I WAS WRONG.....

[francisdesales]

I agree that God gives us the will and desire to love or to have faith. He gives us the will or desire to love the same way my Dad gave me the will and the desire to do my chores. With the promise of rewards and the threat of punishment. My Dad gave me faith in his word by always making good on his promises or threats. That is how I understand these expressions. In real and everyday life situations, not some spiritual metaphysical abstract. Do you see where I’m coming from here?

... He has given me faith to believe that he is able to heal, not by a spiritual injection of faith but by a tangible display of power.

Yes, I understand and agree with what you are saying. We learn to trust God, to have faith in Him through our experience of Him. But according to the Bible, God places within us the desire to please Him and the desire to do His will - a desire that we CAN reject. As we continue to say "yes" to God's will, we grow in this virtue of faith and love. While theologians try to explain such matters, practically speaking, it can be difficult because we are dealing with human experiences, which are subjective. However, when we read the lives of the saints who have already experienced such actions and aids from God, we come to understand better how God is working in our lives. We know God pre-conceptually, not directly. Thus, there is going to be some grey areas when we discuss God.

My point was that faith or love does not come from ourselves. If it did, we wouldn't need God working in our lives - we could save ourselves by reading a book or trying harder to love others. This desire is placed in us by God - a desire we can reject. Thus, it is BOTH of us that brings about a good event.

Regards

 

[Fnerb]

You define "salvation" differently than I do. I define salvation as not ONLY a past event, but also an ongoing event. With that in mind, can you now understand why love is important in salvation?

Love is a very important part of salvation, just as works are a result of it. Love was what brought Jesus to the cross. Love (or more specifically) grace, is what will lead us to heaven.

Perhaps I should rephase. God doesn't demand perfection for us to be saved... We are saved by grace. We are loved despite our imperfection. We don't have to earn God's love by being perfect. Nor do we have to be perfect to enter heaven. God demands our obedience and love, but not perfect obedience and love.

Jesus came because man ALONE could not redeem himself.

He lived a perfect life of obedience to the Father's will.

I should have assumed that is what you meant, but I just wanted to be clear. :wink: (Didn't mean to sound all up in arms about it or anything ... my appolgize if I did)

What about Romans 11? I have no problems with that. Of course we are saved by grace, not by our OWN works. However, our works IN CHRIST are NOT our OWN works. They are OUR works (mine and Christ). Since we can do nothing good without Christ, our loving works cannot be our own works, but God and my works. This is grace, because my own works alone do not save me. I am justified by good deeds throughout my life (Romans 2), but these deeds are not mine alone, so I cannot boast.

Regards

And see, I see our Justification taking place on the cross. I was reading an essay by a gentlman a professor from Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary regarding Justification. In it, he writes:

----
"Justify" is a word with Roman (Latin) roots which is easily understood in a Latin (Roman) Catholic sense. In literal translation it means "make just" or "make righteous." It suggests a process of change and improvement.

Justificare is the Latin Bible's rendering of the Greek dikaioun. And that verb does not mean "make just" or "make righteous." In every New Testiment instance, as well as in the Old Testament's corresponding hitzdik, the word means to "declare just or rightous," "acquit."
----

For me it would seem that my very own salvation is nothing more than God using my entire being as the means for bringing it about.

As you ahve said Fran, it is all to His credit...

 

[Jay T]

If that's the case, then there are Many misinformed people out there.

You are correct....as the Bible says that satan has capture the vast majority of the Christian world (2 Corinthians 11:13-15, ect....ect.)

The gospel message is one of trust in God's ability and willingness to save you from your sins through his work through his only begotten Son Jesus the Christ. Have trust in God, and you are saved.

Trust in Jesus Christ is a daily experience...as daily, a Christian is tested to see if they really will allow Jesus to control their lives, in every little detail.
From what you eat, to the very words you speak in every day conversations.

Merely believe that God exists or merely believe that Christ was crucified, and you are not saved.

