If God Loved everyone !

[RND]

You know whenever I see the arguments by Calvinistas I'm reminded of the parable that Jesus told in Luke 18 about the Pharisee and the publican. Calvinistas seem to be a rather smug group (over generalization, I know). The "we're saved because we're elect" crowd and you ain't!

Why is it that have such a difficult time sharing the beauty of the Lord's work on the cross (over generalization, I know)?

 

[glorydaz]

The Israel of God is covered, comprised of both Jew and gentile, so thats all who receives repentance, the church, the israel of God, comprised of both jews and gentiles..the rest of mankind will perish in their sins as God created them for..

God loved us while we were still in our sins...He loved us before we loved Him....before we repented of our sins.

It can't get any clearer than that.

God Loved His elect while still in their sins..not the non elect, the children of the devil..ps 5:

5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Then why does God command all men every where to repent?

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

You cling to that one verse and ignore hundreds that say quite plainly that God's call to repentance is to all....not just the elect.
You even claim all doesn't mean all.
Not only that, but you work iniquity yourself, so that sorta shoots down your claim from the get.

 

[mutzrein]

The premise is wrong. And this is the reason that so many fall into the trap of believing that man can accept or reject life.

A man has a choice to accept the work of the Lord on the cross or they don't.

A man who is drowning still has life and can grasp onto a life preserver.

Exactly! A drowning man has a choice to reach for the life preserver or not! Just as a sinner has a choice to reach for Jesus Christ or not.

[quote:3ou142uf] A man who is dead cannot.

That's true. But unfortunately that would be making the assumption that he never had a life preserver thrown in his direction! By the testimony of the word of God we know he did.

The truth is, we are NOT all dying.

That's news to me.

Those who have not received the gift of life are DEAD.

Everyone dies. Christ died the 'second death' so we would not have to.

And it is only by the grace of God that man has life - for he can do nothing to achieve it.

He has to accept it. This is faith.

You see the righteousness that God requires can never be built on a human decision to 'accept' life.

Never suggested that. Simply suggested that a man must make a simple choice: To believe God and His words of truth and actions of love or reject them. This is a 'free choice' just as much as choosing a life preserver is!

I'll ask the question again: Did not Jesus throw mankind a "life preserver" by shedding His own precious blood? Instead of suggesting the premise is wrong answer the question. I answer in the affirmative. How about you?[/quote:3ou142uf]

No, Jesus did not throw mankind a life preserver. To ‘preserve’ life, one must already HAVE life. As I said, your premise is wrong. You see the result of Adam’s sin is that man is DEAD in trespasses and sin. You cannot preserve life if the object of the intended preservation is dead. You can GIVE life to it . . . but preserving it? Absolutely not!

 

[RND]

No, Jesus did not throw mankind a life preserver.

Not a literal one of course. That's why it's called an analogy. But He did come to give life and that more abundantly.

Jhn 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly.

This sounds like a life preserver to me:

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

To ‘preserve’ life, one must already HAVE life. As I said, your premise is wrong.

You're looking at things too literal. But keep in mind Christ did come to give a man a "new life."

You see the result of Adam’s sin is that man is DEAD in trespasses and sin.

Not after a man accepts Christ. He's a new creature then.

You cannot preserve life if the object of the intended preservation is dead.

The 'dead' are those without Jesus, you have things backwards.

You can GIVE life to it . . . but preserving it? Absolutely not!

What Bible are you reading?

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory asked:

Then why does God command all men every where to repent?

Thats an command to the gentile elect to whom repentance had been granted to acts 11:

18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

So paul is saying, repentance is not only to the jews, but to all men every where, but they still have to be elect men..

 

[glorydaz]

glory asked:

Then why does God command all men every where to repent?

Thats an command to the gentile elect to whom repentance had been granted to acts 11:

18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

So paul is saying, repentance is not only to the jews, but to all men every where, but they still have to be elect men..

You're confusing God's grace with God's call for men to repent.
Repenting is a humbling of oneself to God and turning from our sins.
He calls all men every where to repent...ALL MEN.

You can't just add on your own little version at the end of a scripture....as you do when you add, "but they still have to be elect men". That is adding on to the Word of God...not good. :naughty

 

[savedbygrace57]

2 cor 5:19 -

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2 cor 5:

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

What world is this ? For this particular world does not have its tresspasses imputed or charged to them, so it surely cannot mean men and women who will shortly appear before the great white Throne Judgment..

rev 20:

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.


12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Again, these certainly cannot be of the world paul refers to in 2 cor 5 19..

For those at the White Throne, it appears that their sins had been imputed to them..,

But in 2 cor 5 19, we have the reconciled world, one that has been reconciled unto God ! How ? lets look at rom 5:

10For if, when we [the church or called ones] were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

They were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, because their sins had not been imputed to them, but unto Him..

