given that it must be rightly divided (or interpreted) comparing spiritual things with spiritual, and certainly by the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

Thanks for clarifying and I'm sorry if I came across grumpy. In one of my posts I was trying to say what you have said. I believe the bible, the word of God should shape our culture and society and not the other way around. God bless ya.

 

[JohnDB]

Thanks for clarifying and I'm sorry if I came across grumpy. In one of my posts I was trying to say what you have said. I believe the bible, the word of God should shape our culture and society and not the other way around. God bless ya.

I so wish what you said here would be true. Unfortunately this issue, along with others in history, has created warped translations over the centuries.
It was this warping that started the fight between the Samaritans and the Jews and various other fights in history.

Kinda shameful really. We want the scriptures to say and mean what we want instead of letting them tell us what we need to hear.

When Paul said " Therefore there is now no condemnation for those of us in Christ Jesus" it's one of the biggest understatements ever in history. But some still look for reasons to condemn brothers and sisters in Christ.

I too have been slow and stiff-necked in learning this. And for this I still regularly need forgiveness and repentance. Not that there is not a line between lip service and real belief...but the line can really be fluid and difficult to find at times.

 

[Wrg1405]

When Paul said " Therefore there is now no condemnation for those of us in Christ Jesus" it's one of the biggest understatements ever in history. But some still look for reasons to condemn brothers and sisters in Christ.

I agree with you totally. It wasn't until I studied that particular verse comparing it with KJV (as preached in church) and the more modern versions, that I came to realise I was putting myself under the law and not the precious saving loving grace of our Father. I came to the conclusion after doing really in depth research that Romans 8:1 is "There,is no condemnation for those in Christ" the rest of this verse per the KJV was not originally written, it was taken from verse 4 and added yet still left in verse 4.

When I looked at this statement I wondered if I truly was in Christ cause I was walking around waiting for the sky to fall in. God graciously took me to Romans 5:1-2 and he asked me to look at the word FAITH. As follows.

pisteuō (4100), pistis (4102): believe, faith. This verb (pisteuō) and the related noun (pistis) refer to confidence that something is real, with a strong implication that action will ensue from this belief. While faith can be rather mundane (e.g., believing a report, 1 Cor 11:18), in the NT it almost always refers to faith in God or Christ. Such faith entails active belief, entrusting oneself completely to God.

I thought to myself "Hey wait a minute, I beleive in Jesus, I beleive he walked the earth, I beleive he is the Son of God, I beleive he died and rose again for me to be reconciled to God" I said "God I have this faith" he then said now read John 6:29 and look at the word 'Beleive' when I did I was gobsmacked. It's 4100 as above relating to 4102 as above.

My chains started to loosen. God said "Now trust me. I do not condemn you, I love you so so much"
This revelation came 27 years into my Christian life.

Oops I'm sorry I have digressed. Anyway it wasn't until I started really looking into scripture, looking for myself, rather than being told to beleive this I took a Barean root. So glad I did.

Sorry everyone just wanted to share with you what set me free.

 

[JohnDB]

I agree with you totally. It wasn't until I studied that particular verse comparing it with KJV (as preached in church) and the more modern versions, that I came to realise I was putting myself under the law and not the precious saving loving grace of our Father. I came to the conclusion after doing really in depth research that Romans 8:1 is "There,is no condemnation for those in Christ" the rest of this verse per the KJV was not originally written, it was taken from verse 4 and added yet still left in verse 4.

When I looked at this statement I wondered if I truly was in Christ cause I was walking around waiting for the sky to fall in. God graciously took me to Romans 5:1-2 and he asked me to look at the word FAITH. As follows.

pisteuō (4100), pistis (4102): believe, faith. This verb (pisteuō) and the related noun (pistis) refer to confidence that something is real, with a strong implication that action will ensue from this belief. While faith can be rather mundane (e.g., believing a report, 1 Cor 11:18), in the NT it almost always refers to faith in God or Christ. Such faith entails active belief, entrusting oneself completely to God.

I thought to myself "Hey wait a minute, I beleive in Jesus, I beleive he walked the earth, I beleive he is the Son of God, I beleive he died and rose again for me to be reconciled to God" I said "God I have this faith" he then said now read John 6:29 and look at the word 'Beleive' when I did I was gobsmacked. It's 4100 as above relating to 4102 as above.

