" I never knew you " --- Literal or Figurative

[francisdesales]

francis:



You have given speculation, The scripture specifically says who Christ died for, The Sheep Jn 10:15 and the Church eph 5:25

AGAIN, learn to read.

It says NOTHING about Jesus dying ONLY FOR THE ELECT. The word "only" is nowhere found, nor is it even implied. Language does not necessitate the use of "only" in either case. That is you adding to the Word of God your own bogus opinions that CONTRADICT other Scriptures!!!

To give an example, Obama can say he is head of the government of all people in Delaware. Does that mean he is ONLY the head of government in the state of Delaware? Is he also not the president of the United States, each and every one of them as a group? When one speaks about a particular group, it is not necessary to presume that one is REJECTING other groups!!!

Please. Use your head. Christ died for the sin of the world. The elect are the ones who take advantage of the offering of freely given redemption. But it IS offered to all men. God's grace falls on both the good and evil. Unfortunately for the evil, they reject this grace.

 

[savedbygrace57]

That's just like me saying how could they then cast out demons in Christ name...


watch the way you talk to me...i'm warning you:fullauto

That does not matter, He never loved them nor died for them.

 

[savedbygrace57]

francis:

It says NOTHING about Jesus dying ONLY FOR THE ELECT.

It says nothing about Christ not dying only for the elect ! and:

You have given speculation, The scripture specifically says who Christ died for, The Sheep Jn 10:15 and the Church eph 5:25 which are the elect.

 

[savedbygrace57]

francis:

I did several times already. Maybe you should learn to read.

The Lamb of God takes away the Sin of the WORLD.

This does not say That Christ did not die only for the elect !

 

[francisdesales]

francis:



It says nothing about Christ not dying only for the elect ! and:

You have given speculation, The scripture specifically says who Christ died for, The Sheep Jn 10:15 and the Church eph 5:25 which are the elect.

Please explain to me what part of

"take away the sin of the world"

you don't get! :p:p:p.

Pretty simple to those who listen to God's Word. It's only difficult for those who invent doctrines of men...

 

[savedbygrace57]

Please explain to me what part of

"take away the sin of the world"

you don't get! :p:p:p.

Pretty simple to those who listen to God's Word. It's only difficult for those who invent doctrines of men...

This does not say That Christ did not die only for the elect !

All the elect together is a world.

One of the definitions of world kosmos:

any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

That, plus the plain Truth that everyone without exception in the world has not had their sins taken away, shows your interpration of Jn 1 29 erronous.

Its only the elect whose sins have been taken away by Christ sacrifice.

rom 8:


33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us [Gods elect].

So as stated, Jn 1 29 states nothing about not being for Gods elect only !

 

[smaller]

Did I just see a claim of sinlessness?

lol

 

[francisdesales]

This does not say That Christ did not die only for the elect !

All the elect together is a world.

One of the definitions of world kosmos:

any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

That, plus the plain Truth that everyone without exception in the world has not had their sins taken away, shows your interpration of Jn 1 29 erronous.

The elect is not "a world"...

As usual, your logic is erroneous. Nor have you provided even ONE verse that tells us that Christ died only for the elect. Yet again, you have a problem with language in your attempt to appropriate and twist a verse to serve your purpose. Romans 8:33 says nothing about whom Christ died for. It says God will judge and justify His elect!!! Jeez, read what is there...


Redemption is offered to all men. Paul makes that perfectly clear. ALL men, whether Greek or Jew. Based upon what? Which act enabled a man's sin to be forgiven? Something that happened 2000 years ago, correct? Every person who ever existed has received the potential to receive the forgiveness of sins based upon THAT ONE ACT. Thus, Christ's death is sufficient enough to remove each and every sin, even a sin committed centuries later. The sin of the ENTIRE WORLD is not more powerful than Christ's work, despite your idea to the contrary. Christ's work is MORE powerful than Adam's sin.

Yes, only the elect's sins have been forgiven, since forgiveness of sin requires repentance (which you conveniently forget or are just ignorant) - Christ's act on the cross requires a condition BEFORE it is applied. THIS IS TRUE EVEN FOR THE ELECT! Sin remains UNTIL that act of repentance... However, the very fact that it IS conditional tells us that this ACT is available for ALL men and awaits that conditional act from man - which is repentance from the individual.

Christ died for all men - but because salvation is conditional as per God's Will, the Act of Christ on the cross is not effective for all men, only for those who call upon Christ and beg for forgiveness of sin.

 

[smaller]

The elect is not "a world"...

As usual, your logic is erroneous.

