If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

[MarkT]

The Scripture says, if they repent, saying, 'We have sinned and have acted wickedly', it goes on, 'if they repent with all their mind and with all their heart' 1Kings 8:48 Therefore the meaning of the English word is true because we are talking about man and sin.

However if we are talking about God, we can not say God should repent. God is not man. God does not sin. God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should repent. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfil it? Numbers 23:19

So if we are talking about God, then the word repent as it is used in 1 Chronicles 21:15, for example, doesn't carry the same connotation of expressing remorse about one's wrong doing or sin. The word here can mean he rethought or he reconsidered his decision.

 

[MarkT]

Because Faith does not save you.
God saves you, based on Jesus dying for you, in your place.
So, this death of Jesus has been credited to you, and what has happened is that you've been perfected, justified, sanctified, and redeemed.
God has literally purchased you with the Blood of Jesus, and that is why the bible tells you that you are "bought with a Price"., and that prices is the eternal blood of Jesus.....as this blood is saving people today even tho He shed it 2000 years ago.
And why is that?....Its because it God's blood that has saved you, and as God is eternal His salvation by His blood, is eternal., and this is why you are kept by this Blood, and not your works, as your works are temporary and the Blood of God is eternal.
God has literally taken the sinlessness of Christ and credited it to you, and has taken you sins and your sin debt and killed Christ with it.

God gives us faith to know his Son. 1 John 5:20. You say it's not faith, it is God. I say, Right. It is God who gives us faith. Circular reasoning getting us nowhere. Justified by his blood? Right. Romans 5:9 He paid for our sins. Right. So now we can put on the garment of righteousness Isa. 61:10 which comes by faith.

So if a man falls into unbelief and he loses his faith, God will ask him, 'How did you get in without a wedding garment? “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment; and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and cast him into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.’ For many are called, but few are chosen.” Mt. 22:11-14

 

[FreeGrace]

The Greek NT was written in Greek. That's not the same as saying the NT was written in Greek.

In fact, that IS the same thing. Your statement is just stunning! The NT was written in Greek. Which is why we call it the Greek NT. There are various English NTs, German NTs, etc, etc.

In fact there was no need for a Greek NT until after the Greeks received the gospel.

What in the world does this have to do with anything??

It is generally agreed that Jesus and his disciples primarily spoke Aramaic, the common language of Judea in the first century AD, most likely a Galilean dialect distinguishable from that of Jerusalem.[1] The towns of Nazareth and Capernaum in Galilee, where Jesus spent most of his time, were Aramaic-speaking communities.[2] Wikipedia

Actually, most of them spoke Koine Greek as well. The word "Koine" means "common".

In Judea the gospels would have been written in Aramaic.

What proof can be provided to back up this stunning claim?? I never go with assumptions, presumptions, or make believe.

Afterwards the gospels were translated into Greek

If this were true, there would be evidence for it. Where is it?

 

[JLB]

That's what I've been talking about; those who BECOME sons of God. Which has nothing to do with being created and called a son of God. Totally different.

Who creates the resurrected immortal body that will never die, by which if you obtain you are declared a son of God, at the resurrection?

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Who creates the resurrected immortal body that will never die, by which if you obtain you are declared a son of God, at the resurrection?JLB

The question is erroneous. Those who believe HAVE eternal life, per Jesus in Jn 5:24 and ARE sons of God, per Paul in Gal 3:26.

If your view about becoming a son of God at resurrection were correct, then Paul flat out lied in Gal 3:26, which says:
"For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus."

Please notice the PRESENT TENSE "are". Not "will become later".

 

[JLB]

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus."

Yes as I said and clarified, sons of God through faith, clearly means by definition, that we have the hope of becoming sons of God.

If we have faith, then we are hoping for salvation... We have the hope of becoming sons of God. John 1:12

Faith is the substance of things hoped for...

So as the bible teaches, there were some angels, who are sons of God, that were cast down to hell, for their disobedience concerning sexual immorality.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;
2 Peter 2:4-5


The point being that sons of God are not exempt from being cast into hell.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Gal 3:26 says "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.""

Yes as I said and clarified, sons of God through faith, clearly means by definition, that we have the hope of becoming sons of God.

There is no use ignoring the PRESENT TENSE of 'ARE'. What is clear from Scripture is that those who believe in Christ HAVE BECOME sons of God.

If we have faith, then we are hoping for salvation... We have the hope of becoming sons of God. John 1:12

Please direct me to the exact place in John 1:12 where one will find the word "hope".

Jn 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

Oh, right. There is no "hope" in that verse. So your opinion is only that. And one not based on the Bible.

