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I misled us on the issue of divorce - wrong interpretation

The Church does not have to live by the government standards.. We should be above them... The legal side marrage is some kind of a contract ... The Godly side of marriage is much deeper ... The is what we should be teaching our kids..
 
I don't think anyone including God thinks you owe a physically abusive spouse conjugal rights.
Do you think that the abuser cares about that? What they may see is that the victim is Still their spouse and they have rights and they will have those rights no matter what anyone tells them.
It's as simple as, "look we can be together, but you have to stop punching me, that's the condition". That's totally rational.
Do you think that abusers are rational people? Do you think they care about conditions that the victim gives them? Do you think they care about what a court tells them? They don't think like normal people think. You seems to think these are law abiding people. They are not, they are liars, con-artists, and some are just plain mentally unstable.
If you're talking about the abused spouse who takes cover from the physical abuse I'd say that is your opinion. A spouse who really, really is interested in serving God and wants to reconcile with her abuser if they stop abusing them will go back to the relationship. Them not going back in such circumstances will just show they don't really want to reconcile. Think about it.
Jethro, the victim can want that marriage to be healed with all their heart. But there comes a time when the abuser has proved that they are not going to change, they are what they are. Divorce says to them that the relationship is over, this is why it is such a dangerous time for the victim. If they live through the divorce process they have a good chance of continuing to live.
Again, if you are talking about the abused spouse who separates in the hope of reconciling, that is hardly true. Think about it. If the abused spouse is separating in the hope of one day reconciling how is that divorcing them in their heart? If they divorce them in their heart that is when they have divorced them in their heart. The act of separating itself is not what determines if the separating spouse is divorcing them in their heart.
I agree, so Why get a legal separation?
If that is what the Lord sees in someone's heart then that is what they are guilty of. In the case of a separation instead of a divorce in the hope of one day being reconciled, or wishing to not violate God's command to not divorce, the person who does that is hardly guilty of having divorced that person.
I agree as far as if they have hopes of reconciliation.
I'm referring to common law. Thank God we have laws that help people keep God's command to not divorce and preserve their safety in the process.
Well a legal separation does not do that and it's not even what a legal separation is for. Legal separations are about financial responsibilities. Restraining orders are to protect and they are broken all the time. If they weren't there would be no need for safe houses.
A 'legal' one? Not in the Bible that I know of. The point is, it's a practical way for the abused to stay married and not commit adultery (which is in the Bible) without foolishly enduring the unfair physical abuse of a spouse.
Correct there is no Biblical legal separation.
In what way does a legal separation help the abused stay married without enduring physical abuse?
What do you mean 'don't have the answer'? Separation IS the answer.
Separation cannot be the answer because separation cannot be forever.
I'm saying legal separation is also something an abused spouse can do in order to protect themselves--something that does not cause them to go off into adultery/divorce against God's will for them. And, obviously, is the preferred thing to do of the two.
Again, how does legal separation protect them? Go look up the law, there is absolutely nothing in a legal separation that protects them from abuse.
Why do you think a divorce will cause them to go off into adultery? Someone who is separated is just as alone and sexually deprived as one who is divorced. So why would divorce cause them to commit adultery and legal separation would not?
 
I've heard a few stories of abusers before and...I don't get them at all. People like my biological father I can sorta get, they aren't totally bad people, they are just...unhealthy I guess. Whereas the abuse stories I hear just seem...so inhuman. Clearly they think very differently. I would link a video of someone talking about their motives and stuff that I happened to come across on youtube, but it's rather disturbing since abuse of a child is described.

And may I say that this discussion on abuse as it relates to divorce is much more reasonable than what I've seen elsewhere? Elsewhere...well, it honestly makes me angry the way that discussion was handled.
 
Correct me if I am wrong but are you saying I'm a 'naysayer?
That was not meant as a personal attack but a general observation. Scripture transcends all cultures and all ages of history, and is as fresh and applicable today as it was when Moses wrote the Torah or Paul wrote his epistles. The Word of God is a living Word, and a powerful Word (Heb 4:12,13) , and all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and therefore it is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness (2 Tim 3:16,17). It is a given that it must be rightly divided (or interpreted) comparing spiritual things with spiritual, and certainly by the teaching of the Holy Spirit.
 