The difference between satan's belief and the Christians'....is whether a Christian keeps the commandments of God or not.....
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[francisdesales]

"Justify" is a word with Roman (Latin) roots which is easily understood in a Latin (Roman) Catholic sense. In literal translation it means "make just" or "make righteous." It suggests a process of change and improvement.

Justificare is the Latin Bible's rendering of the Greek dikaioun. And that verb does not mean "make just" or "make righteous." In every New Testiment instance, as well as in the Old Testament's corresponding hitzdik, the word means to "declare just or rightous," "acquit."
----

I am not sure about this distinction the author makes. How is "to make just" any different then to "declare just" - in reference to time? How does this difference state that the former is ongoing while the latter is done once in the past? Not sure about that one.

On the other hand, the author does appear to realize the difference between imputed and infused justification. My question is "Why doesn't God MAKE us righteous, merely 'declaring' us so?" Is God's Word not able to change us internally?

If sin has cast such an effect on our souls, cannot God correct this by MAKING us just during the course of our lives?

This is my main disagreement with Luther's concept of justification. If original sin effects our inner self, then the cure, Jesus Christ, MUST effect us in the reverse manner - our inner self is cured. We are not merely legally made just.

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom 5:17-19

No, we are changed. We are now a new creation. When God declares something, it is SO.

Regards

 

[unred typo]

And see, I see our Justification taking place on the cross. I was reading an essay by a gentlman a professor from Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary regarding Justification. In it, he writes:

----
"Justify" is a word with Roman (Latin) roots which is easily understood in a Latin (Roman) Catholic sense. In literal translation it means "make just" or "make righteous." It suggests a process of change and improvement.

Justificare is the Latin Bible's rendering of the Greek dikaioun. And that verb does not mean "make just" or "make righteous." In every New Testiment instance, as well as in the Old Testament's corresponding hitzdik, the word means to "declare just or rightous," "acquit."
----

For me it would seem that my very own salvation is nothing more than God using my entire being as the means for bringing it about.

As you ahve said Fran, it is all to His credit...

Right, the justification is done by entirely by Christ on the cross. We were completely acquitted of our sin by his blood. We were bought with that price, his precious blood, given freely out of mercy and love. But we were bought that we might live unto God. We were free from sin and death so that we could serve God in newness of life. There is no reason to be slaves to the flesh, since he has redeemed us from the curse of sin and death brought about by our breaking of the law. Now we can love and forgive freely as we were loved and forgiven freely by God.

Does that mean we are free to do as we please and continue in sin? That would be like staying in the prison and never being aware that we are free. If you live as a slave to sin, it is your own fault because you have been freed to serve Christ.

How do we serve Christ? By doing what he told us to do. Love and forgive one another. Is stealing from your friend showing love? Is lusting after your neighbor’s wife loving your neighbor? Is lying to your brother loving him? Is getting great wealth for yourself and not sharing with the less fortunate, loving others? Is holding a grudge being forgiving? Is demanding payment, forgiving? Is slapping someone back when they slap you, forgiving them?

That may sound to some of you that we have been freed from the Old Testament law just to turn around to be slaves to another law under Christ. Now you’re starting to catch on. But his burden is light and his yoke is easy. Like the commercial. Not a lot of rules, just right.

 

[unred typo]

What about Romans 11? I have no problems with that. Of course we are saved by grace, not by our OWN works. However, our works IN CHRIST are NOT our OWN works. They are OUR works (mine and Christ). Since we can do nothing good without Christ, our loving works cannot be our own works, but God and my works. This is grace, because my own works alone do not save me. I am justified by good deeds throughout my life (Romans 2), but these deeds are not mine alone, so I cannot boast.