Redemption is offered to all men. Paul makes that perfectly clear. ALL men, whether Greek or Jew. Based upon what? Which act enabled a man's sin to be forgiven? Something that happened 2000 years ago, correct? Every person who ever existed has received the potential to receive the forgiveness of sins based upon THAT ONE ACT. Thus, Christ's death is sufficient enough to remove each and every sin, even a sin committed centuries later. The sin of the ENTIRE WORLD is not more powerful than Christ's work, despite your idea to the contrary. Christ's work is MORE powerful than Adam's sin.

Yes, only the elect's sins have been forgiven, since forgiveness of sin requires repentance (which you conveniently forget or are just ignorant) - Christ's act on the cross requires a condition BEFORE it is applied. However, the very fact that it IS conditional tells us that this ACT is available for ALL men and awaits that conditional act from man - which is repentance from the individual.

Christ died for all men - but because salvation is conditional as per God's Will, the Act of Christ on the cross is not effective for all men, only for those who call upon Christ and beg for forgiveness of sin.

Your 'groups' understanding in this matter has one big Mack Truck flaw FD, that being, UNbelief is a sin.

IF you want to count the 'sin of unbelief' against anyone, you now have A SIN EXCEPTION that was NOT taken away at the cross, therefore not ALL SIN was therein 'taken away.'

John 16:
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Unbelief IS a sin.

Now, was THAT SIN taken away at the cross?

IF not and one MUST believe to 'effectuate' the atonement, you factually have an issue with ALL SIN being universally atoned for by the death of Jesus at the cross because you prove you STILL count the sin of unbelief as NOT being taken away.

s

 

[francisdesales]

Your 'groups' understanding in this matter has one big Mack Truck flaw FD, that being, UNbelief is a sin.

Unbelief = rejection, not ignorance.

Sin is taken away conditionally, and potentially for each and every person. Thus, for YOUR sin to be removed (despite the Act on the Cross happening in time 2000 years ago) requires an act of belief on your part. God "awaits" your action, although His Act has been completed. Rejection is indeed the sin of refusing to accept the salvation offered.

Sin was not "taken away" at the moment of the cross, because you weren't even born yet...

 

[smaller]

Unbelief = rejection, not ignorance.

Sin is taken away conditionally, and potentially for each and every person.

The sin of UNbelief is A SIN. Your claim is that ALL SIN was universally taken away at the cross.

You can NOT logically take the SIN of UNBELIEF away from being SIN because IT IS.

You put ALL SIN except the SIN of unbelief under the auspices of the Cross and you leave THAT SIN out as A CONDITION.

Therefore you do NOT hold to 'universal atonement' pertaining to SIN as you have A GLARING OPEN EXCEPTION.

Thus, for YOUR sin to be removed (despite the Act on the Cross happening in time 2000 years ago) requires an act of belief on your part. God "awaits" your action, although His Act has been completed. Rejection is indeed the sin of refusing to accept the salvation offered.

Thank you for demonstrating that NOT all sin was universally taken away.

Sin was not "taken away" at the moment of the cross, because you weren't even born yet...

Quite a different subject.

Romans 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

We were all once enemies.

Christ died long before we were enemies and His Sacrifice WAS then, one time, sufficient for ALL.

You have PLUCKED a SIN from off the CROSS and PINNED it upon ALL who do not believe.

Universal atonement for SIN in your own equation is NOT universal.

s

 

[Alabaster]

As a latecomer, in answer to the OP, the meaning of "I never knew you" is referring to intimacy in relationship. True believers have an intimate relationship with Jesus, whereas those who are nominal do not.

Nominal, carnal believers may spout good doctrine, and even use the name of Jesus in casting out the enemy, but until one comes into a walking, talking relationship with Jesus, as a doer rather than a hearer, abiding in Christ, then Jesus cannot really 'know' him.

 

[francisdesales]

The sin of UNbelief is A SIN. Your claim is that ALL SIN was universally taken away at the cross.

You can NOT logically take the SIN of UNBELIEF away from being SIN because IT IS.

Nor do I attempt to. Perhaps you should revisit my post and read it. Or I can try to explain it yet again...

The idea is that Christ's work takes away sin. Any and all sin. However, before that happens, repentance must take place. Now, if Christ's work on the cross took away every sin unconditionally, to include unbelief, than there is a lot of wasted words about "repent and believe" and so forth in Scriptures. Before you were so-called "saved", you were not freed of sin, were you... However, Christ's work was already accomplished.

Thus, with some logic, you should be able to figure out that Christ's work takes away sin - any and all sin - ONLY AFTER MAN REPENTS. ANY MAN! The Lamb of God takes away the sin of mankind, mankind as an entity can now be in a relationship with God. Christ is our pioneer, the second Adam. Individually, sin is removed when a man, upon an act of faith and repentance, converts.

To include you.

Thus, Christ's death WAS for the sin of the world. Each and every man has access to the work of the cross awaiting repentance, being that Christ was a man and we are men. As the Mediator, each man has access to that gift. As such, Christ died for all men, and the sin of the world can be taken away from ANYONE once a man repents. For it is ONLY AFTER that repentance is sin removed. Thus, your confusion.

