If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

[MarkT]

[Edited for not following forum guidelines. Please post Scriptural support for your view. WIP]


[Edited for not following forum guidelines. Please post Scriptural support for your view. WIP]


Could you specify exactly what you mean by gifts that pertain to the new covenant? And provide Scripture to support your view about them being gifts.


Actually, he IS talking about the gifts EXACTLY in 11:29. Your statement makes no sense.


[Edited for not following forum guidelines. Please post Scriptural support for your view. WIP]

The right of sonship and inheritance. The gifts of the Spirit 1 Cor. 12:8-10, eternal life, the kingdom. Everything God promises to those who are called for his purpose, Rom. 8:28 through faith in Jesus Christ.

His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature. 2 Pet. 1:2-4

The subject isn't gifts. The subject is natural Israel's inherent right to the gifts. (the gifts and the blessings were promised to Abraham and his descendants/natural Israel). So he is not talking about the gifts per se. He's talking about their acceptance. Rom. 11:15 Because they are beloved, they will be accepted, if they show mercy Rom. 11:30-32 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace]

The subject isn't gifts.

How can one say that regarding Rom 11:29? The point of that verse is that God's gifts and calling are irrevocable, so the subject is BOTH God's gifts and God's calling. BOTH of which are irrevocable.

The subject is natural Israel's inherent right to the gifts.

Where would one find any evidence from Scripture about anyone having "inherent rights to the gifts"? No one has any inherent right to gifts. God's gifts are based on God's plans.

There is no such thing as inherent right to God's gifts. And God's gifts and calling aren't limited to Israel, but are available to all who believe in His Son.

(the gifts and the blessings were promised to Abraham and his descendants/natural Israel).

Please provide any verse or passage where gifts were promised to Abraham and his descendants.

So he is not talking about the gifts per se. He's talking about their acceptance. Rom. 11:15 Because they are beloved, they will be accepted, if they show mercy Rom. 11:30-32 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

What does acceptance of the gifts have to do with the fact that God's gifts are irrevocable?

Of course those who never accepted the gifts have them. But I don't understand your point.

And Paul most certainly IS talking about God's gifts, and specifically, since he himself connected the dots by describing the gifts of God that are irrevocable.

Otherwise, why mention both justification in Rom 3:24, 5;15,16,17 and eternal life in Rom 6:23 as gifts if he didn't refer to them in Rom 11:29?

When Paul mentioned gifts of God in Rom 11:29, one only has to look back to see what he meant by that. And he specifically told us what he meant by gifts of God in those passages just noted: justification and eternal life.

Let's cut to the chase. Do you believe that the gift of God being eternal life (Rom 6:23) is irrevocable, or not?

 

[JLB]

Let's cut to the chase. Do you believe that the gift of God being eternal life (Rom 6:23) is irrevocable, or not?

When gift ["charisma"] is used in the singular, it does refer to eternal life.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Unfortunately for your "OSAS" doctrine, the wages of sin is death. Paul writes this to Christians.

If you have a scripture that references "gifts", plural as referring to eternal life, then please share it.

The gift we are given is Jesus Christ.

Knowing Him is Eternal life.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
John 17:3


JLB

 

[MarkT]

How can one say that regarding Rom 11:29? The point of that verse is that God's gifts and calling are irrevocable, so the subject is BOTH God's gifts and God's calling. BOTH of which are irrevocable.

Where would one find any evidence from Scripture about anyone having "inherent rights to the gifts"? No one has any inherent right to gifts. God's gifts are based on God's plans.

The LORD said he would bless Abraham and his descendants. That would include Israel and his descendants. Moses said, “You are the sons of the Lord your God; you shall not cut yourselves or make any baldness on your foreheads for the dead. For you are a people holy to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for his own possession, out of all the peoples that are on the face of the earth. Deut. 14:1

Speaking of Israel, Paul said, "They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises Romans 9:4

So Israel had the right of sonship and the right to inherit the blessings and the gifts.

There is no such thing as inherent right to God's gifts. And God's gifts and calling aren't limited to Israel, but are available to all who believe in His Son.

Please provide any verse or passage where gifts were promised to Abraham and his descendants.

Galatians 3:14
that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Galatians 3:18
For if the inheritance is by the law, it is no longer by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

Galatians 3:29
And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

What does acceptance of the gifts have to do with the fact that God's gifts are irrevocable?

Sorry. I should have made it clear I was talking about natural Israel and their acceptance into the kingdom, specifically the part that was hardened, and their acceptance into the kingdom.

Paul writes they can be grafted back into the vine provided they believe. Rom.11:23

Of course those who never accepted the gifts have them. But I don't understand your point.

And Paul most certainly IS talking about God's gifts, and specifically, since he himself connected the dots by describing the gifts of God that are irrevocable.

Otherwise, why mention both justification in Rom 3:24, 5;15,16,17 and eternal life in Rom 6:23 as gifts if he didn't refer to them in Rom 11:29?

When Paul mentioned gifts of God in Rom 11:29, one only has to look back to see what he meant by that. And he specifically told us what he meant by gifts of God in those passages just noted: justification and eternal life.

Let's cut to the chase. Do you believe that the gift of God being eternal life (Rom 6:23) is irrevocable, or not?

I believe what it says in Romans 6:23. I also believe what it says in Romans 11:29

What do you mean by irrevocable?

 

[FreeGrace]

When gift ["charisma"] is used in the singular, it does refer to eternal life.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

No such rule. Paul connected all the dots here. He also described justification as a gift in Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17. so when Paul wrote that the gifts of God are irrevocable, he was including BOTH justification and eternal life.