I agree wholeheartedly that we cannot boast. My grounds for this are a little different though. We may be feeling different parts of the same elephant, but we shall see. :wink:

We are saved by grace, we know that. God didn’t HAVE to save us. Whatever he requires us to do to be saved is by grace. Let me think of one of my dramatic analogies that everyone hates. (I hate them too, they never work, but I keep trying.)

I’m feeling like an old western. You have been caught red handed cheating at cards. You run out the door, jump on the guy’s horse, I mean ‘hoss’, and the saddle falls off and you are in the dust staring up the barrel of his gun. The law of the west allows him to pull the trigger. After all, you’re a lying, cheating, hoss thief. But he decides to allow you mercy. Instead of shooting you, you will be given the gift of life, if you dance above the bullets he shoots under your feet. You dance, he laughs, everyone leaves happy, except for a few holes in your boots.

I hope this is ridiculous enough so no one will try to take this analogy to make any further comparisons of the gunslinger with God. I just want you to see that the mercy of allowing you to live may still require you to do works and you still can’t claim that you earned mercy because you didn’t cheat.

The only thing your dancing proved was that you were humbled and sorry you cheated, at least that you got caught cheating. Your cheating didn’t earn you the money at the table, and almost cost you your life. Your repentance may have bought you your life, but you cannot brag that you earned mercy. The mercy was totally at the discretion of the one holding the gun. So boasting is excluded. Could you have not danced and still not gotten shot? No, he was po’d. You were in effect, ‘dead in trespasses and sins.’ :smt071

But ultimately, it was his mercy that saved you, not your repentance, not your dancing. :multi: You were great, btw, but don’t give up your day job. :wink:

I hope you got my meaning that time, Joe. I would hate to have to put you on my bus ‘c’ again. The brakes are shot. :wink:

 

[francisdesales]

...You were in effect, ‘dead in trespasses and sins.’ :smt071

What amazing emoticons!

But ultimately, it was his mercy that saved you, not your repentance, not your dancing. You were great, btw, but don’t give up your day job. :wink:

Yes, I agree, it is God's mercy that saves us, not anything we do. What's love got to do with it (without invoking Tina Turner!) :D

Does love (our love for others) have anything to do with heaven? Does God judge us based on our good deeds of love?

I hope you got my meaning that time, Joe. I would hate to have to put you on my bus ‘c’ again. The brakes are shot. :wink:

NO! Not the bus! :P

Regards

 

[unred typo]

I see you dropped your double, Joe... I'll be back tonight with a better answer... :painting:

 

[unred typo]

I'll be back tonight with a better answer...

Ah, boast not of tomorrow... :-?
Actually, i did write one but didn't get to finish or post it due to unexpected company, bla bla bla... sorry for the delay.

Yes, I agree, it is God's mercy that saves us, not anything we do. What's love got to do with it (without invoking Tina Turner!) :D

Does love (our love for others) have anything to do with heaven? Does God judge us based on our good deeds of love?

LOL. Tina Turner... :smt061 It may be a question to her but that’s what the Bible says, Joe. The parable of the sheep and goats can’t just be about nations, because how are entire nations going to be given the reward of heaven or the punishment of hell? The individuals of those nations are going to be judged individually, and by works of kindness and love, or lack thereof.

I understand the apparent enigma of faith and works. How does it all fit together? It seems easy to me but explaining it is difficult because of all the false notions entwined into the various scriptures used to ‘prove’ doctrines like ‘OSAS’, ‘TULIP’ and Calvinism. I took a little extra time to evaluate your excellent question and what will no doubt be my complicated yet inadequate answer.

First, we have a few things to consider.
The first is Sin = Death. We agree.
That must be balanced by the opposite:
Obedience =Life.
These both are clearly taught and generally agreed to. (scripture upon request) The Obedience = Life is a promise from God in the first covenant made to Israel. It was given to the world as well, but in order to be under that covenant, you had to become a Jew. Since one sin would disqualify a person from the life promised, only a sinless person could qualify. Since all have sinned, we must have the sacrificial system which was provided by the blood:

Now we can add this: Repentance and Faith in the Blood = Forgiveness.
The person who had repented of his sin, confessed them and transferred those sins to the head of the animal. The blood of a sheep or goat could not save forever because it is merely a life given in replace of another life. With the next year, another life had to be taken for sin, and so on. This was done on a regular basis. So far, I think you agree and know all of this from your own studies.

