If God Loved everyone !

[Orion]

You have confidence in the Holy Spirit to know the truth if you are truly seeking God and serving Him with all your might. Most of us read the Bible but we still read differently. But we all will have consequences for not following the Truth. We cannot blame anyone for our disobedience because we dont know the truth.

"Disobedience" isn't true disobedience unless the person actually DOES know what's right and chooses not to do it.

Back to topic, though, . . . "does god love everyone". Two view points were hotly debated between christians, both having scriptures to back themselves up. Both would claim that they got their opinions via "spiritual discernment". So how am I supposed to take "you need to believe before god will reveal truth to you" seriously when those who DO believe can't agree on something so fundamental as "does god love everyone?

 

[Cutaway]

If God loved everyone, whats the sense of Jesus making a statement like this ?

Jn 14:

21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Why say this if God loves everyone any way ?

Maybe because God does not love everyone? God hated Esau and loved Jacob.

Agreed..

Also agreed.

All one has to do is look at how many god killed in the bible to see this.

 

[Free]

If God is love, how can he not love?

 

[RND]

But you did. You said, "You would then be assuming that everyone is graced by the Holy Spirit with the same level of understanding; which they aren't ...." . . . meaning that some have communication and others don't.

One's affliation had nothing to do with their level of understanding.

What I'm getting at is that entire denominations disagree with other denominations, yet both believe that they are receiving their insight via "spiritual discernment". What up?

There are people within these denominations that agree with the leading of the Holy Spirit more than they do their own denomination.

I think that depends on what your expectation might have been. But I suspect you haven't thought that God may be speaking to you in the beautiful sunsets He gives out, or the voice of a baby, or the love of a pet, or the fact you ate today or.....

So, . . . the powerful god of the universe chooses to only show himself in the most mundane ways, . . . and really . . .

If you consider any of these things I mentioned as mundane I really don't know what to say. Have you ever held a sleeping baby or left the unconditional love of a pet? Have you ever marveled at the things God has provided?

SO generalized that it can't be seen as "personal" at all.

Holding a bay isn't a 'generalization' it's an absolute miracle.

A "babies voice", "a pet", "eating", . . . . if you choose to see these as "god speaking to you", and you're good with that, then that's fine.

I am.

For ME, . . . they don't.

Evidently.

Neither does "the sunrise/sunset" [which, to be specific, isn't given out, but is just the result of planetary spin and a clear sky].

Supposing you were unable to see them ever again one day would you consider your present stance regrettable?

 

[RND]

Orion, what would it take for you to actually believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Also, are you aware that there are four things that God does not use to make people love Him and what He has done? Those four things are force, fear, intimation and/or manipulation.

To truly love unconditionally, one must be given a free choice to make a decision. God has taken the risk by allowing free choice.

 

[Orion]

Orion, what would it take for you to actually believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Also, are you aware that there are four things that God does not use to make people love Him and what He has done? Those four things are force, fear, intimation and/or manipulation.

That shouldn't be something for me to answer. If there is a god out there who actually cares enough about me, then with it's advanced knowledge, it will be able to know exactly how I would be reached. It would know that function of "the great commission" [ie. personal experiences of people] wouldn't be enough to convince me. However, to answer your question to the best of MY ability, . . . I would say it would take an actual conversation with god, where I was certain that it was actually happening, that I wasn't under the influence of some mind altering substance, and it happened more than one time. Then this god was able to fully and adequately answer my questions in a way that would make sense to me. I'm quite open to this.

I want to address, however, those "four things" you mentioned. Are you sure? When it is common to hear, "repent or go to Hell", that is a way of getting a response out of people who are afraid of going to Hell. It IS an "intimidation" and a "manipulation".

To truly love unconditionally, one must be given a free choice to make a decision. God has taken the risk by allowing free choice.

A TRUE "free choice decision" wouldn't include a "negative response for the wrong choice" though. And it wouldn't be "one of only TWO places to chose from".

 

[shad]

"Disobedience" isn't true disobedience unless the person actually DOES know what's right and chooses not to do it.

You are right. so it all comes back to how God judges the quality of our servanthood.

.

 

[Orion]

"Disobedience" isn't true disobedience unless the person actually DOES know what's right and chooses not to do it.

You are right. so it all comes back to how God judges the quality of our servanthood.

.

Hmmmmmm. . . .. how so? Not sure what you're saying, exactly.

 

[shad]

"Disobedience" isn't true disobedience unless the person actually DOES know what's right and chooses not to do it.

You are right. so it all comes back to how God judges the quality of our servanthood.

.

Hmmmmmm. . . .. how so? Not sure what you're saying, exactly.