The real question here is why anyone would flat out reject the clear wording of Gal 3:26.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for…

How does this verse (Heb 11:1) help your view? The word for "hoped for" is: 'elpis', which means:
expectation
trust
confidence

Instead of the current English usage of "I hope so", meaning "I sure wish for…" it means "I KNOW so".

Confident expectation is how to understand the word translated "hope" in the NT.

So as the bible teaches, there were some angels, who are sons of God, that were cast down to hell, for their disobedience concerning sexual immorality.

They weren't saved and lost it. So there is no relevance here.

The point being that sons of God are not exempt from being cast into hell.

No, the point is continuously being missed. I'm using "sons of God' as those who have become a son through faith, as NONE of the angels, nor even Adam was.

So your examples of Adam and angels only illustrate your error.

 

[Kidron]

Yes as I said and clarified, sons of God through faith, clearly means by definition, that we have the hope of becoming sons of God.


JLB

Being Born Again, is not a hope, its a fact of Salvation that HAS occurred.

1 John 3:2 """Beloved, NOW are we the sons of God""""

See that word NOW?
Understand the definition? ??

Let me try it in a sentence for you, JLB.

JLB.....Sons of God dont wait in the future for a NOW.
They are Sons of God NOW.
They are born again NOW.
That would be a "Christian".

1 John 3:2 """Beloved, NOW are we the sons of God""""

1 John 3:2 """Beloved, NOW are we the sons of God""""

1 John 3:2 """Beloved, NOW are we the sons of God""""

 

[JLB]

Being Born Again, is not a hope, its a fact of Salvation that HAS occurred.

Being born again is a reference to being born of God, which means we have the right to become sons of God, and be as the angels.

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:12-13


Now, we are sons of God by faith.

We we attain that age and the resurrection of the dead, we will be as the angels, being sons of God.

But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36


Sons of God are led by the Spirit.


13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Romans 8:13-14


When Jesus appears, we shall be like Him.

1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.

2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
1 John 3:1-3

Are you like Jesus Now?
Are you like the angels Now?
Do you have an immortal body that will never die, Now?


If you answered No to these questions, then you have the hope of becoming a son of God in reality... for now we are sons of God by faith in Jesus Christ.


1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2


You have to make it to the finish line... for the end of your faith is the salvation of your soul. 1 Peter 1:9


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Being born again is a reference to being born of God, which means we have the right to become sons of God, and be as the angels.

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:12-13


Now, we are sons of God by faith.

We we attain that age and the resurrection of the dead, we will be as the angels, being sons of God.

But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36


Sons of God are led by the Spirit.


13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Romans 8:13-14


When Jesus appears, we shall be like Him.

1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.

2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
1 John 3:1-3

Are you like Jesus Now?
Are you like the angels Now?
Do you have an immortal body that will never die, Now?


If you answered No to these questions, then you have the hope of becoming a son of God in reality... for now we are sons of God by faith in Jesus Christ.


1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2


You have to make it to the finish line... for the end of your faith is the salvation of your soul. 1 Peter 1:9
JLB

It is quite clear that the word "now" is not understood by you.

Might as well get a pair of scissors and just cut out all the places where one would find the word "now".

Oh, and do it now.

 

[JLB]

It is quite clear that the word "now" is not understood by you.

Might as well get a pair of scissors and just cut out all the places where one would find the word "now".

Oh, and do it now.

Yes we were (past tense) saved by Grace, through faith...

The main problem you seem to have is understanding what faith means.

Faith is the substance... Not the tangible reality.

Faith is the substance of the thing you are hoping for....

The evidence of thing not seen.

We who are saved by faith now, have the hope of sonship and of receiving our immortal bodies.

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
1 John 3:1-3

Everyone who has this hope, purifies himself.., just as He is pure.

Did you get that part?

Everyone who has this hope, purifies himself.., just as He is pure.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes we were (past tense) saved by Grace, through faith...

The main problem you seem to have is understanding what faith means.

Faith is the substance... Not the tangible reality.

Faith is the substance of the thing you are hoping for....

The evidence of thing not seen.

We who are saved by faith now, have the hope of sonship and of receiving our immortal bodies.

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
1 John 3:1-3

Everyone who has this hope, purifies himself.., just as He is pure.

Did you get that part?

Everyone who has this hope, purifies himself.., just as He is pure.


JLB

It is still quite clear about your misunderstanding of the word "now".

 

[Kidron]

Being born again is a reference to being born of God, which means we have the right to become sons of God, and be as the angels.