The gift of the blood of Christ was different from the innocent animal. He had not committed a sin and he had eternal life. His was a sacrifice of eternal blood, not animal blood that represented only a life of a few years. He would only have to die once to pay for all those who would be spiritually placed ‘in him.’ The blood never will have to be shed again. The sacrifice is finished. This is the picture we get from scripture I believe you would agree, if we don‘t have a conflict here in regard to RCC doctrines of trans-whatever.

I believe we still agree that in order to have the blood of Christ apply to our sins, we must confess/repent of them. The Jew who had just sacrificed a lamb to pay for his sins, didn’t say, “now I don’t have to keep the commandments for another year.†No, the lamb didn’t pay for sins in advance, nor did it continue to pay for sins that happened after he had repented of those sins. The error of OSAS is that the once for all time sacrifice of Christ pays for unconfessed sins and unrepentant sinners. The sacrifice was a one time event, not the confession. I know we agree here.

So far, so good, but no love involved. Wrong. We passed right by it. The love is the keeping of the commandments for which we had to repent because we broke them. What is the law but to love God and one another? What did Jesus teach? Love. Love is the opposite of sin. Love is obedience to Christ. When we love one another and God, we break no commands of God. When we repent of sin, we are renewing our commitment to love and good works. So love is the keeping of our vow to obey, which = eternal life. Repentance and confession keep our works of obedience perfect before God, because of the gift of the blood. Does that do it or did you miss the bus again? :smt102


Luke 6:35
But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and you shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. :smt109

 

[francisdesales]

LOL. Tina Turner... :smt061 It may be a question to her but that’s what the Bible says, Joe. The parable of the sheep and goats can’t just be about nations, because how are entire nations going to be given the reward of heaven or the punishment of hell? The individuals of those nations are going to be judged individually, and by works of kindness and love, or lack thereof.

As you know, I agree with you. My rhetorical question was not aimed at you. I realize that love is extremely important in the salvation question. My question was more directed at those who believe in the OSAS idea.

I understand the apparent enigma of faith and works. How does it all fit together? It seems easy to me but explaining it is difficult because of all the false notions entwined into the various scriptures used to ‘prove’ doctrines like ‘OSAS’, ‘TULIP’ and Calvinism. I took a little extra time to evaluate your excellent question and what will no doubt be my complicated yet inadequate answer.

yes, explaining it is difficult, but not because it is a difficult concept, but that people have a hard time letting go of error. They read a few verses that say we are saved by faith without works, and they naturally interpret that to mean we are saved by faith ALONE without ANYTHING we do. Thus, Paul's notion of "works", the Jewish Law, is changed into ANY human action. I don't understand this leap that pretty much destroys what Christ said over and over again about love.

So far, so good, but no love involved. Wrong. We passed right by it. The love is the keeping of the commandments for which we had to repent because we broke them. What is the law but to love God and one another? What did Jesus teach? Love. Love is the opposite of sin. Love is obedience to Christ. When we love one another and God, we break no commands of God. When we repent of sin, we are renewing our commitment to love and good works. So love is the keeping of our vow to obey, which = eternal life. Repentance and confession keep our works of obedience perfect before God, because of the gift of the blood. Does that do it or did you miss the bus again? :smt102

We are on the same sheet of music, you're preaching to the choir. I am at a loss to explain to others (so they "get it") that we are full of it if we claim to have faith that has no obedience. What sort of bible do they have that says obedience is no longer necessary now that we are "saved"? I find that to be a ridiculous relationship. But I guess this comes from the faulty legal notion that God is a judge who cares not for us, but merely stamps a label on us "SAVED". The Bible is crystal clear that those who continue to sin after receiving the knowledge of Christ are in danger of going to hell, of losing their inheritance.