Christianity is mostly about serving God and Jesus. If we are not serving God with all our heart, soul, strength and mind, God will not reveal Him no matter how much we read and study the Bible.

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength and mind."

We can serve God, read and study the Bible at the same time.

.

 

[RND]

That shouldn't be something for me to answer. If there is a god out there who actually cares enough about me, then with it's advanced knowledge, it will be able to know exactly how I would be reached.

He has already given you evidence of His existence and his love - but you don't acknowledge it so what should God do?

It would know that function of "the great commission" [ie. personal experiences of people] wouldn't be enough to convince me. However, to answer your question to the best of MY ability, . . . I would say it would take an actual conversation with god, where I was certain that it was actually happening, that I wasn't under the influence of some mind altering substance, and it happened more than one time. Then this god was able to fully and adequately answer my questions in a way that would make sense to me. I'm quite open to this.

How can God have an actual conversation with you if you don't believe in Him and question the way He does things? For example, since you don't believe in God and God knew you wouldn't believe in Him didn't prevent Him of sending His Son to die on a cross by His very creation. God knew there was a possibility you would reject this yet He did it anyway.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

I want to address, however, those "four things" you mentioned. Are you sure?

100%

When it is common to hear, "repent or go to Hell", that is a way of getting a response out of people who are afraid of going to Hell. It IS an "intimidation" and a "manipulation".

Well, there's several ways to look at this. For example, what's the definition of hell? Also, if one rejects the obvious advances of love shown to them by God is it God's fault that those advances are rejected? Lastly, is it "intimidation" and a "manipulation" if the true side of God is not presented?

Before I became a Christian I could never understand a "loving" God torching someone forever that made a choice not to love Him. Didn't seem right. But in examining my Bible everyday for many years now I see a God that never forces anyone to do anything they don't want to do. He allows people do to what they want even if is contrary to His word of truth.

To truly love unconditionally, one must be given a free choice to make a decision. God has taken the risk by allowing free choice.

A TRUE "free choice decision" wouldn't include a "negative response for the wrong choice" though.

Depends on your view of what's negative I suppose. I might liken being in the presence of God as being at a party or event where you were uncomfortable and didn't want to be there - maybe you didn't know the people, maybe you were an outsider, etc. If you want to leave God is not going to stop you. However, if you want to mingle and socialize God certainly would encourage it!

Look at it this way. If you have no desire to enjoy a relationship with God then He is under no obligation to have a relationship with you. That's choice. But God chooses to woo you anyway because of His love. He feeds you, cares for you, puts a roof over your head, and gives you evidence of His existence daily.

He doesn't want you to perish. Yet, if you want to make the choice of not being with Him and enjoying His presence He won't prevent you from making that choice. In other words, Heaven and paradise with God for all eternity would be literal 'hell' for those that don't want to be with God.

And it wouldn't be "one of only TWO places to chose from".

What other choices are there?

 

[Orion]

Okay, . . .so what about the many years when I was sincere in my christianity? There was a time when I was gleeful about the verses where "god blows them away like chaf", or would have argued against those who dare to say "the world wide flood never happened", and defended all the deaths. Nowadays, I don't see the morality/ethics in many of the things I used to white wash over. If that is the "truth" that god reveals, . . . then I will have to say that I can do without that kind of "truth". In fact, it was a Chick Tract that really made me ponder the rammifications of "the Noah flood", and why I don't see the ethics/morality in it. However, that's for another topic.

Again, if he chooses to let me know what REALLY happened, and I see the actual truth, not the "recorded by man" type of "truth", then I'm open to that.


But anyway, I'm done asking the question about "spiritual discernment amongst differing denominations" because I'm not getting any answers.

 

[shad]

Okay, . . .so what about the many years when I was sincere in my christianity?

Are you sure you served Jesus with your might? Do you know that Jesus wants all His followers to be holy and righteous? Did you strive to be holy and righteous by getting rid of all your secular way of living?

.

 

[shad]

In other words, Heaven and paradise with God for all eternity would be literal 'hell' for those that don't want to be with God.

This is an excellent analogy.

 

[Orion]

He has already given you evidence of His existence and his love - but you don't acknowledge it so what should God do?

No, . . . what there IS . . . is the words of what men thousands of years ago stated. That isn't true evidence of who god really is. There is a big difference.

How can God have an actual conversation with you if you don't believe in Him and question the way He does things? For example, since you don't believe in God and God knew you wouldn't believe in Him didn't prevent Him of sending His Son to die on a cross by His very creation. God knew there was a possibility you would reject this yet He did it anyway.

