If God Loved everyone !

[GodspromisesRyes]

the reason that paul speaks as he does is that it is God who has ordained the elect to be such and knows who they are.

WE must walk in faith that we are of those elect but we do not know of a surety the way God does. We run to make our calling and election sure- that doesnt mean we are making ourselves elect- it means that we run so as to PROVE our FAITH that we are of the elect.

This is often times what happens when people do not consider the differnce between what we are to believe by faith and what we know for sure to be true for us.- The elect WILL stand in faith and endure until the end- they will do the works of Christ that God ordained for them to do, they WILL be conformed into the image of Jesus Christ-NOW not at the rapture. When those people have done these things it will prove by their FRUIT that they are elect.

However many learn of election and take it for granted, they are taught osas, they say " o well im elect" then they sit in their comfy chair, they dont RUN for the Lord, they dont be conformed into His image they dont walk by faith or repent or bare any fruit they live a church life, vainly not with any real inner change, they dont walk in the power of the spirit but feign in the flesh all the long saying " well im elect, nothing i could do could change that" but what they do not know is that it is not their election they are throwing away- they are PROVING by their lack of fruit and growth in the Lord that they never were elect in the first place.

WHO is elect does not change, GOD knows because HE ordained it to be so- not because of what we would do but because He just made us for His purposes in one way or the other. We only SHOW forth the will of God and the election of lack thereof that He already planned.- We are manifesting HIS ordained plan. HE did NOT ordain what we would choose to walk out.

 

[glorydaz]

I can agree with that. If we really believe, we will act like we believe.
It's what faith is all about. It isn't lip-service, it's a changed heart.

 

[francisdesales]

Whosever[/u] will...
[quote="John 3:16]For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

If your point is to agree with me, that God offers salvation to ALL men by underlining "whosoever", then it is good we agree on something...

Hey, I'm not one who has ever said God's offer was not given to all men.
He died for the sins of whole world.
All men means ALL, not just a select few.
Of course, that doesn't mean all will accept.

Which leads me to say to you again...

God desires all men to be saved.
All men are not saved.

Is this God or man's fault?

If man, then man is part of the formula of salvation. We cannot say that GOD does everything and man does nothing. God expects men to respond, giving Him the grace and the desire to seek Him out. The seeking does not COME from the man, but is dependent upon the man to come to completion - since we can reject the desire and the grace to seek God.

If God does not provide an overwhelming push to man (whom God wants to be saved), then it follows that even the formely saved man cannot utterly rely on God to provide an "overwhelming push" in all cases...

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins... Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. Hebrews 10:26, 38-39

Do not be the man who draws back from God by willfully sinning. Otherwise, you (saved or unsaved) draw back unto perdition. A condition worse than before turning to a life of Christ...

 

[savedbygrace57]

fran says:

Thanks for repeating this, and I will repeat my refutation...

You can refute all you want, truth stands forever 2 tim 2:

10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

 

[francisdesales]

fran says:

Thanks for repeating this, and I will repeat my refutation...

You can refute all you want, truth stands forever 2 tim 2:

10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Yes, the truth stands forever. Your additions remain false. Are you being purposely obstinate?

Two Timothy DOES NOT SAY ANYTHING about God sending the Christ ONLY for the elect, or that God desires only the elect to be saved... It merely says that Paul is enduring things for the sake of the elect. It does not say ANYTHING about whether salvation is offered to all men... Nor does it say anything about LIMITING the elect to those whom Paul ministers to.

If so, that leaves you out, since Paul did not minister to you...

Clearly, this is your own theology read into the Scriptures. You appear to believe that God's work of salvation was only for a select few men and women. However, it is hard to argue with the fact that Christ's salvation is as universal as Adam's sin was universal...

But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Romans 5:15-19

Clearly, "many" means ALL, since ALL men are effected by Adam's disobedience.

Here, we have definitive evidence that Christ's work is as universally applied as Adam's sin was universally applied to all men...

ALL men sin, and ALL men are offered salvation.

Five verses, repeating five times, that AS Adam's one act effected ALL of mankind, so Christ's one act effected ALL of mankind.

Unless you are suggesting that Adam's one act is MORE POWERFUL than Christ's one act...

The truth is the truth. God desires ALL men to be saved. He sent His Son for the sake of ALL men's sins. Salvation is offered to ALL men, Greek and Jew, slave and freeman, woman and man... JUST as all men are effected by the first Adam, so all men are effected by the second Adam.

It is quite simply a logical comparison, an "if, so". and there is no way out of it. If you accept the "if", then you must accept the "so".