My chains started to loosen. God said "Now trust me. I do not condemn you, I love you so so much"
This revelation came 27 years into my Christian life.

Oops I'm sorry I have digressed. Anyway it wasn't until I started really looking into scripture, looking for myself, rather than being told to beleive this I took a Barean root. So glad I did.

Sorry everyone just wanted to share with you what set me free.

I understand.
What I am talking about is that we wish to create (much as you did for yourself) a codified law when none exists.

It can be said that even two married people who one day decide to divorce over infidelity could be in error with their divorce... All dependant upon their hearts and intentions.
And that is the fluidity of the New Covenant...although fluidity isn't correct... It's more of a Living Covenant
There is no one set standard which can be codified.

There are a few things that can be known...but there aren't many.

I don't believe that any seek divorce. I think everyone wants to stay married who has a intimate relationship with the real God (and not one of their own making).

And that's one reason I went and learned what was really said and why it was said in the manner it was said. I wanted to know Who God really was. I wanted to know his personality...what made him tick, laugh, cry, get angry, and smile.

The God who found me wasn't who I was looking for either...He was way more gooder than that.

 

[reba]

The Word of God is the standard...

 

[evenifigoalone]

Yeah. I don't think even adultery necessarily means a relationship has to end....reconciliation might still be possible. I think it's a point that there's as a reference that tells you where the other's priorities are and how best to move forward from there.

 

[JohnDB]

I edited my post... Fat fingers suck.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am pretty sure we are seeing Romans 1 play out:

For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. (Romans 1:21-25 ESV)​

You are right in writing marriage is being redefined, but only for foolish and darkened hearts; not for the Church. Nations and peoples will rise and fall per God's purposes, the Church is the one institution ordained by God to be sustained regardless of the nations. You and I hold a greater citizenship than national citizenship and it has our first and highest allegiance. Unfortunately, the nation I love seems under judgement. God seems to be giving us up to the lusts of our hearts; his judgement on us is taking the form of him giving us what we desire. (I speak of "us" as in the U.S.A. specifically and western nations as a whole.)

I don't write this to inform you of things you don't know; I am sure you know this stuff. I am writing as a means encouraging us - including me - to re-set our own anchors in something more solid than presidents, supreme courts, legislators, culture, etc. If we have our anchor set in something impervious to the raging storm we find ourselves in, then we can fearlessly face it. (Of all people, we should be fearless of the storm!)

Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers take counsel together,
against the LORD and against his Anointed, saying,
“Let us burst their bonds apart
and cast away their cords from us.”
He who sits in the heavens laughs;
the Lord holds them in derision. (Psalm 2:1-4 ESV)​

Finally, this does not mean we disengage and passively let our nations go down the toilet. His redeemed children are called to pray for and participate in their culture. We should work hard and use every God-ordained avenue to have God's truth accepted by our culture. But in the end, our culture is not where our hope lies.

Thanks for giving me opportunity to rant a bit.

you could rant all you want to Hospes. You have a really nice way of saying things.
Of course I know all of the above, but still I feel so discouraged at times. It's great hearing it again - it is very encouraging. Love your last sentence.

W

 

[GodsGrace]

Wow. I was off line for a few days, and this thread exploded! My wife and I went to a fund-raising event for a hospital in Flint, Michigan over night. That's right. Flint. I'm hard core.

I'm speaking to the issue of continuous sin in the case of divorce and then remarriage. Whether or not it is, looking at it from another angle, what do we believe would please the Lord? Rather than looking at it from a negative perspective (are you sinning), look at it from a positive one. What can I do to honor Him who established that covenant in the first place. Knowing my spouse that God gave me is still alive and living, and the possibility exists to re-unite, does that play into the equation at all?

You've made a mistake and put an end to a marriage in conflict with scripture. There was no abuse, no adultery, both you and your ex are believers. You've asked for forgiveness and moved on in His grace. Your ambition is to get back on track with your life. What about restoration? If it would please the Lord to reconcile with your spouse that you walked away from, is this not something to pursue? Maybe your ex-spouse would not agree to try, but shouldn't you try in order to honor the Lord?

Just thinkin'...

Hi Mike
Yes. You missed a lot!
Re-uniting with a separated spouse would be a wonderful solution. The reason is that man recognizes divorce, but God does not. So, you'll always be married to your wife, unless there's a legitimate Christian reason for divorcing. Of course, death ends a marriage covenant too.