In my opinion, this misunderstanding of Scripture comes from their inadequate definition of "salvation". Thus, they become confused when they see that we are saved in the past - and appropriating that to eternal salvation. Thus, they believe "once saved (healed), always saved". This totally ignores the idea that salvation is ALSO a present and future event that DEPENDS upon our response of love in God, our obedience to Him.

Regards

 

[unred typo]

We are on the same sheet of music, you're preaching to the choir. I am at a loss to explain to others (so they "get it") that we are full of it if we claim to have faith that has no obedience. What sort of bible do they have that says obedience is no longer necessary now that we are "saved"? I find that to be a ridiculous relationship. But I guess this comes from the faulty legal notion that God is a judge who cares not for us, but merely stamps a label on us "SAVED". The Bible is crystal clear that those who continue to sin after receiving the knowledge of Christ are in danger of going to hell, of losing their inheritance.

In my opinion, this misunderstanding of Scripture comes from their inadequate definition of "salvation". Thus, they become confused when they see that we are saved in the past - and appropriating that to eternal salvation. Thus, they believe "once saved (healed), always saved". This totally ignores the idea that salvation is ALSO a present and future event that DEPENDS upon our response of love in God, our obedience to Him.

Regards

Good answer. I got the impression you were playing devil’s advocate there but I thought I would spell it out again (again,again,again…) for those who have OSAS tucked firmly under their belt and are complacently sitting on it or at least telling others they can rest assured NOTHING can change that magic moment back in (fill in date). :roll: The word 'healed' is an apt description. One would never say, 'once healed, always healed,' would they? Especially if they return to the lifestyle that caused their disease.

 

[Fnerb]

Good answer. I got the impression you were playing devil’s advocate there but I thought I would spell it out again (again,again,again…) for those who have OSAS tucked firmly under their belt and are complacently sitting on it or at least telling others they can rest assured NOTHING can change that magic moment back in (fill in date). :roll: The word 'healed' is an apt description. One would never say, 'once healed, always healed,' would they? Especially if they return to the lifestyle that caused their disease.

Maybe for my own clarification, but are you talking to those people whom say, "I asked Jesus into my life on this date and because of that no matter what I do i'm saved!"?

I believe in objective justification. That weather I want to believe it or not, what Christ did on that cross for me doesn't change. I do not however hold to justification by infusion - that is, my justification is an on-going process by Chris working in me.

I just have a hard time seeing how the on-going process of my Sanctification has anything to add to my entrance into heaven.

 

[golfjack]

reply

Fran. It seems to me that what you are saying is that we are saved, but after we are saved we must work our way to heaven by obedience and love. The one thing I know is that we cannot out love God and we cannot out mercy God. It is He alone that secures our salvation. I imagine you would say that if what you call a Mortal sin, then we must confess it to a priest for it to be forgiven. It isGod that Has mercy and not the priest. Then, you might say if we commit what you call venial sins, then one must go to purgatory to get them purged. These beliefs are unbiblical and contrary to the Word of God. We indeed are set free in the liberty that Jesus bought for us. Set free by what? The truth of God's word. Your beliefs are a distortion to the Gospel Message and are the words of men and not God. They don't pass the smell test.


May God bless, Golfjack[/b]

 

[francisdesales]

Good answer. I got the impression you were playing devil’s advocate there but I thought I would spell it out again (again,again,again…) for those who have OSAS tucked firmly under their belt and are complacently sitting on it or at least telling others they can rest assured NOTHING can change that magic moment back in (fill in date). :roll: The word 'healed' is an apt description. One would never say, 'once healed, always healed,' would they? Especially if they return to the lifestyle that caused their disease.