The words in 1 Timothy say what they mean, without the need to add YOUR words to Scriptures...

 

[glorydaz]

Hey, I'm not one who has ever said God's offer was not given to all men.
He died for the sins of whole world.
All men means ALL, not just a select few.
Of course, that doesn't mean all will accept.

Which leads me to say to you again...

God desires all men to be saved.
All men are not saved.

Is this God or man's fault?

If man, then man is part of the formula of salvation. We cannot say that GOD does everything and man does nothing. God expects men to respond, giving Him the grace and the desire to seek Him out. The seeking does not COME from the man, but is dependent upon the man to come to completion - since we can reject the desire and the grace to seek God.

If God does not provide an overwhelming push to man (whom God wants to be saved), then it follows that even the formely saved man cannot utterly rely on God to provide an "overwhelming push" in all cases...

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins... Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. Hebrews 10:26, 38-39

Do not be the man who draws back from God by willfully sinning. Otherwise, you (saved or unsaved) draw back unto perdition. A condition worse than before turning to a life of Christ...

Believing is not something man decides to do. It just happens or not.
When we believe, we are called on to repent. True repentance causes God to quicken our Spirit and we are filled with His Holy Spirit. That's new birth. Our spirit now lives and will never die. We become children of God. Those who draw back before their new birth are not yet children of God.

Those who draw back are those who have never believed. Claiming is not attaining. Those who truly believe will be kept. It's the basic Gospel message. Every other religion insists man must do something in order to be saved. We, alone, come by faith without works. It's some other Gospel to claim we need to add to the work of the cross, and it's some other Gospel to claim we can lose our salvation once we become born again of God. Notice the "Ye, also have seen me, and believe not." Those are the ones who have seen the righteousness of God but are not willing to forsake all and follow after. They have not been born again from above. It's a question of belief and faith...whether it be true or counterfeit.

Jesus calls Himself the bread of life for a reason. Those who believe obtain life.

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[savedbygrace57]

fran says:

Yes, the truth stands forever. Your additions remain false

I am adding the scripture lol 2 tim 2:

10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

 

[savedbygrace57]

fran says:

The truth is the truth. God desires ALL men to be saved.

All the elect men..

 

[francisdesales]

The basis is other scripture..2 tim 2:

10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened... And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. Romans 1:18-21; 28-32

 

[francisdesales]

All the elect men..

God desires all men to be saved.

All the elect will be saved.

Quite simple. No reason to add to God's Word.

 

[francisdesales]

Believing is not something man decides to do. It just happens or not.

While I agree we cannot make ourselves believe, it doesn't just "happen". We have to be open to the possibility. If we refuse to consider the possibility, it won't happen. This is where man's free will comes in. Either "let it be done to me" or "I will not serve"...

If the former, God brings the grace of faith to the individual.

When we believe, we are called on to repent. True repentance causes God to quicken our Spirit and we are filled with His Holy Spirit. That's new birth.

True.

Our spirit now lives and will never die. We become children of God. Those who draw back before their new birth are not yet children of God.

As you have already said - and I added - we can be removed from this status. The SPIRIT doesn't die, but our relationship with THE Spirit can die. Thus, Jesus called the Prodigal Son "DEAD" when he broke his relationship with the Father. When we willfully sin, return to the vomit, we are "killing" our relationship with the Father. God allows us to choose, although He continues to provide grace to us - just as God provides grace to the man who continues to reject Him in the first place.

Those who draw back are those who have never believed.

The Bible doesn't support that. Scriptures say that false preachers "went out from us". The "they never were of us" is polemics, since then the two would contradict. OF COURSE they believed, ONCE.

WE cannot know the "real belief" of another person. We do not know deep down what a person is struggling with or their "actual" level of belief. Thus, it is judging improperly when we say a person "never believed". In my opinion, that places ALL of our salvations at risk of NEVER having been...

I know I believe now. If I fall away, I will not look back and say "I never believed in the first place". That is foolishness.

Those who truly believe will be kept.

ONLY as long as they continue to abide in Christ. You are misinterpreting "kept". He is the source of our Life in God. HE provides the impetus to remain in Him. AS we abide in Christ, we will be kept. God provides in us a strong desire to remain within Him. We learn something that cannot be taught - an experience of Jesus Christ. However, REAL experience tells us that people who "STRONGLY" believed CAN fall away. This is indisputable. What is at issue is NOT reality, but your interpretations. You need to consider looking at the reality of people falling away, people who we saw were pious Christians, had tremendous fruit, etc., had attained, according to them, eternal life - AND THEN, they turn to atheism. We have several on this very board...