The best explanation for the above is 1 Corinthians 7:10-11 The next few verses are good too, regarding being married to an unbeliever.

Reconciliation would be honoring the Lord, to use your words.

W

 

[Malachi]

Just a quick question. What makes you think an abusive husband (or wife) would agree to speaking to a church family re his abuse problem? Some won't even go to a secular counselor.

Well, in this hypothetical scenario, there must be some selfish advantage to the abusive husband in order for him to continue in that relationship. So if the marriage is at risk, why would he not meet with a mediator/ counsellor? Indeed, the wife could tell him plainly that if he does not, she is walking out. Don't forget, that this is her church family and he must take that very seriously.

Plus, what am I missing here? Why would any wife WANT to stay with an abusive husband?

There could be two reasons: (1) the wife takes her marriage vows seriously, and believes that if this man would behave normally, the marriage could continue, or (2) some women may believe subconsciously that they deserve abuse, because they are fundamentally insecure. We don't need to psychoanalyze, but provide a spiritual solution.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, in this hypothetical scenario, there must be some selfish advantage to the abusive husband in order for him to continue in that relationship. So if the marriage is at risk, why would he not meet with a mediator/ counsellor? Indeed, the wife could tell him plainly that if he does not, she is walking out. Don't forget, that this is her church family and he must take that very seriously.

There could be two reasons: (1) the wife takes her marriage vows seriously, and believes that if this man would behave normally, the marriage could continue, or (2) some women may believe subconsciously that they deserve abuse, because they are fundamentally insecure. We don't need to psychoanalyze, but provide a spiritual solution.

I don't think so!
A man who abuses a woman is not a nice person. So, of course there's some unfathomable reason why he's abusing his own flesh and blood. He must hate himself so much that it spills over onto his mate.

So you think this guy is worried about saving his marriage??
You think he's going to lose sleep over the fact that his wife will walk out if he doesn't go to a mediator?
You think he takes his wife's church seriously?

I do agree with your second paragraph. Either of the two reasons could explain why a wife would stay in this situation. Apparently, the wife hasn't discovered yet that people don't change - or at least very rarely. With a really, really, hard heart, the chances of this husband becoming born again are almost nill. So she could give it a try for a while, but I'd hope she doesn't wait too long --

I'm good also with your second reason why the wife might try to stick it out.

But you want to provide a spiritual solution. If I've understood your scenario correctly, there can be NO spiritual solution to this problem. Mathew 5:23-24 and also Mathew 18:15-17 speaks to this - but it's two brothers in Christ that are having the difficulty and still Jesus says that if the one does not listen to the church, he is to be treated as a tax-collector. So, if church people have problems, you could imagine people that not only do not know the Lord, but act as our abusive husband acts.

Yes. I think it would please God for an abused wife to remove herself from the situation.

W

 

[evenifigoalone]

A lot of the people I have heard from were children or teenagers being abused by parents or an older sibling, but I have heard from some in relationships or marriages as well...I think it's more complicated than what is being represented here. Abusers want them to believe they have no option, they can never escape, they exist only to be used, they will always own them...that kind of thing. And it's pretty effective, considering abused don't leave in droves. And as OzSpen mentioned earlier in this thread, they will stalk their victims or harass them upon a chance meeting as well--they want the victim to feel as though they will never get away.

 

[evenifigoalone]

A lot of the people I have heard from were children or teenagers being abused by parents or an older sibling, but I have heard from some in relationships or marriages as well...I think it's more complicated than what is being represented here. Abusers want them to believe they have no option, they can never escape, they exist only to be used, they will always own them...that kind of thing. And it's pretty effective, considering abused don't leave in droves. And as OzSpen mentioned earlier in this thread, they will stalk their victims or harass them upon a chance meeting as well--they want the victim to feel as though they will never get away.

Here's a page that talks more about relationship violence and talks a bit about reasons some may have for not leaving: http://www.pandys.org/lundybancroft-transcript.html
edit: here's another: http://www.pandys.org/articles/maledomesticviolence.html

"Why don't you just leave?"