Speaking of abuse and abusers, there are remedies in Scripture which can be applied and could stop abuse (from either side), Ultimately all such issues are spiritual and need spiritual men to help put marriages back on track. Too often those who are in spiritual leadership in the churches fail to do what they have been called to do. They prefer to allow secular counsellors to do their jobs.
 
For the SCOTUS to declare marriage is not as God created it, makes me think of this verse:
But you, O LORD, laugh at them; you hold all the nations in derision. (Psalm 59:8 ESV)​
For a group of self-important creatures declaring anything contrary to the One who rules the universe and allows them their very existence has as much affect as them standing on the shore declaring the tide will no longer affect how far the waves will come.
Very good.
But what about the last part I highlighted.
God rules the universe. Okay.
But it seems like "them" are standing on the shore declaring how far the waves will come.
It IS happening. Marriage IS being defined differently. Are you saying it's not? Or are you saying something will happen to change all this?

W
 
Speaking of abuse and abusers, there are remedies in Scripture which can be applied and could stop abuse (from either side), Ultimately all such issues are spiritual and need spiritual men to help put marriages back on track. Too often those who are in spiritual leadership in the churches fail to do what they have been called to do. They prefer to allow secular counsellors to do their jobs.
Or the people in the church who do wish to help are poorly informed and equipped on how to do so. I would say that secular counsel is better than bad counsel, for this topic.
I will mention, though, that marriages with abusers, the kind I was talking about, were never on the right foot to begin with. The abuser never had any good intentions and falsely led the other the entire way.

But please do elaborate.
 
The Church does not have to live by the government standards.. We should be above them... The legal side marrage is some kind of a contract ... The Godly side of marriage is much deeper ... The is what we should be teaching our kids..
Reba,
You know I agree with you. But here's how I see it right now: There's a strong river flowing down strong - and it's washing everything away with it.
I used to have more hope -

how do I get it back??

W
 
Marriage is a government-regulated contract. If the SCOTUS wants to decide that 2 people of the same sex can enter the contract, so be it. Churches don't have to recognize them. I do think that the SCOTUS decision may show that society as a whole has abandoned the idea of marriage as an institution, or at least...our new concept of marriage is different. Its a contract based on continuing, mutual affection that can be dissolved fairly easily.

I don't think the SCOTUS decision is a problem per se; I think the problem is that society has crumbled to the point that this has happened.
 
Or the people in the church who do wish to help are poorly informed and equipped on how to do so. I would say that secular counsel is better than bad counsel, for this topic.
I will mention, though, that marriages with abusers, the kind I was talking about, were never on the right foot to begin with. The abuser never had any good intentions and falsely led the other the entire way.

But please do elaborate.
Hi Questdriven
I'm keeping out of the abuse in marriage discussion because I simply feel that if a human being is being mistreated and he could escape from the situation, he should. Seems simple - I know it's not.

I did want to comment on your last sentence which I highlighted.

Getting back to marriage being a covenant. IF two people get married and are standing before God and using Him as a witness and one of them IS NOT SINCERE in his motives or declaration of marriage (promise to love, honor and obey) it makes the covenant of no effect. IOW there is NO covenant. The abused person can leave at any time even if there is no adultery. This could pertain to any lie being sworn to at the time of the ceremony. The lie nullifies the marriage.

W
 
Marriage is a government-regulated contract. If the SCOTUS wants to decide that 2 people of the same sex can enter the contract, so be it. Churches don't have to recognize them. I do think that the SCOTUS decision may show that society as a whole has abandoned the idea of marriage as an institution, or at least...our new concept of marriage is different. Its a contract based on continuing, mutual affection that can be dissolved fairly easily.

I don't think the SCOTUS decision is a problem per se; I think the problem is that society has crumbled to the point that this has happened.
Hi CE
I very much agree with your last paragraph. Our crumbled society has created the atmosphere that made the SCOTUS decision possible.
(I'm not sure what the Scotus decision is, not living in the US, hope it has to do with same sex marriage!)

However I can't agree that it's not a problem per se.
How do you feel about two guys raising a child??
What's next?? You know, the slippery slope idea. If you don't hold the flood waters back, we'll be washed away.
(and, as I said to Reba, I think it's already too late for holding them back).