Exactly. The word "saved" also means "healed", but that seems to be ignored. When brought up, I get no response. Apparently, people who get healed never get sick again... You are right on. One has returned to the vomit, if I can refer to Peter, they are in danger of tossing away their inheritance and requiring another "healing" from our Doctor, Jesus Christ.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Maybe for my own clarification, but are you talking to those people whom say, "I asked Jesus into my life on this date and because of that no matter what I do i'm saved!"?

I believe in objective justification. That weather I want to believe it or not, what Christ did on that cross for me doesn't change. I do not however hold to justification by infusion - that is, my justification is an on-going process by Chris working in me.

I just have a hard time seeing how the on-going process of my Sanctification has anything to add to my entrance into heaven.

Brother Fnerb,

The word "justification" and "sanctification" are used interchangeably in Scriptures. Justification doesn't JUST mean that first time we accept the Lord into our hearts. Wasn't David JUSTIFIED when he returned to God AFTER committing adultery? (as in Romans 4) Wasn't he justified BEFORE he committed the adultery? And please don't suggest he was justified WHILE committing adultery... God will have none of that.

Also, Abraham was considered justified on three separate occasions by the NT writers James, Romans, and Hebrews. These all refer to being justified over the course of one's life, not just that first moment. This makes perfect sense, as God tests us THROUGHOUT our lives, and He expects us to CONTINUE to choose Him, not just once.

Whether we are justified by infusion, you should consider which is more powerful... Sin or Jesus Christ. Read Romans 5. IF sin is destructive to our CORE - then Jesus HEALS us to our core - unless you find that Jesus' sacrifice was not good enough to heal our inner selves, making sin more powerful than Christ.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Re: reply

Fran. It seems to me that what you are saying is that we are saved, but after we are saved we must work our way to heaven by obedience and love.

Work our way by love? I am not sure I follow that contradiction. Didn't Jesus say the yoke He lays on us is light? One does not "work" when they love. Also, please try to remember that Catholics, along with Scripture, do not consider salvation ONLY a one time event.

The one thing I know is that we cannot out love God and we cannot out mercy God. It is He alone that secures our salvation. I imagine you would say that if what you call a Mortal sin, then we must confess it to a priest for it to be forgiven. It is God that Has mercy and not the priest.

I never said we could "out love" God. But why do you have God battling men so that men can be saved? Is this a competition that God initiates, to see who can love more? Hardly. God gives us gifts out of love. We have the CHOICE to use these gifts, out of love. Will we? Will we use the "talents" God has given us? Remember Matthew 25? Are you going to go bury your talent, or use it?

As to priests, of course it is not absolutely necessary to confess to a priest. If I was born in the jungles of the Amazon in 1200 AD before the Spaniards brought Catholicism, does that mean that God cannot save the jungle people? God works through people. Always has and always will. I am guessing you have noticed this in your bible readings? Moses? Josua? Jeremiah? Was God working through them or not?

Then, you might say if we commit what you call venial sins, then one must go to purgatory to get them purged. These beliefs are unbiblical and contrary to the Word of God.

Nothing impure shall enter heaven. That's unbiblical? You won't be pure if you have sinned and have not been forgiven of that sin.

We indeed are set free in the liberty that Jesus bought for us. Set free by what? The truth of God's word. Your beliefs are a distortion to the Gospel Message and are the words of men and not God. They don't pass the smell test.

Saying they are distorted and proving them to be so appears to be a difficult proposition for you. YOU won't pass the smell test if you, along with Luther, consider yourself a pile of manure covered with the "clean snow of Jesus Christ" that will get you into heaven. "Sin mightily" indeed! This idea is absolutely absurd and totally contradicts the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You distort Paul to your own destruction (as 2 Peter says).

Regards

 

[golfjack]

reply

Fran, Remember when I told you that you have no understanding of spirit, soul, and body. You see, the spirit of man is the part of man that is born again. It is the part of man that receives eternal life, which is the nature and life of God. It is the spirit of man that becomes a new creature in Christ Jesus. The soul is not the innermost being at all. It is not the soul that is born again. The saving of the soul is a process.