So there is a reconciled world, and a condemned world 1 cor 11:

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

You see, the condemend world and the reconciled world are two different worlds..

You have a saved world Jn 3 17 and a ungodly world 2 pet 2 5..

That ungodly world, is the world of the serpents seed gen 3:

14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The reconciled world has had their sins, not imputed to them, but to the Son of God their shepherd and Surety..

The sins of the serpent seed were not laid to the charge of the Son of God, for He never sustained a kinsmen redeemer relationship with the devil and his children..

 

[mutzrein]

No, Jesus did not throw mankind a life preserver.

Not a literal one of course. That's why it's called an analogy. But He did come to give life and that more abundantly.

I have no problems with analogies – but a life preserver which requires a live man to grasp hold of it can in no way reflect the eternal and abundant life that Christ bestows on a man who is dead. Yes, Christ came that man might have life. So how is this effected? Let me give you an analogy. When has a child ever made a decision to be born?

Jhn 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly.
This sounds like a life preserver to me:
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

No, this is not a life preserver. This is the result of being made alive in Christ. If you haven’t, you perish.

To ‘preserve’ life, one must already HAVE life. As I said, your premise is wrong.

You're looking at things too literal. But keep in mind Christ did come to give a man a "new life."

Am I looking at things too literally? No. I believe you don’t understand what it means to be born of God’s spirit.

[quote:34mwrzs9] You see the result of Adam’s sin is that man is DEAD in trespasses and sin.

Not after a man accepts Christ. He's a new creature then.

Show me any passage in scripture which shows that a man should ‘accept’ Christ.

You cannot preserve life if the object of the intended preservation is dead.

The 'dead' are those without Jesus, you have things backwards.

No my friend – it is not I who has it backwards. You believe that a dead man can choose life.

You can GIVE life to it . . . but preserving it? Absolutely not!

What Bible are you reading?

I read the KJV & NIV mainly – what about you?

[/quote:34mwrzs9]

 

[glorydaz]

2 cor 5:19 -

2 cor 5:

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

What world is this ? For this particular world does not have its tresspasses imputed or charged to them, so it surely cannot mean men and women who will shortly appear before the great white Throne Judgment..

You're speaking of those who have been reconciled.

This thread is speaking of God's love...wherein He so loved the world ...all men.
That all men are not reconciled does not diminish Christ's work on the cross.

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[RND]

I have no problems with analogies – but a life preserver which requires a live man to grasp hold of it can in no way reflect the eternal and abundant life that Christ bestows on a man who is dead. Yes, Christ came that man might have life. So how is this effected? Let me give you an analogy. When has a child ever made a decision to be born?

Is it not required for a man to grasp Jesus Christ? Is not a man supposed to say, "Throw me a life preserver"?

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

No, this is not a life preserver. This is the result of being made alive in Christ. If you haven’t, you perish.

Isn't being made alive in Christ our assurance that our eternal life will be preserved?

[quote:2f962q47]To ‘preserve’ life, one must already HAVE life. As I said, your premise is wrong.

You're looking at things too literal. But keep in mind Christ did come to give a man a "new life."

Am I looking at things too literally? No. I believe you don’t understand what it means to be born of God’s spirit.

[/quote:2f962q47] I understand just fine thanks! Being born of the Spirit means one is "alive" in the Spirit! Not dead. Preserved.

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Show me any passage in scripture which shows that a man should ‘accept’ Christ.

You serious? Read John 3 again very carefully.

Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

If one 'accepts' Jesus, His words, actions, thoughts and deeds, by no means will they deny Jesus.

No my friend – it is not I who has it backwards. You believe that a dead man can choose life.

Exactly!

1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Eph 2:1 ¶ And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

The word "quickened" means to be "made alive. Thus, those that were once dead in trespasses and sins have been made alive! Couple this verse with Ephesians 1:20-23 and you can see who has made us alive and how He did it!

Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places], Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: Eph 1:22 And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church, Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

I read the KJV & NIV mainly – what about you?

That explains it then. I'd stay away from the NIV at all costs. I'm a KJV/NKJV/RSV kinda guy myself.

I think it's incredible, astonishing frankly, that anyone would suggest that Jesus ISN'T man kinds 'life preserver.'

 

[glorydaz]

Show me any passage in scripture which shows that a man should ‘accept’ Christ.

Here's our picture from the OT.

If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me; And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity: Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.

Here we see those who seek.... receiving...(accepting).

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Here we see those who have "gladly received"...(accepted).

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Here we have as many as received him...(accepted).

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

And of course, to believe is the ultimate accepting...

And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord.

And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

 

[RND]

Show me any passage in scripture which shows that a man should ‘accept’ Christ.

Here's our picture from the OT.

If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me; And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity: Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.

Here we see those who seek.... receiving...(accepting).

[quote="Matt. 7:7-8":1xmnte06]Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Here we see those who have "gladly received"...(accepted).

