If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

[Kidron]

Yes, to be further clothed, with a glorified, immortal body that will never die.

Do you have yours Now, or do you have it by faith, which means you are hoping for it?

JLB

Ah, good change of direction., JLB.
At least now you are not pretending to use the 'hope" scripture to attempt to prove we are hoping for salvation after we die.
Well, we managed to get that one out of the way, but im certain you have many more scriptures ready to misquote or misunderstand.
Its good to see you go back and actually read a bible verse instead of a commentary.
Apparently your book of mormon needs some updating.
yes?

 

[JLB]

Ah, good change of direction., JLB.
At least now you are not pretending to use the 'hope" scripture to attempt to prove we are hoping for salvation after we die.

The salvation of your soul comes at the end of your faith, not the beginning.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:3-5,7-9

We are kept by the power of God, THROUGH FAITH... AT THE END OF YOUR FAITH, you will receive the salvation of your soul, if you continue in the faith steadfast to the end. Colossians 1:21-23


Here is what the scriptures teach us about our responsibility in this life, with the precious gift that God has given to those who believe:

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?... But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:16, 22-23

It's each person responsibility, to refrain from presenting themselves as slaves of sin.

We are called to obey the leading of the Spirit and the Apostles doctrine to live holy lives unto God, as slaves of God having our fruit unto holiness... for the wages of sin is death.

Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1

It's our responsibility to cleanse ourselves, as we work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Well, we managed to get that one out of the way, but im certain you have many more scriptures ready to misquote or misunderstand.
Its good to see you go back and actually read a bible verse instead of a commentary.
Apparently your book of mormon needs some updating.
yes?

You have yet to refute one single scripture from the many verses I have given you from the bible. NKJV

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

A person being in Him, must indeed remain in Him, to continue to receive the eternal life that flows from Him, or he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire,



However, I believe this will not be the case with you, and that you will continue steadfast in Him to the end, cleansing yourself from the things of this world, and perfecting holiness in the fear of God.


JLB

 

[Kidron]

The salvation of your soul comes at the end of your faith, not the beginning.

The salvation of your soul occurs when you are born again.
This happens on the the earth, and this is why Jesus told you in John 3 that "you must be born again".
This is why Jesus hung on the cross, then later sent the Apostles , with Paul finally coming to instruct the body of Christ about "justification by faith".
So, "Born again" happens on the earth, and at the exact second it happens a person becomes a redeemed "Son of God" and the Holy Spirit comes to live in them....which the bible calls being "in Christ" or "Christ in you the hope of Glory".

 

[Kidron]

You have yet to refute one single scripture from the many verses I have given you from the bible. NKJV

Everything ive written refutes what you are trying to teach., JLB.
you make me smile.

 

[MarkT]

The salvation of your soul occurs when you are born again.
This happens on the the earth, and this is why Jesus told you in John 3 that "you must be born again".
This is why Jesus hung on the cross, then later sent the Apostles , with Paul finally coming to instruct the body of Christ about "justification by faith".
So, "Born again" happens on the earth, and at the exact second it happens a person becomes a redeemed "Son of God" and the Holy Spirit comes to live in them....which the bible calls being "in Christ" or "Christ in you the hope of Glory".

The new creature requires food and water Kidron. Mt. 4:4 That's where your argument fails. Nobody is born a mature adult; babes need milk and the more mature need meat. Heb. 5:12-13, 1 Cor. 3:2 Jesus said when a man first believes he springs forth as a branch. Now, I see a lot of Paul said and no Jesus said, so that tells me you have rejected Jesus; indeed when a man first believes his house is swept clean. Then he searches for water seeking rest. The man finds no rest he returns to the house he came from and brings seven demons with him; so the last state is worse than the first. So in both cases we are talking about the first state and the last state; the first state meaning he is made clean. The last state, however, is different from the first state. Dead branches are cast into the fire and burned.