Let's see what James 1:18 says: Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive wiith meekness the engrafted word, which is to save your souls. James is talking to born again believers. Of the Father's own will, he writes, we were begotten, or born-again by the Word of Truth. He calls them my beloved brethern, so they were in Christ. Yet he encourages these believers to receive the engrafted Word with meekness, which is able to save your souls. Evidently, their souls were not saved.

You see, a man's spirit, the innermost man, the real man, receives eternal life and is born again. But his intellect and emotions, which comprise his soul, still have to be dealt with. They are not born again. They are to be renewed. Paul speaks about the renewing of the mind, writing to tghe saints at Rome. See Romans 12:2, Psalm 23:3.

In the Word it is never written that God restores our spirits. Our souls, however, must be renewed or restored

Man's soul is saved, or restored, when his mind becomes renewed with the Word of God. It is the Word of God that savves our souls, that renews our minds, that restores our souls.

When our minds become renewed with the Word of God, then we think in line with what God's Word says. We are able to know and prove the permissive and the pedrfect will of God, because the Word of God is the will of God. WEe don't have so many questions about the Will of God once we get our souls saved.

I believe the greatest need in the Church today is to have minds renewed with the Word of God. Therefore Fran, I hope this explains our part in salvation. I perceive many Catholic's and others don't understand that we are a three part being, which is spirit, soul, and body. By not knowing this, your thelogy is really messed up.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[unred typo]

Maybe for my own clarification, but are you talking to those people whom say, "I asked Jesus into my life on this date and because of that no matter what I do i'm saved!"?

I believe in objective justification. That weather I want to believe it or not, what Christ did on that cross for me doesn't change. I do not however hold to justification by infusion - that is, my justification is an on-going process by Chris working in me.

I just have a hard time seeing how the on-going process of my Sanctification has anything to add to my entrance into heaven.

I have a hard time seeing how you can even think of entering heaven without the ongoing process of yielding in obedience to God. Romans 2:6-10 Without holiness no man will see the Lord. Hebrews 12:14 We cannot produce perfect holiness but by following what Jesus taught, basically love one another, and repentance when we do something that is not of love, then we are made fit to enter heaven. When we are completely submissive to the leading of God, he will cause us to be born of the Spirit. The seed of the word finds root in our hearts and produces the fruit of the Spirit.

.

 

[SpiritualSon]

To All,
Paul's statement that man is justified by faith without the deeds prescribed by the law (Romans 3:28) had not been properly understood. For by faith there Paul did not mean the faith of the present-day church,which is in three Divine persons from eternity, but faith in the one and only God, the Saviour Jesus Christ. By the deeds prescribed by the law he did not mean the deeds prescribed by the law of the Ten Commandments, but those prescribed for the Jews by the law of Moses. Thus from those few words people had come to two monstrously false conclusions by incorrect interpretation: that faith meant the faith of the present-day church, and the deeds meant those prescribed by the Ten Commandments. 'Paul did not mean these,' they said, 'but those prescribed by the law of Moses which were intended for the Jews; and this is clearly established from his saying to Peter, whom he criticised for following Jewish practices, although he knew that no one is justified by the deeds prescribed by the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ (Gal. 2:14-16).' The faith of Jesus Christ is faith in Him and from Him, see above 338. Because by the deeds prescribed by the law Paul understood the deeds prescribed by the law of Moses, he made a distinction between the law of faith and the law of deeds, and between Jews and gentiles, or between circumcision and lack of circumcision. Circumcision means the Jews, as everywhere else. And he ends with these words:

Are we then abolishing the law by faith? By no means, we are reinforcing the law. Rom. 3:27-31.

(He says all this in a single passage.) He also says in the preceding chapter:

It is not those who hear the law who will be justified by God, but those who keep it. Romans 2:13.