You put ALL SIN except the SIN of unbelief under the auspices of the Cross and you leave THAT SIN out as A CONDITION.

Therefore you do NOT hold to 'universal atonement' pertaining to SIN as you have A GLARING OPEN EXCEPTION.


Thank you for demonstrating that NOT all sin was universally taken away.

I hope you enjoyed your big fat red herring for supper. Sorry to burst your pride bubble, but the argument you tear down is not mine. As before, you argue with yourself again...

 

[smaller]

Nor do I attempt to. Perhaps you should revisit my post and read it. Or I can try to explain it yet again...

The idea is that Christ's work takes away sin. Any and all sin. However,

And any simpleton can see your however and say then ANY and ALL is NOT ANY and ALL with the big HOWEVER squatting in the ANY and ALL.

Your claim is NOT therefore TRUE.

It's ANY and ALL with ONE MAJOR SIN exception.

before that happens, repentance must take place.

Many try to eliminate the death of Christ for SIN.

You have HELD the sin of UNbelief OFF the cross of payment. Of this there is no doubt.

Now, if Christ's work on the cross took away every sin unconditionally, to include unbelief,

Don't try and double talk this matter.

Your position has BLOCKED that particular sin from being 'taken away' and in that made the entirety of the cross ELIMINATED by THAT SIN.

What was 'taken away' was ATTRIBUTION of SIN from mankind.

Obviously SIN still remains in BELIEVER and UNbeliever.

than there is a lot of wasted words about "repent and believe" and so forth in Scriptures. Before you were so-called "saved", you were not freed of sin, were you... However, Christ's work was already accomplished.

I won't entertain 'believers' exalting SINLESS flesh. That is NOT a promise of the Gospel in the light of our current facts, that being planted in corruption, weakness, DISHONOUR and a natural body.

Your group may very well market temporary salve of eliminations. I don't buy that angle either because IT'S NOT TRUE.

Thus, with some logic, you should be able to figure out that Christ's work takes away sin - any and all sin - ONLY AFTER MAN REPENTS.

The UNrepentant remain in the sin of UNbelief. You can also blame the sin of unbelief for non-repentence. The sin of unbelief is NOT man-centric. There is the factual matter of such MINDS being BLINDED by the 'god of this world.'

Your claim is that mankind are ALONE AND FREE to make an affirmative decision. I don't buy that because it again is NOT TRUE.

ANY MAN! The Lamb of God takes away the sin of mankind,

No, you have CLEARLY not placed the VERY REAL SIN of UNbelief as SETTLED. That SIN remains as UNPAID in your booking method and in that NO SIN was taken away FOR SUCH.

Of course Jesus does NOT count like you. Jesus eliminated your angle BEFORE the Cross:

John 12:47
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not

One might even SEE that a man BLINDED IN MIND by 'the god of this world' really may have ZERO clue about any of these matters and CAN NOT because of THE BLINDER.

Yet you claim FREE, FREE upon that BLIND MAN, even when the 'god of this world' is SQUATTING upon their MINDS.

I say you SEEK to blame the BLIND man and IGNORE the 'god of this world' upon THEIR MINDS by 'your doctrines.'

mankind as an entity can now be in a relationship with God.

What gave you claim to ELIMINATE Gods WILL working in the MIND of ANY man?

You think HE HAS NO CARE for THEM? NO active working?

I say you again have eliminated not only the WILL of the DEVIL upon that mans mind, but the WILL of God in the behalf of ALL such blinded ones.

Christ is our pioneer, the second Adam. Individually, sin is removed when a man, upon an act of faith and repentance, converts.

The ever rotating sin removal processes of mens doctrines bear no reality to either text or life.

The OFFERING was ONE TIME and TOTAL in SUFFICIENCY for non-attribution of SIN towards ALL mankind. ALL sin.

You however still count the SIN OF UNBELIEF against the unbeliever.

Your reality is that NO SIN was taken away at the cross. It is ONLY taken away in 'repentance.'

All the while you claim UNIVERSAL AND ALL sin was taken away at the cross, in REALITY none of that sin was taken away in YOUR BOOK until REPENTENCE.

You have the exact OPPOSITE of what you claim to have. It is ONLY universal and unlimited to THOSE WHO REPENT.

Otherwise, Worthless CROSS, Worthless DEATH, Meant exactly NOTHING and ZERO to THE unbeliever.

You can't GET any further from UNIVERSAL ATONEMENT.

Thus, Christ's death WAS for the sin of the world.

No, it meant exactly ZERO for any unrepentent and did NOTHING for them.