Once you come back to the real world, you will realize you have to modify your INTERPRETATION. God's Word remains inerrant and infallible, but our understanding is not. When one's understanding of Scriptures do not jive with real life, we must wonder about the interpretation. I am sorry, but yours fails. Nothing personal, but that is the way it is. People who firmly believed they were saved fall away. It is in the Bible and it is in real life...

It's the basic Gospel message. Every other religion insists man must do something in order to be saved. We, alone, come by faith without works.

Works of the Law is not to be confused with "doing something". Even having faith is "doing something". It is remaining open to God - without which we cannot please God. Faith alone CANNOT save, the Bible quite clearly says that, despite your denial.

It's some other Gospel to claim we need to add to the work of the cross,

Saying that I need to be open to God's grace is not "adding" to Christ's work, it is ACCEPTING THE GIFT!

I can give you a 2010 Camaro, but what good is it if you (crazily) refuse to drive it??? Riding in it is not "adding" to the gift. It is accepting the gift, with thanksgiving - promising to do the same. You may consider red for me... ;)

some other Gospel to claim we can lose our salvation once we become born again of God.

I feel that you are forgeting that Paul does not refer to "salvation" as only a past event. We can never lose salvation = forgiveness of sins. We CAN lose salvation = eternal life. I have already given the many passages that state this.

Notice the "Ye, also have seen me, and believe not." Those are the ones who have seen the righteousness of God but are not willing to forsake all and follow after.

Those who never were open to it, such as the Pharisees. They seen but were not open to it. EVER. This is not speaking of a person who accepts Christ as their savior, claims they are saved, does good works in the Spirit, perhaps for many years, then falls away and returns to a life of adultery or whatever devious behavior they were enslaved to BEFORE being saved...

They have not been born again from above. It's a question of belief and faith...whether it be true or counterfeit.

There is not one Scripture verse that I am aware of that speaks of "false faith". It is either dead or it is alive.

Jesus calls Himself the bread of life for a reason. Those who believe obtain life.

Jesus HIMSELF is life. They attain JESUS! Haven't I made that clear enough? "LIFE" is not a status, like getting a driver's license or a diploma. It refers to a RELATIONSHIP with BEING ITSELF. God is existence, being, life. Without Him, there is no existence. Not only spiritually, but quite literally. This is HOW you "lose" eternal life. Live a life of sin. You will not have a relationship, an abiding presence, of "Eternal life", Jesus Christ. He is the way, the truth, AND THE LIFE.

Regards

 

[savedbygrace57]

fran says:

God desires all men to be saved.

Yeah all the elect job 23:

13But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

 

[savedbygrace57]

fran says:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

yeap, the non elect..for Gods wrath against the elect has been born by Jesus christ..so Gods wrath revealed from heaven can only be against the non elect..

 

[Orion]

Do the "non-elect" have a choice in their "non-electness"?

 

[Rick W]

Speaking of Job:

Job 40:7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

Orion,
My opinion of myself doesn't matter. I have faith God's judgment of me will be righteous and true. I know me and so does He. However, it's also my faith that I am forgiven through Christ and what He did on the cross.

 

[shad]

Do the "non-elect" have a choice in their "non-electness"?

No, they dont have choice. It is up to Jesus to elect them. They are the most faithful ones.

.

 

[Orion]

Shad, . . . what does that mean, . . "the most faithful ones"? Isn't it god who grants a measure of faith? So, why would a person be held accountable, if they have no choice in the matter? It's not up to them, . . . and they get punished for it?

 

[francisdesales]

Yeah all the elect job 23:

13But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

Still am not seeing the reason to add on to what the bible says...

God desires all men to be saved. God's work on the cross is just as universal as Adam's work...

romans 5:15-19...

 

[savedbygrace57]

francis:

Still am not seeing the reason to add on to what the bible says...

I am adding bible, where do you think 2 tim 2:

10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

You think I found this in the funny papers ?

 

[glorydaz]

francis:

Still am not seeing the reason to add on to what the bible says...

I am adding bible, where do you think 2 tim 2:

10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

You think I found this in the funny papers ?

God calls all men to repent, and draws them with His Word.
It therefore behooves us to preach the whole Word so they can turn to Him and partake of the glories He's prepared for those who love Him. When we paint an inaccurate picture of God...we are responsible for turning people away from Him...we're to preach the Word so they will see our loving Saviour as He is...not how some men have taught because of doctrine's according to their own understanding.