“When the unclean spirit has gone out of a man, he passes through waterless places seeking rest, but he finds none. 44 Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. 45 Then he goes and brings with him seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first. So shall it be also with this evil generation.” Mt. 12:43-45

As for being sealed by the Spirit I would agree if your house is built on Jesus. But as far as I can see it is built on Paul. But Paul was an apostle of Jesus Christ; his house is built on Jesus. So if Paul actually said anything about always saved, his teaching would have been from Jesus. So where did Jesus say anything about always saved? He doesn't. So how can Paul say it? Obviously you are redefining words and twisting Paul's words to make him say what you want him to say.

 

[FreeGrace]

What is Paul waiting for with perseverance?
Can you can honestly answer this question?JLB

These questions are perplexing.

These questions were already asked in #397. I answered in #400. Here they are again:

I can and have answered EVERY question honestly and Biblically.

He has a confident expectation of going to heaven. iow, he understands that being sealed with the Holy Spirit is a guarantee FOR the day of redemption.

Here, let Paul school you…

Paul clearly taught eternal security in these verses:

Eph 1:13,14 - 13InHim, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Eph 4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Cor 1:22 - who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

2 Cor 5:5 - Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

So, what has Paul taught here?

First, having believed, we are SEALED IN HIM (union with Christ) with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE, given as a PLEDGE FOR the day of redemption of God's own possession. This seal is a PLEDGE from God.

And consider this verse:
Heb 6:18 - so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us.

So, for one to accept your view of loss of salvation, 2 things are required:

1. Either prove by exegesis that Eph 1:13,144:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 do NOT teach eternal security, or

2. Accept that God DOES break His promises and pledges, which makes Him a liar. Even though Scripture SAYS that it is impossible for God to lie.

Please feel free to refute this with proper exegesis.

So, what have I missed in my answer to your questions? Simply repeating your questions is not helpful.

 

[FreeGrace]

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

The wages of sin is death!
The gift of God is eternal life.
Whose slave you are, determines your outcome.
Whoever you present yourself to obey.
It's your choice what you will do with the gift of God, which is relationship (knowing) Him.JLB

Understanding the difference between relationship, which is permanent, from fellowship, which is dynamic is crucial to understanding Scripture.

For example, your parents are permanently your parents. Neither you, nor them, nor anyone else can undo that relationship. But fellowship with your parents may or may not exist. It is dynamic and changes according to variables.

Those who do not grasp this difference are destined to misunderstand much Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

No faith = No salvation. What can be lost is your faith, for we were saved by faith. JLB

Correction: we are saved by GRACE, which is THROUGH faith. We are not saved by faith. THROUGH faith is the Biblical view. Eph 2:8

Where is the clear teaching that if one loses their faith, they lose salvation? You've never provided any verse from the Bible that says so.

Instead of loss of salvation, the Bible teaches that "no person can snatch us out of God's hand". If the believer qualifies as being a person, then even oneself cannot remove himself from God's hand.

Also, the Bible teaches that the believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit FOR the day of redemption, which is a promise and guarantee. And you've seen the verses that teach this.

If my view of Eph 2:8 is incorrect, please explain how and why it is.

 

[FreeGrace]

Irrevocable means the call and the gifts can not be cancelled. So Paul is saying God will keep his end of the covenant.

Where did Paul define any covenant as a gift of God? In any of his epistles?

 

[FreeGrace]

We are given relationship with God, (eternal life), which is to say reconciled to Him, through our faith in Jesus Christ... If we continue in that faith!

Where does the Bible teach that this relationship is based on continuing in faith? You've never provided any such verses.

And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, Colossians 1:21-23

Where are the words about loss of salvation here? The condition of "if you continue in the faith" is clearly defined; God will present the believer holy, blameless and above reproach in His sight.

This isn't about staying saved as some might like to assume. iow, unless one does continue in the faith, we will NOT be presented in His sight as holy, blameless and above reproach.