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Here we have as many as received him...(accepted).

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

And of course, to believe is the ultimate accepting...

And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord.

And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

[/quote:1xmnte06] Excellent.

 

[mutzrein]

RND & glorydaz

Obviously we read scripture from different perspectives.

Mine says that God gives man life. In fact I believe that God is the author of all things, but without first being born of God, man has no life, no belief, no faith, no righteousness.
And we differ since you believe that man can choose to be born of God. But while we differ I am content in the knowledge of what Christ achieved through calvary and am profoundly humbled by the grace of God manifest in my own life and in the lives of others whether they believe as I do or whether they believe as you. I don’t intend to do a dance around the bible, picking out verses here or there that trump yours. Nor can I stand in judgment of any other who claims Christ as Lord and Savior for it is the Spirit of God that examines the heart of man.

I am curious about one thing. You obviously adhere to the KJV and other select versions. You indicate by saying ‘that explains it’ when I mentioned the NIV that you think that that is the reason I believe as I do. In this particular debate, can you identify scripture in the NIV that you believe corrupts what the KJV states.

Thanks

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory says:

You're speaking of those who have been reconciled.

Of course I am, the world that God Loved he reconciled to himself by the death of His Son..

rom 5:



8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[Orion]

Hey, savedbygrace, I'm curious. Who is it that God has "reconciled because he loved them"? Why did he choose to NOT love others, thus having no desire to reconcile THEM?

 

[shad]

Hey, savedbygrace, I'm curious. Who is it that God has "reconciled because he loved them"? Why did he choose to NOT love others, thus having no desire to reconcile THEM?

I am not savedygrace but I would like to respond to this.

God is the Creator of whole universe, He does not desire to live with unholy people. We human are createes, we cannot tell the Creator what to do, friend.

Thanks.

 

[savedbygrace57]

orion :

Hey, savedbygrace, I'm curious. Who is it that God has "reconciled because he loved them"?

The church, His elect, His sheep..

Why did he choose to NOT love others, thus having no desire to reconcile THEM?

For His purpose..

 

[RND]

RND & glorydaz

Obviously we read scripture from different perspectives.

Obviously!

Mine says that God gives man life.

What if a man choose that he doesn't want that life? Will heaven be populated with folks that really don't want to be there?

In fact I believe that God is the author of all things, but without first being born of God, man has no life, no belief, no faith, no righteousness.

How is a man "born" of God? Do they not have to act on the measure of faith that God has given them?

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

And we differ since you believe that man can choose to be born of God.

No one said that! Neither I nor glorydaz even suggested such a thing.

But while we differ I am content in the knowledge of what Christ achieved through calvary and am profoundly humbled by the grace of God manifest in my own life and in the lives of others whether they believe as I do or whether they believe as you. I don’t intend to do a dance around the bible, picking out verses here or there that trump yours. Nor can I stand in judgment of any other who claims Christ as Lord and Savior for it is the Spirit of God that examines the heart of man.

No dancing here. I think we are both trying to point out just how flawed the Calvinistas argument of OSAS is.

I am curious about one thing. You obviously adhere to the KJV and other select versions. You indicate by saying ‘that explains it’ when I mentioned the NIV that you think that that is the reason I believe as I do. In this particular debate, can you identify scripture in the NIV that you believe corrupts what the KJV states.

How about a video or two?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 026696207#

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 145130004#

These three hours are extremely informative. Enjoy!

 

[Orion]

Hey, savedbygrace, I'm curious. Who is it that God has "reconciled because he loved them"? Why did he choose to NOT love others, thus having no desire to reconcile THEM?

I am not savedygrace but I would like to respond to this.

God is the Creator of whole universe, He does not desire to live with unholy people. We human are createes, we cannot tell the Creator what to do, friend.

Thanks.

This is for shad and savedbygrace...

I'm not following. From the verse, a few posts up, it said that "when we were enemies of god", . . . isn't that "being unholy"?

More importantly, why does god have the right to do whatever he wants [specifically hating some, thus sending them to hell for is own purpose]?

 

[Aero_Hudson]

Hey, savedbygrace, I'm curious. Who is it that God has "reconciled because he loved them"? Why did he choose to NOT love others, thus having no desire to reconcile THEM?

I am not savedygrace but I would like to respond to this.

God is the Creator of whole universe, He does not desire to live with unholy people. We human are createes, we cannot tell the Creator what to do, friend.

Thanks.

This is for shad and savedbygrace...

I'm not following. From the verse, a few posts up, it said that "when we were enemies of god", . . . isn't that "being unholy"?

More importantly, why does god have the right to do whatever he wants [specifically hating some, thus sending them to hell for is own purpose]?

Why don't you ask God? I don't think anyone here can answer that. We are not God.

My understanding is that God wants to have a relationship with all. He wants to see all accept Christ. Anyone can do this.