W
 
I will mention, though, that marriages with abusers, the kind I was talking about, were never on the right foot to begin with. The abuser never had any good intentions and falsely led the other the entire way. But please do elaborate.
Let's assume that the husband and wife were both unsaved when they got married. Let's assume that the man did not really love the woman, but married for the wrong motives. Could it not be possible that the woman herself is partly to blame in allowing herself to be pulled into this union? Too many men and women who divorce and remarry appear to fall into the same traps over and over again, and find the same disappointing mates with the same character flaws. What does that tell you?

But let's assume that the wife gets saved, and begins living for the Lord, and joins a sound Bible church. And the husband persists in abusing her. Since she has a church family and (hopefully) a group of pastors/elders to turn to, there is no reason why she could not ask for a meeting with some of those shepherds (and with her husband), and bring the issue to the table.

If the abusive husband is told in no uncertain terms that he is sinning against his wife and the Lord, and the Gospel is shared with him, who knows if he would not get converted? But if there is prayer support for this wife throughout the church, and he fails to repent, who knows if God would not remove him from this earth, or deal with him so severely that he would know that God has taken note of his heart condition? This is simply to illustrate that when God is in the picture, divorce should not be an option. Check the story of that worthless Nabal in Scripture, and how his wife was delivered from him.
 
Let's assume that the husband and wife were both unsaved when they got married. Let's assume that the man did not really love the woman, but married for the wrong motives. Could it not be possible that the woman herself is partly to blame in allowing herself to be pulled into this union? Too many men and women who divorce and remarry appear to fall into the same traps over and over again, and find the same disappointing mates with the same character flaws. What does that tell you?

But let's assume that the wife gets saved, and begins living for the Lord, and joins a sound Bible church. And the husband persists in abusing her. Since she has a church family and (hopefully) a group of pastors/elders to turn to, there is no reason why she could not ask for a meeting with some of those shepherds (and with her husband), and bring the issue to the table.

If the abusive husband is told in no uncertain terms that he is sinning against his wife and the Lord, and the Gospel is shared with him, who knows if he would not get converted? But if there is prayer support for this wife throughout the church, and he fails to repent, who knows if God would not remove him from this earth, or deal with him so severely that he would know that God has taken note of his heart condition? This is simply to illustrate that when God is in the picture, divorce should not be an option.
Malachi
I've been trying to keep out of the abuse question since I have no experience with it at all. But I'm here on this earth and I see what happens.
Just a quick question. What makes you think an abusive husband (or wife) would agree to speaking to a church family re his abuse problem? Some won't even go to a secular counselor.
Plus, what am I missing here? Why would any wife WANT to stay with an abusive husband? She is not bound to stay with him since the wedding promises are being broken, as I explained in my post above 230.
Unfortunately God is NOT always in the picture. And even if He is, He did say to be as gentle as doves and as wise as serpents. Also, when Jesus says to turn the other cheek in Mathew, He didn't mean to just stand there and help the person slap you around.

W
P.S. Re falling into the same trap over and over, I'm sure we all know that this is a character flaw. Does it also tell something else??
 
Let's assume that the husband and wife were both unsaved when they got married. Let's assume that the man did not really love the woman, but married for the wrong motives. Could it not be possible that the woman herself is partly to blame in allowing herself to be pulled into this union? Too many men and women who divorce and remarry appear to fall into the same traps over and over again, and find the same disappointing mates with the same character flaws. What does that tell you?

But let's assume that the wife gets saved, and begins living for the Lord, and joins a sound Bible church. And the husband persists in abusing her. Since she has a church family and (hopefully) a group of pastors/elders to turn to, there is no reason why she could not ask for a meeting with some of those shepherds (and with her husband), and bring the issue to the table.

If the abusive husband is told in no uncertain terms that he is sinning against his wife and the Lord, and the Gospel is shared with him, who knows if he would not get converted? But if there is prayer support for this wife throughout the church, and he fails to repent, who knows if God would not remove him from this earth, or deal with him so severely that he would know that God has taken note of his heart condition? This is simply to illustrate that when God is in the picture, divorce should not be an option. Check the story of that worthless Nabal in Scripture, and how his wife was delivered from him.
I will grant that one's choices are a part of it, they shouldn't have married the person, there were probably multiple red flags they either missed or chose to ignore. But placing blame on them doesn't help them when what they need is support and help. So they should have known better--okay, but how does that get them out of the mess they are in? How does this knowledge (which they are beating themselves over the head with before anyone ever tells them so) change the situation they are in?
I've spoken to and heard from abuse victims--one of the hardest things for them is to not blame themselves. It eats them up. Their abuser made them feel as if they were deserving of the abuse they got, they are often trapped in a cycle of hurting themselves because they feel like they deserve it--by the way, this also includes relationships with people similar to their abuser. It can also mean self injuring, sexual promiscuity, substance abuse, etc.
Even though they may know logically that isn't true, and would not judge others nearly as harshly as they judge themselves, emotionally they have been conditioned to believe it was all their fault and it takes a long time before they truly stop believing it.