I'm not an atheist. I'm not saying "I don't believe in god". I don't take the words of [bronze/iron age] men or the personal convictions of the followers as "who god really is". Most of my problems are with what was written and believed for millenias.

 

[RND]

Okay, . . .so what about the many years when I was sincere in my christianity?

What about it?

There was a time when I was gleeful about the verses where "god blows them away like chaf", or would have argued against those who dare to say "the world wide flood never happened", and defended all the deaths.

Wow! If you were gleeful about the death of the wicked I wonder what God you were following frankly. If God Himself takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked why would anyone?

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Nowadays, I don't see the morality/ethics in many of the things I used to white wash over.

I don't know what you mean here. Could you provide an example?

If that is the "truth" that god reveals, . . . then I will have to say that I can do without that kind of "truth". In fact, it was a Chick Tract that really made me ponder the rammifications of "the Noah flood", and why I don't see the ethics/morality in it. However, that's for another topic.

The same "Spirit" that God used to raise Jesus from the tomb is the same "Spirit" that God used to preach to those in Noah's day.

Here's a great book that I think has many answers about the flood you might consider:

Patriarchs and Prophets

Read chapters 1 and 7.

Again, if he chooses to let me know what REALLY happened, and I see the actual truth, not the "recorded by man" type of "truth", then I'm open to that.

And that's where you are making a huge mistake. You want to know the spiritual things of God without surrendering to the spiritual nature that God is willing to give to you. Kinda like wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

But anyway, I'm done asking the question about "spiritual discernment amongst differing denominations" because I'm not getting any answers.

It's the individuals within those denominations that matter, not the denomination - I think that's the point I'm trying to impress. When we get to heaven God won't care what denominations we claimed to be.

 

[Orion]

Okay, . . .so what about the many years when I was sincere in my christianity?

Are you sure you served Jesus with your might? Do you know that Jesus wants all His followers to be holy and righteous? Did you strive to be holy and righteous by getting rid of all your secular way of living?

.

Absolutely. As best as I knew how. Having said that, . . . no one can do it perfectly. No one actually "serves with all their might". If they did, they would never sit in front of a TV at all. Every waking moment would all be about making disciples. Even during eating, . . . you would find people EVERY time to feed and tell them about Jesus. You would sell all you had and give it to the poor. You would never do anything for yourself that was fun, because it would be time that could have been spent on reaching one more soul. I could go on, but I trust you get my point. Yes, I fully believed.

 

[glorydaz]

Maybe because God does not love everyone? God hated Esau and loved Jacob.

Agreed..

Also agreed.

All one has to do is look at how many god killed in the bible to see this.

There was no good reason, that man can see, for God loving Jacob, it was God's sovereign grace alone.

There was a good reason for "hating" Esau, and it was that God knew his heart.
God knew the sin and hated it....even after "repenting", this was in Esau's heart....

And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him: and Esau said in his heart, The days of mourning for my father are at hand; then will I slay my brother Jacob.

It was the same sin God knew was in Cain's heart, and God knew from the beginning what Cain's heart contained.

It isn't for the creation to question the Creator, He does only what is right and just.

 

[RND]

In other words, Heaven and paradise with God for all eternity would be literal 'hell' for those that don't want to be with God.

This is an excellent analogy.

Thanks, I wish I could take credit for that statement though. I can't though.

Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests?

Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to Heaven, and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love; every countenance beaming with joy; enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb; and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb?--No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for Heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of Heaven, and now it is too late.

A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for Heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from Heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. -- Ellen G. White, The Great Controversy, page 542

 

[Orion]

I don't know what you mean here. Could you provide an example?

The "for example"-ed Noah flood. The Chick tract showed the flood waters rising and eventually the arms of a mother being the only part of her sticking out of the water as she held up [out of the water] an infant.

There are a number of other issues. Abraham and Isaiac, Job, Jephthah, destruction while trekking to "the promised land", just to name a few.

And that's where you are making a huge mistake. You want to know the spiritual things of God without surrendering to the spiritual nature that God is willing to give to you. Kinda like wanting to have your cake and eat it too.[/qoute]

Oh, . . . you see, that's where you and I think oppositely. Knowledge should always come before "surrendering to something".

It's the individuals within those denominations that matter, not the denomination - I think that's the point I'm trying to impress. When we get to heaven God won't care what denominations we claimed to be.

But it is the individuals who made up that specific denomination's doctrine that differs from your own, though. That's the point that I am trying to make. And that's why I question the "spiritual discernment" thing, because like THIS topic fell into, one side said that "god loved everyone", another side said that "god did NOT love everyone, but actually hates some". [and actually, it was why I posted here].

 

[Orion]

BTW, . . . I neither despise nor hate any of you!!!!