Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Do you think that the abuser cares about that? What they may see is that the victim is Still their spouse and they have rights and they will have those rights no matter what anyone tells them.I don't think anyone including God thinks you owe a physically abusive spouse conjugal rights.
Do you think that abusers are rational people? Do you think they care about conditions that the victim gives them? Do you think they care about what a court tells them? They don't think like normal people think. You seems to think these are law abiding people. They are not, they are liars, con-artists, and some are just plain mentally unstable.It's as simple as, "look we can be together, but you have to stop punching me, that's the condition". That's totally rational.
Jethro, the victim can want that marriage to be healed with all their heart. But there comes a time when the abuser has proved that they are not going to change, they are what they are. Divorce says to them that the relationship is over, this is why it is such a dangerous time for the victim. If they live through the divorce process they have a good chance of continuing to live.If you're talking about the abused spouse who takes cover from the physical abuse I'd say that is your opinion. A spouse who really, really is interested in serving God and wants to reconcile with her abuser if they stop abusing them will go back to the relationship. Them not going back in such circumstances will just show they don't really want to reconcile. Think about it.
I agree, so Why get a legal separation?Again, if you are talking about the abused spouse who separates in the hope of reconciling, that is hardly true. Think about it. If the abused spouse is separating in the hope of one day reconciling how is that divorcing them in their heart? If they divorce them in their heart that is when they have divorced them in their heart. The act of separating itself is not what determines if the separating spouse is divorcing them in their heart.
I agree as far as if they have hopes of reconciliation.If that is what the Lord sees in someone's heart then that is what they are guilty of. In the case of a separation instead of a divorce in the hope of one day being reconciled, or wishing to not violate God's command to not divorce, the person who does that is hardly guilty of having divorced that person.
Well a legal separation does not do that and it's not even what a legal separation is for. Legal separations are about financial responsibilities. Restraining orders are to protect and they are broken all the time. If they weren't there would be no need for safe houses.I'm referring to common law. Thank God we have laws that help people keep God's command to not divorce and preserve their safety in the process.
Correct there is no Biblical legal separation.A 'legal' one? Not in the Bible that I know of. The point is, it's a practical way for the abused to stay married and not commit adultery (which is in the Bible) without foolishly enduring the unfair physical abuse of a spouse.
Separation cannot be the answer because separation cannot be forever.What do you mean 'don't have the answer'? Separation IS the answer.
Again, how does legal separation protect them? Go look up the law, there is absolutely nothing in a legal separation that protects them from abuse.I'm saying legal separation is also something an abused spouse can do in order to protect themselves--something that does not cause them to go off into adultery/divorce against God's will for them. And, obviously, is the preferred thing to do of the two.
That was not meant as a personal attack but a general observation. Scripture transcends all cultures and all ages of history, and is as fresh and applicable today as it was when Moses wrote the Torah or Paul wrote his epistles. The Word of God is a living Word, and a powerful Word (Heb 4:12,13) , and all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and therefore it is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness (2 Tim 3:16,17). It is a given that it must be rightly divided (or interpreted) comparing spiritual things with spiritual, and certainly by the teaching of the Holy Spirit.Correct me if I am wrong but are you saying I'm a 'naysayer?
Very good.For the SCOTUS to declare marriage is not as God created it, makes me think of this verse:
For a group of self-important creatures declaring anything contrary to the One who rules the universe and allows them their very existence has as much affect as them standing on the shore declaring the tide will no longer affect how far the waves will come.But you, O LORD, laugh at them; you hold all the nations in derision. (Psalm 59:8 ESV)
Or the people in the church who do wish to help are poorly informed and equipped on how to do so. I would say that secular counsel is better than bad counsel, for this topic.Speaking of abuse and abusers, there are remedies in Scripture which can be applied and could stop abuse (from either side), Ultimately all such issues are spiritual and need spiritual men to help put marriages back on track. Too often those who are in spiritual leadership in the churches fail to do what they have been called to do. They prefer to allow secular counsellors to do their jobs.
Reba,The Church does not have to live by the government standards.. We should be above them... The legal side marrage is some kind of a contract ... The Godly side of marriage is much deeper ... The is what we should be teaching our kids..
Hi QuestdrivenOr the people in the church who do wish to help are poorly informed and equipped on how to do so. I would say that secular counsel is better than bad counsel, for this topic.
I will mention, though, that marriages with abusers, the kind I was talking about, were never on the right foot to begin with. The abuser never had any good intentions and falsely led the other the entire way.
But please do elaborate.
Hi CEMarriage is a government-regulated contract. If the SCOTUS wants to decide that 2 people of the same sex can enter the contract, so be it. Churches don't have to recognize them. I do think that the SCOTUS decision may show that society as a whole has abandoned the idea of marriage as an institution, or at least...our new concept of marriage is different. Its a contract based on continuing, mutual affection that can be dissolved fairly easily.