The CROSS in your idiom is entirely MEANINGLESS unless someone BELIEVES that it happened and is therefore effective.

Otherwise by your own words IT'S NOT worth ONE WHIT to them.

Each and every man has access to the work of the cross awaiting repentance, being that Christ was a man and we are men.

Access? How is a man blinded by the god of this world supposed to find ACCESS? How is such a man FREE? Certainly they are NOT FREE from their BLINDER are they?

Yet you want to make THAT CLAIM as well. Not only LOCKING the door, but IGNORING their GATEKEEPER of DARKNESS who STANDS IN THEIR WAY.

One may as well go kick a litter of puppies.

As the Mediator, each man has access to that gift. As such, Christ died for all men, and the sin of the world can be taken away from ANYONE once a man repents. For it is ONLY AFTER that repentance is sin removed. Thus, your confusion.

Thus MY confusion?

A claim of UNLIMITED ATONEMENT when there is ZERO? How is THAT unlimited atonement. You just have another set of hurdles placed before BLINDMEN to ELIMINATE the CROSS for ALL THEIR SINS and made that UNLIMITED ATONEMENT LIMITED ENTIRELY for such.

I hope you enjoyed your big fat red herring for supper. Sorry to burst your pride bubble, but the argument you tear down is not mine. As before, you argue with yourself again...

Uh, the big red herring just slipped into your UNLIMITED ATONEMENT which same turned it to ZERO atonement for ALL blinded unbelievers.

Nice yob there buddy. Give yerself A BIG FAT PAT on the back.

s

 

[savedbygrace57]

francis:

The elect is not "a world"...

Says who ? You have a scripture that says that ?

One of the definitions of world kosmos:

any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

 

[mlqurgw]

Nor do I attempt to. Perhaps you should revisit my post and read it. Or I can try to explain it yet again...

The idea is that Christ's work takes away sin. Any and all sin. However, before that happens, repentance must take place. Now, if Christ's work on the cross took away every sin unconditionally, to include unbelief, than there is a lot of wasted words about "repent and believe" and so forth in Scriptures. Before you were so-called "saved", you were not freed of sin, were you... However, Christ's work was already accomplished.

Thus, with some logic, you should be able to figure out that Christ's work takes away sin - any and all sin - ONLY AFTER MAN REPENTS. ANY MAN! The Lamb of God takes away the sin of mankind, mankind as an entity can now be in a relationship with God. Christ is our pioneer, the second Adam. Individually, sin is removed when a man, upon an act of faith and repentance, converts.

To include you.

Thus, Christ's death WAS for the sin of the world. Each and every man has access to the work of the cross awaiting repentance, being that Christ was a man and we are men. As the Mediator, each man has access to that gift. As such, Christ died for all men, and the sin of the world can be taken away from ANYONE once a man repents. For it is ONLY AFTER that repentance is sin removed. Thus, your confusion.




I hope you enjoyed your big fat red herring for supper. Sorry to burst your pride bubble, but the argument you tear down is not mine. As before, you argue with yourself again...

The only logical conclusion to such a view is that man actually saves himself with God's help.

 

[francisdesales]

francis:



Says who ? You have a scripture that says that ?

One of the definitions of world kosmos:

any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

You have Scriptures to prove otherwise? I am still awaiting that one verse that tells me Christ died only for the elect. All you have done is try to throw confusion on my explanation without providing your own proofs and evidence that supports your point. The Bible tells us about people who try to divide the Body...

Until you post something of substance that tells me that Christ died only for the elect, I have nothing further to add. Christ's death was sufficient for each and every man to be freed from sin. You do not give Christ's work its just due.

 

[francisdesales]

The only logical conclusion to such a view is that man actually saves himself with God's help.

No, God saves man only upon man's help. This "turning to God" is in effect a gift from God, since we cannot do it alone - but we certainly do contribute.

Otherwise, there would be no requirement for man to repent of his sin...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

And any simpleton can see your however and say then ANY and ALL is NOT ANY and ALL with the big HOWEVER squatting in the ANY and ALL...

Nice yob there buddy. Give yerself A BIG FAT PAT on the back.

s

I can see nothing has changed with the way you carry on conversations.

Thanks but no thanks. I prefer to have a two way conversation where the one guy does not feel it is necessary to attempt to belittle me.

 

[Elijah674]

Re: " I never knew you " --- Literal or Figurative

Originally Posted by mlqurgw
The only logical conclusion to such a view is that man actually saves himself with God's help.



No, God saves man only upon man's help. This "turning to God" is in effect a gift from God, since we cannot do it alone - but we certainly do contribute.

Otherwise, there would be no requirement for man to repent of his sin...

Regards

It takes very little of ones 'brain' to understand this above. Your post is so right! And Small's postings of personal attacks? That reminds me of one of two powers? Eph. 6:12
--Elijah


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