He says elsewhere that God will repay each according to his deeds (Romans 2:6), and:

We must all be put on show before the tribunal of Christ, so that each may be rewarded for his bodily acts, whether good or ill. 2 Cor. 5:10.

There are many more passages showing that Paul rejected faith without good deeds, just as much as James did (James 2:17-26).

Harry :fadein:

 

[francisdesales]

Re: reply

Fran, Remember when I told you that you have no understanding of spirit, soul, and body. You see, the spirit of man is the part of man that is born again.

Yes, yes, I know I have no understanding. Bear with me for a minute. (see tagline)

I ask you, what part of man was wounded by original sin?

"For if by the offence of one, many died; much more the grace of God, and the gift, by the grace of one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one sin, so also is the gift. For judgment indeed was by one unto condemnation; but grace is of many offences, unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned through one; much more they who receive abundance of grace, and of the gift, and of justice, shall reign in life through one, Jesus Christ. Therefore, as by the offence of one, unto all men to condemnation; so also by the justice of one, unto all men to justification of life. For as by the disobedience of one man, many were made sinners; so also by the obedience of one, many shall be made just. Now the law entered in, that sin might abound. And where sin abounded, grace did more abound. That as sin hath reigned to death; so also grace might reign by justice unto life everlasting, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 5:15-21

Seems Paul believes the WHOLE MAN is effected. No distinction is made between "soul" or "body" or "spirit". Also, I point out that Paul says AS man is condemned, SO he is saved by Christ. Thus, to whatever depths you believe that man was effected by sin, THAT SAME DEPTHS are HEALED by Christ... Thus, this idea of imputed righteousness is a denial of the ability of God to heal our inner selves.

Now, if the ENTIRE man is effected by sin, again, I ask you, is Jesus' work on the cross insufficient to save the entire man? Or does Jesus only save the "spirit", allowing the "soul" and "body" to die?

Can you point out to me this distinction from Scriptures between soul and spirit? I have asked you this before, but you again condemned me and my inferior understanding without explaining yourself. James 1:18 doesn't define or distinguish between souls and spirit. By saying "able to save your souls" doesn't mean that the spirit (if there is a difference between the two) or the flesh are NOT saved...

Where exactly does James say that a man's soul is saved WITHOUT the spirit or the body?

Doesn't Paul say that the flesh will rise again in 1 Corithians 15? Thus, our ENTIRE SELVES are saved.

In the Word it is never written that God restores our spirits. Our souls, however, must be renewed or restored

Can you show me from Scriptures the difference? And what about our body? Isn't it restored? Isn't it saved? Or does your particular group not believe in the bodily resurrection of the dead?

When our minds become renewed with the Word of God, then we think in line with what God's Word says. We are able to know and prove the permissive and the pedrfect will of God, because the Word of God is the will of God. WEe don't have so many questions about the Will of God once we get our souls saved.

You are able to perceive the will of God? In every situation? I'm sorry, but I remain skeptical of such claims... Your soul may have been healed if it was baptized, but that it only the first step in becoming eternally saved.

I believe the greatest need in the Church today is to have minds renewed with the Word of God. Therefore Fran, I hope this explains our part in salvation. I perceive many Catholic's and others don't understand that we are a three part being, which is spirit, soul, and body. By not knowing this, your thelogy is really messed up.

Where exactly is your idea of man proven in Scriptures?

And your denial of so much Scripture about losing one's inheritance and your inability to explain the necessity of obeying God and of being justified by love shows the ineffectiveness of your theology to explain the core of the Word of God. As such, this leads me to believe your ability to figure out the Will of God is very limited. How can you "know" the will of God but not understand the Scriptures?

Your theology believes that Christ didn't fully save ALL of man, that sin is more powerful than Christ, so what can I say to someone who believes Christ's work was insufficient??? :

Regards