There are so many reasons why men may stay with an abusive partner - and everyone has their own combinations of reasons for not being able to walk out. Some of the reasons a man may stay in an abusive relationship are:

He feels afraid of retaliations if he should leave.
He feels financially insecure.
He loves his partner and believes they may change and stop being abusive.
He feels obligated to stay.
He doesn't want to lose access to his children - or he believes the children will be left in a vulnerable situation.
He has nowhere to go.
He believes he can / or should be able to "handle it".
He doesn't want others to know about the abuse - shame, embarrassment, uncertainty.
He does not want to leave his partner alone.
He blames himself for the abuse.
He may be afraid he will lose other family members and mutual friends if he leaves.
He may believe that "real men should be able to keep their wives under control" (Strauss, 1995).

 

[Malachi]

But you want to provide a spiritual solution.

One should not assume that they know the heart condition of someone else. That is a grievous error.

And ultimately all relationship issues are SPIRITUAL ISSUES. And in this case the husband needs to repent and be converted, and be born again. Repentance means turning away from his abusive behaviour, and any other sins. There are no "secular" remedies for spiritual issues (contrary to what the world believes).

 

[reba]

Malachi have you ever dealt with a beaten bruised terrified wife.. personally?

I am talking about letting her and kids into home to live.... Being there when the phone calls full of threats start... watching the kids cry... seeing the fear when a news paper hits the door...
listening when she talks of how he threatened the kids if she did not do what he pleased...
the list goes on and on

Yes he can be saved but she should be also... that may mean a 'safety house' The creeps are master liars ... they are sons of the father of all lies.. He leans over big smile and gives her a kiss and whispers in her ear you will pay later____ because a neighbor lady dropped by for coffee... She or the kids should not be abused until he decides to repent..

 

[reba]

One secular remedy that works for a given time is jail

 

[evenifigoalone]

Problem being salvation and repentance are choices the individual has to make willingly, that may never be made.
For myself, I'd rather risk being wrong on this topic than lead someone into a lifethreatening situation. That pretty much sums up my position, I guess. ....I feel like I'm coming off as way too opinionated here, don't mean to....though I do feel strongly on this.

On psychological and mental health topics--the mind has specific ways it works just as the body does. God designed both mind and body, we are simply learning more about this design. Learning how the mind works is helpful in aiding others, in providing counsel and healing. It's a tool, just as medical care is. I don't believe it's any more secular than hospitals are.

 

[GodsGrace]

One should not assume that they know the heart condition of someone else. That is a grievous error.

And ultimately all relationship issues are SPIRITUAL ISSUES. And in this case the husband needs to repent and be converted, and be born again. Repentance means turning away from his abusive behaviour, and any other sins. There are no "secular" remedies for spiritual issues (contrary to what the world believes).

Wait. I can't say that I know the heart condition of an abuser? Malachi, I usually agree with you! What's going on??

Not everything can be handled spiritually - although I know what you mean about everything being spiritual - too bad it doesn't mean much to an unbeliever!

Reba says it all in her post 256 and 257.

I'm not as good at condensing a thought.

W

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What I've been repeatedly talking about is the "Put Away" wives that most modern translations ignore and obfuscate. Your KJV doesn't. (Not that I prefer that translation as a whole but in this instance it tends to be more accurate)

If you insert that situation into the mix it reads differently and more accurately.

And you keep ignoring it.

I find the argument for 'put away' instead of 'divorce' to be the most irrelevant part of your argument. If I understand the argument correctly, you are saying it's okay to 'divorce' a person who is not a good follower of God (even though Paul says not to), but it's not okay to 'put away' a spouse by conveniently sending them away without an actual divorce because that is when their remarrying would be adultery (IOW, no divorce has occurred to set them free to do that).

If there's one thing I've learned from talking to others on-line....do not get your spiritual guidance and insights from Jews! The only exception are Spirit-filled Jews in the church, but even then, be careful. We love to exalt Jews as somehow being close to God and enlightened by virtue of them being Jews but the exact opposite is true. They do NOT have the Spirit of God, and in fact have rejected the Savior outright. Everything they say is tainted by Spiritless, legalistic worldliness. Do not listen to them. Centuries have proven that the Bible in it's plain unadulterated form is in fact the counsel of the Spirit to the church. There is little to no need to reach outside of the Bible for extra spiritual insight. The Jews have no valuable spiritual insights into the life and ways of a Savior they have rejected and outlawed in their own country.

Talk to the hand Rabbi so-and-so. You couldn't even recognize your own Savior!