The hope of the Gospel is the salvation of our soul.

Some may hope to be saved.

I KNOW I'm saved eternally. Because the Bible tells me so.

The hope of the Gospel is becoming a son of God…

Having given the 2 verses that indicate WHEN one becomes a son of God, there is no excuse for your statement.

 

[FreeGrace]

...and growing in grace.JLB

Those who claim that salvation can be lost do not understand anything about God's grace. We are saved by grace, according to Eph 2:8.

Those God saves by grace He keeps by grace. They go together.

 

[MarkT]

Where did Paul define any covenant as a gift of God? In any of his epistles?

Your question doesn't make sense.

 

[JLB]

The salvation of your soul occurs when you are born again.
This happens on the the earth, and this is why Jesus told you in John 3 that "you must be born again".
This is why Jesus hung on the cross, then later sent the Apostles , with Paul finally coming to instruct the body of Christ about "justification by faith".
So, "Born again" happens on the earth, and at the exact second it happens a person becomes a redeemed "Son of God" and the Holy Spirit comes to live in them....which the bible calls being "in Christ" or "Christ in you the hope of Glory".

Yes agreed, being born of God or born again happens now on the earth.

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him...
And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
1 John 5:1, 11-13


As long as you continue to abide in Him, you continue to have eternal life.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I KNOW I'm saved eternally. Because the Bible tells me so.

I know I'm saved today, because His Spirit bears witness with my Spirit, that I'm a child of God.

However, today is not the end of my faith.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
Hebrews 3:12-14


JLB

 

[MarkT]

The calling and the gifts belong to the covenant. The covenant itself isn't the gift. We do this, we receive that. That's the covenant and the promise. Those who are called will receive the gifts.

 

[FreeGrace]

I know I'm saved today, because His Spirit bears witness with my Spirit, that I'm a child of God.

However, today is not the end of my faith.

Where is Scriptural evidence that if one loses their faith, they lose their salvation???????

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
Hebrews 3:12-14JLB

Why would anyone think this verse supports the theory that loss of faith results in loss of salvation?? I do not see anything in these 3 verses that indicates that idea?

Where does the Bible say that becoming partners of Christ is salvation? Research the Greek word for "partakers". It has nothing to do with being saved.

I've given the verses about the sealing with the Holy Spirit, none of which you've addressed. Why is that?

 

[FreeGrace]

Your question doesn't make sense.

It's really quite straight forward. Here it is again:

"Where did Paul define any covenant as a gift of God? In any of his epistles?"

In a previous post of yours, a comment was made regarding Rom 11:29 and God's gifts being irrevocable. It was your opinion that the "gifts" noted in 11:29 refer to a covenant of God to Israel.

So, where does Paul define any covenant as a gift of God? That is the issue. Apparently you think the gift of 11:29 refers to some covenant. But where is any covenant defined or called a gift?

 

[FreeGrace]

The calling and the gifts belong to the covenant.

Please provide Scriptural support to support this claim. If it's true, the Bible will support the claim. If not true, the Bible won't. Please provide support from the Bible.

The covenant itself isn't the gift. We do this, we receive that. That's the covenant and the promise. Those who are called will receive the gifts.

Where is that found in Scripture? Seems a lot of stuff is being made up.

If the covenant isn't a gift, then what SPECIFICALLY is Paul referring to in 11:29? My view is what he already defined as gifts in Romans (context, you know). Justification and eternal life were specifically defined as gifts.

So, if these aren't what Paul was referring to in 11:29, please, please, please show where in Romans Paul was referring to something else. You've admitted 'gift' doesn't refer to covenants. So what then?

 

[JLB]

Why would anyone think this verse supports the theory that loss of faith results in loss of salvation?? I do not see anything in these 3 verses that indicates that idea?

I know you don't see.... It's called blindness.

Peter warns us of this very thing.

But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
2 Peter 1:5-9


JLB