You seem to be working on what if's, and often people simply do not change--because God gives humankind the free will to make bad, selfish choices. People have to want to change before they can change.
Making the goal to reconcile the marriage at the expense of the victim's safety does far more harm than good. It's hard not to feel strongly on this topic when people's very lives are often at stake--at best it leaves them very hurt in ways that stick with them for life or the better part of their lives. That's a lot to be banked on believing that God will deal with the abuser and hoping the abuser will listen and fully repent.
People who abuse like this don't think like we do--they lied to get their spouse, and they will lie to keep this spouse around for them to control and manipulate. And giving them the ability to be able to do this is certainly not being wise or responsible with the means God has given us to help others. I don't believe anyone is beyond salvation, but as long as they believe they will have the option to return to and manipulate their victim, they are not likely to truly repent. They are experts at this game.

I don't know your background or the extent of your knowledge, and I know you mean well, but it doesn't sound to me like you know much about this topic. I don't claim to be an expert either, though. I've just been hearing from abuse survivors, and doing a little reading up on the effects of abuse.
That said, I don't think all who abuse are necessarily the particular kind I am describing...for personal reasons...let's just say a thing happened when I was a small child and the person responsible doesn't hold much similarity to the kind of people I've been talking about. I don't know much about it, though, and abuse and what motivates it strikes me as a complex and complicated topic.

Anyway, because of the stakes involved I believe we as a church need to inform ourselves on this topic, if we're going to endeavor to reach out and help those in need and hurting. Good intentions and waiting on God to do all the work...well, we are called to take action, that is our job. It is my experience that the majority of the time God doesn't insta-fix situations, we need to do our part as the body of Christ to be His hands and feet.

(this post went through like 100 edits holy pickles, like after a while of thinking on and off I suddenly had a ton to add)
 
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as a recovering/former homogay, I'm kind of...amazed...at the level of dishonesty. Gay (male) relationships are not like heterosexual ones. the level of promiscuity, "open" relationships, all that...not like what you'd find in most of heterosexual USA. I don't know anything about lesbians though. Doesn't seem like their world would be that much different...probably (hopefully) less rampant promiscuity.

Anyway...I don't like the SCOTUS decision, but I think its sort of inevitable. Marriage as a whole has crumbled, community bonds have disintegrated; I read somewhere at 25% of people in the US dont't even have --1-- confidant. That's 1 in 4, and that's the way society is going.

Ramble ramble...I don't like the idea of gay dudes raising kids, but its happening now and it will continue to happen (probably become more common) in the future. I think that is an extremely unhealthy environment in which to live for anybody, especially a kid, but...this is the way secular society is going. Sadly, I get the sense that a lot of churches are feeling the pull of secular society and affirming that which The Bible says is unacceptable.

On a personal note, I grew up PCUSA. Now, I'm Born Again and pursuing celibacy, and they're affirming homosexual unions, appointing actively homosexual people to various positions, etc. Which means...sadly enough...just as I've begun to learn and apply Christian morality, the church I grew up in has ditched Scripture in favor of whatever their panel of experts has decided. Religion by committee. Awesome.

I'm done now.
 
as a recovering/former homogay, I'm kind of...amazed...at the level of dishonesty. Gay (male) relationships are not like heterosexual ones. the level of promiscuity, "open" relationships, all that...not like what you'd find in most of heterosexual USA. I don't know anything about lesbians though. Doesn't seem like their world would be that much different...probably (hopefully) less rampant promiscuity.

Anyway...I don't like the SCOTUS decision, but I think its sort of inevitable. Marriage as a whole has crumbled, community bonds have disintegrated; I read somewhere at 25% of people in the US dont't even have --1-- confidant. That's 1 in 4, and that's the way society is going.