Let me tell you about me.
Ive already been translated from darkness to light., and im already born again., and i am NOW a Son of God.
Im not waiting to become one, as "Christ in me the Hope of Glory" has THIS SON OF GOD ""seated in heavenly places right now".

so, JLB, you can wait all you like, but i dont have to wait.
im already "in Christ".
The only thing im waiting for is my resurrection body and my mansion..."we shall be changed in the twinkling of an eyes"...."i go to prepare a place for you"..

So, as i said..... 1 John 3:2 """Beloved, NOW are we the sons of God""""

 

[JLB]

so, JLB, you can wait all you like, but i dont have to wait.
im already "in Christ".

Amen. I hope and pray that you remain in Christ, and don't wind up like the example Jesus gave...

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

In this example, Jesus teaches That there will be those who are in Him for awhile, then they will be removed and gathered up and throw into the fire.

Remember what this same John taught us in 1 John 3 -

And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. 1 John 3:3

You yourself get to do the work of purifying yourself and cleansing yourself from being a vessel of dishonor.

For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

If you by the Spirit, put to death the deeds of the flesh, you will live...

Not somebody else... You!

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Amen. I hope and pray that you remain in Christ

There is nothing in Scripture to indicate that one can be removed from Christ. When a person believes in Christ, they are "in union" with Him, sealed with the Holy Spirit. Eph 1:13,14

These verses, along with Eph 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 tell us that those sealed are promised FOR the day of redemption.

Does God keep His promises, or not? Yes, He does, because He cannot lie. Therefore, anyone who has been sealed with the Holy Spirit, is promised FOR the day of redemption.

and don't wind up like the example Jesus gave...

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Abiding in Christ is different than union with Christ. To "abide" refes to fellowship, not relationship.

If Jesus meant that abiding meant salvation, and one may not abide, then Paul's teaching in Eph 1:13,14, 4:30 and 2 cor 1:22 and 5:5 is contrary to Jesus' teaching. Obviously Jesus didn't mean what you're claiming He meant.

Unless someone can exegete Eph 1:13,14, 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 and prove from that exegesis that PLaul was not teaching eternal security, there is no reason to believe that one's salvation can be lost.

 

[JLB]

And to remember; God's gifts are irrevocable!!

Yes. God's gifts are given without regret, since that is what the word means.

 

[JLB]

It is still quite clear about your misunderstanding of the word "now".

Only a person who had clearly shown that they don't understand the principle of faith, does not understand that we who are saved by faith now, have the hope of salvation.

Here's what Paul says... [edited by WIP]

For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25

What is Paul waiting for with perseverance?

Can you can honestly answer this question?


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

What you do with your free gift, determined where you will spend eternity.

Why would one make such a statement that has no support from Scripture??

When one HAS the free gift of eternal life, there is nothing they can do with it. It's theirs for eternity.

There is no Scripture that indicates that one can discard or give away or lose that precious gift.

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness. Romans 6:16

This verse isn't about salvation but spiritual growth.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes. God's gifts are given without regret, since that is what the word means.

And all the real Greek scholars understand that for God to be without regret means that when He gives this gift, it isn't returned.

 

[FreeGrace]

Only a person who had clearly shown that they don't understand the principle of faith, does not understand that we who are saved by faith now, have the hope of salvation.

I've explained the meaning of "hope" as found in Scripture. It means confident expectation. Like a guarantee. Not something wished for as used in English today.

Further, 2 verses have been given that refutes your misunderstanding;
John 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

Gal 3:26 - For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

I cannot imagine why anyone would reject these clear verses.

Here's what Paul says... [edited by WIP]

He already did. Gal 3:26 is quite clear. Now really means now. Not later.

What is Paul waiting for with perseverance?

Can you can honestly answer this question?JLB

I can and have answered EVERY question honestly and Biblically.

He has a confident expectation of going to heaven. iow, he understands that being sealed with the Holy Spirit is a guarantee FOR the day of redemption.

Here, let Paul school you…

Paul clearly taught eternal security in these verses:

Eph 1:13,14 - 13InHim, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Eph 4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Cor 1:22 - who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

2 Cor 5:5 - Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

So, what has Paul taught here?

First, having believed, we are SEALED IN HIM (union with Christ) with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE, given as a PLEDGE FOR the day of redemption of God's own possession. This seal is a PLEDGE from God.

And consider this verse:
Heb 6:18 - so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us.

So, for one to accept your view of loss of salvation, 2 things are required:

1. Either prove by exegesis that Eph 1:13,14 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 do NOT teach eternal security, or

2. Accept that God DOES break His promises and pledges, which makes Him a liar. Even though Scripture SAYS that it is impossible for God to lie.

Please feel free to refute this with proper exegesis.