I don't think the SCOTUS decision is a problem per se; I think the problem is that society has crumbled to the point that this has happened.
Let's assume that the husband and wife were both unsaved when they got married. Let's assume that the man did not really love the woman, but married for the wrong motives. Could it not be possible that the woman herself is partly to blame in allowing herself to be pulled into this union? Too many men and women who divorce and remarry appear to fall into the same traps over and over again, and find the same disappointing mates with the same character flaws. What does that tell you?I will mention, though, that marriages with abusers, the kind I was talking about, were never on the right foot to begin with. The abuser never had any good intentions and falsely led the other the entire way. But please do elaborate.
MalachiLet's assume that the husband and wife were both unsaved when they got married. Let's assume that the man did not really love the woman, but married for the wrong motives. Could it not be possible that the woman herself is partly to blame in allowing herself to be pulled into this union? Too many men and women who divorce and remarry appear to fall into the same traps over and over again, and find the same disappointing mates with the same character flaws. What does that tell you?
But let's assume that the wife gets saved, and begins living for the Lord, and joins a sound Bible church. And the husband persists in abusing her. Since she has a church family and (hopefully) a group of pastors/elders to turn to, there is no reason why she could not ask for a meeting with some of those shepherds (and with her husband), and bring the issue to the table.
If the abusive husband is told in no uncertain terms that he is sinning against his wife and the Lord, and the Gospel is shared with him, who knows if he would not get converted? But if there is prayer support for this wife throughout the church, and he fails to repent, who knows if God would not remove him from this earth, or deal with him so severely that he would know that God has taken note of his heart condition? This is simply to illustrate that when God is in the picture, divorce should not be an option.
I will grant that one's choices are a part of it, they shouldn't have married the person, there were probably multiple red flags they either missed or chose to ignore. But placing blame on them doesn't help them when what they need is support and help. So they should have known better--okay, but how does that get them out of the mess they are in? How does this knowledge (which they are beating themselves over the head with before anyone ever tells them so) change the situation they are in?Let's assume that the husband and wife were both unsaved when they got married. Let's assume that the man did not really love the woman, but married for the wrong motives. Could it not be possible that the woman herself is partly to blame in allowing herself to be pulled into this union? Too many men and women who divorce and remarry appear to fall into the same traps over and over again, and find the same disappointing mates with the same character flaws. What does that tell you?
But let's assume that the wife gets saved, and begins living for the Lord, and joins a sound Bible church. And the husband persists in abusing her. Since she has a church family and (hopefully) a group of pastors/elders to turn to, there is no reason why she could not ask for a meeting with some of those shepherds (and with her husband), and bring the issue to the table.
If the abusive husband is told in no uncertain terms that he is sinning against his wife and the Lord, and the Gospel is shared with him, who knows if he would not get converted? But if there is prayer support for this wife throughout the church, and he fails to repent, who knows if God would not remove him from this earth, or deal with him so severely that he would know that God has taken note of his heart condition? This is simply to illustrate that when God is in the picture, divorce should not be an option. Check the story of that worthless Nabal in Scripture, and how his wife was delivered from him.
Your last paragraph is very ironic indeed.as a recovering/former homogay, I'm kind of...amazed...at the level of dishonesty. Gay (male) relationships are not like heterosexual ones. the level of promiscuity, "open" relationships, all that...not like what you'd find in most of heterosexual USA. I don't know anything about lesbians though. Doesn't seem like their world would be that much different...probably (hopefully) less rampant promiscuity.
Anyway...I don't like the SCOTUS decision, but I think its sort of inevitable. Marriage as a whole has crumbled, community bonds have disintegrated; I read somewhere at 25% of people in the US dont't even have --1-- confidant. That's 1 in 4, and that's the way society is going.
Ramble ramble...I don't like the idea of gay dudes raising kids, but its happening now and it will continue to happen (probably become more common) in the future. I think that is an extremely unhealthy environment in which to live for anybody, especially a kid, but...this is the way secular society is going. Sadly, I get the sense that a lot of churches are feeling the pull of secular society and affirming that which The Bible says is unacceptable.
On a personal note, I grew up PCUSA. Now, I'm Born Again and pursuing celibacy, and they're affirming homosexual unions, appointing actively homosexual people to various positions, etc. Which means...sadly enough...just as I've begun to learn and apply Christian morality, the church I grew up in has ditched Scripture in favor of whatever their panel of experts has decided. Religion by committee. Awesome.
I'm done now.
I am pretty sure we are seeing Romans 1 play out:Very good.
But what about the last part I highlighted.
God rules the universe. Okay.
But it seems like "them" are standing on the shore declaring how far the waves will come.
It IS happening. Marriage IS being defined differently. Are you saying it's not? Or are you saying something will happen to change all this?
2Ch_7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.Reba,
You know I agree with you. But here's how I see it right now: There's a strong river flowing down strong - and it's washing everything away with it.
I used to have more hope -
how do I get it back??
W