Ramble ramble...I don't like the idea of gay dudes raising kids, but its happening now and it will continue to happen (probably become more common) in the future. I think that is an extremely unhealthy environment in which to live for anybody, especially a kid, but...this is the way secular society is going. Sadly, I get the sense that a lot of churches are feeling the pull of secular society and affirming that which The Bible says is unacceptable.

On a personal note, I grew up PCUSA. Now, I'm Born Again and pursuing celibacy, and they're affirming homosexual unions, appointing actively homosexual people to various positions, etc. Which means...sadly enough...just as I've begun to learn and apply Christian morality, the church I grew up in has ditched Scripture in favor of whatever their panel of experts has decided. Religion by committee. Awesome.

I'm done now.
Your last paragraph is very ironic indeed.
Instead of the church going into the world,
The world is going into the church.
Just because you have certain tendencies doesn't mean you can't be a conservative person - which I think you are. Good sense is good sense, no matter what the tendencies are. I'm referring to two people of the same sex raising a child. This is not what God had in mind, that's for sure.

Love you CE
:hug

W
 
Here's a video I mentioned in a previous post. I wasn't going to post it because of the content that is discussed, but this is the sort of person I've been talking about:
Trigger warning for abuse, including sexual
 
Very good.
But what about the last part I highlighted.
God rules the universe. Okay.
But it seems like "them" are standing on the shore declaring how far the waves will come.
It IS happening. Marriage IS being defined differently. Are you saying it's not? Or are you saying something will happen to change all this?
I am pretty sure we are seeing Romans 1 play out:
For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. (Romans 1:21-25 ESV)​
You are right in writing marriage is being redefined, but only for foolish and darkened hearts; not for the Church. Nations and peoples will rise and fall per God's purposes, the Church is the one institution ordained by God to be sustained regardless of the nations. You and I hold a greater citizenship than national citizenship and it has our first and highest allegiance. Unfortunately, the nation I love seems under judgement. God seems to be giving us up to the lusts of our hearts; his judgement on us is taking the form of him giving us what we desire. (I speak of "us" as in the U.S.A. specifically and western nations as a whole.)

I don't write this to inform you of things you don't know; I am sure you know this stuff. I am writing as a means encouraging us - including me - to re-set our own anchors in something more solid than presidents, supreme courts, legislators, culture, etc. If we have our anchor set in something impervious to the raging storm we find ourselves in, then we can fearlessly face it. (Of all people, we should be fearless of the storm!)
Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers take counsel together,
against the LORD and against his Anointed, saying,
“Let us burst their bonds apart
and cast away their cords from us.”
He who sits in the heavens laughs;
the Lord holds them in derision. (Psalm 2:1-4 ESV)​

Finally, this does not mean we disengage and passively let our nations go down the toilet. His redeemed children are called to pray for and participate in their culture. We should work hard and use every God-ordained avenue to have God's truth accepted by our culture. But in the end, our culture is not where our hope lies.

Thanks for giving me opportunity to rant a bit. :)
 
Reba,
You know I agree with you. But here's how I see it right now: There's a strong river flowing down strong - and it's washing everything away with it.
I used to have more hope -

how do I get it back??

W
2Ch_7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
 
Wow. I was off line for a few days, and this thread exploded! My wife and I went to a fund-raising event for a hospital in Flint, Michigan over night. That's right. Flint. I'm hard core. :biggrin2

I'm speaking to the issue of continuous sin in the case of divorce and then remarriage. Whether or not it is, looking at it from another angle, what do we believe would please the Lord? Rather than looking at it from a negative perspective (are you sinning), look at it from a positive one. What can I do to honor Him who established that covenant in the first place. Knowing my spouse that God gave me is still alive and living, and the possibility exists to re-unite, does that play into the equation at all?

You've made a mistake and put an end to a marriage in conflict with scripture. There was no abuse, no adultery, both you and your ex are believers. You've asked for forgiveness and moved on in His grace. Your ambition is to get back on track with your life. What about restoration? If it would please the Lord to reconcile with your spouse that you walked away from, is this not something to pursue? Maybe your ex-spouse would not agree to try, but shouldn't you try in order to honor the Lord?

Just thinkin'...
 
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