Unfortunately for your "OSAS" doctrine, the wages of sin is death. Paul writes this to Christians.

You've misunderstood what he wrote then. Christ died for all sins. People are born spiritually dead already. Christ removed the sin barrier that separated mankind from God.

Sins are forgiven (Acts 10:43) and justification (Rom 5:1) are based on faith in Christ. As a result of faith in Christ, one is declared justified (Rom 3:20-30) and given eternal life (Jn 6:40). And these are irrevocable gifts.

If you have a scripture that references "gifts", plural as referring to eternal life, then please share it.

See above.

The gift we are given is Jesus Christ.

If there is a verse that describes Jesus Christ as a gift, please share it.

Knowing Him is Eternal life.

And eternal life is an irrevocable gift.

 

[FreeGrace]

The LORD said he would bless Abraham and his descendants. That would include Israel and his descendants. Moses said, “You are the sons of the Lord your God; you shall not cut yourselves or make any baldness on your foreheads for the dead. For you are a people holy to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for his own possession, out of all the peoples that are on the face of the earth. Deut. 14:1

This is all true, yes. But where in Scripture is any of this referred to as a gift?

Speaking of Israel, Paul said, "They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises Romans 9:4

Again, true. But where is any of these things described as gifts of God?

So Israel had the right of sonship and the right to inherit the blessings and the gifts.

The only things described as gifts of God in Romans are these:
1. spiritual gifts in 1:11
2. justification in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17
3. eternal life in 6:23

All of these are irrevocable gifts.

Galatians 3:14
that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Galatians 3:18
For if the inheritance is by the law, it is no longer by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

Galatians 3:29
And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

I'm looking for the word "gifts" but don't see it in any of these verses. Where do you see it?

I believe what it says in Romans 6:23. I also believe what it says in Romans 11:29

Then you should also believe that eternal life, which is a gift of God, is irrevocable.

What do you mean by irrevocable?

What the Bible means: "not to be repented of". Which, by implication, means to be irrevocable.

Unless someone can demonstrate how taking back a gift doesn't involve repentance, they have no point.

The point of Rom 11:29 is that when God gives a gift (justification, eternal life, spiritual gifts), He doesn't change His mind and take them back. That's what "not to be repented of" means.

To take back a gift demonstrates regret.

This is from Thayer's:
ametamelētos
1) not repentant of, unregretted

 

[JLB]

I'm looking for the word "gifts" but don't see it in any of these verses. Where do you see it?

I'm looking for the word gift [singular] as used in conjunction with eternal life in Romans 11:29, but don't see it.

Where do you see it.

I see it in Romans 6:23, along with the phrase... the wages of sin is death.

This is what James also says.

14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:14-15


In both scriptures, it is Christians who are addressed and warned of the reward or wages or the end result of "full grown" mature sin... eternal death.


JLB

 

[JLB]

No such rule. Paul connected all the dots here. He also described justification as a gift in Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17. so when Paul wrote that the gifts of God are irrevocable, he was including BOTH justification and eternal life.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

The gift of God is "eternal life in Christ".

As long as you are connected to Christ, you are connected to the eternal life in Christ.


You are trying to say that "gifts" and calling are the same as Gift of God is eternal life in Christ.

That's like saying all gifts are Christmas gifts.

The gift of eternal life in Christ, is just that; Jesus Christ.

He is the gift.

Apart from Him, there is no eternal life.

Just as there is no life to the branch that becomes disconnected from the Vine.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; John 15:2

OSAS says it's impossible to be removed from Christ.

Jesus says otherwise.

Your only chance to prove your OSAS doctrine is biblical, is to provide a scripture that shows a person continues to have eternal life, even after the person has been removed from being in Christ.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I'm looking for the word gift [singular] as used in conjunction with eternal life in Romans 11:29, but don't see it.

I explained why Paul used the plural for 'gift' in Rom 11:29. Because he previously described justification as a gift. And one puts two 'singulars' together, they become a plural.

I see it in Romans 6:23, along with the phrase... the wages of sin is death.

What does the wages of sin being death have to do with eternal life? Please explain.

This is what James also says.

14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:14-15

Discernment from the Holy Spirit shows that this is about being out of fellowship with God when one sins. Death in the temporal sense. When fellowship is severed, it is referred to as death. But it isn't eternal death.

When believers sin, they both grieve (Eph 5:18) and quench (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit. This results in loss of fellowship, or temporal death.

In both scriptures, it is Christians who are addressed and warned of the reward or wages or the end result of "full grown" mature sin... eternal death.JLB

There's the error; mistaking James' words to mean "eternal death".

Where do you find the word "eternal" anywhere in James' book?

I suggest you use your own standards you demand of others to yourself and your own posts.

 

[FreeGrace]

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Here's how this works, since you've indicated that you don't know.

Everyone is born DEAD in sins (Eph 2:1, Col 2:13). But, WHEN one believes in Christ, they receive the gift (Rom 6:23) of eternal life (Jn 6:40). And this gift, alone with the gift of justification (Rom 3;24, 5:15,16,17) are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

You've never refuted any of this. Disagreement isn't refutation. You must show that my use of these verses don't mean how I'm using them.

I've shown, otoh, how the verses you've provided, don't mean what you think they mean.

The gift of God is "eternal life in Christ". As long as you are connected to Christ, you are connected to the eternal life in Christ.

Except your claim here cannot be supported by Scripture. It's just another unsubstantiated opinion. If it were true, please cite the verse that says that we are connected to eternal life ONLY WHEN connected to Christ.

Or better, what verse even speaks about being "connected" to Christ. Where does that word exist in Scripture/

You are trying to say that "gifts" and calling are the same as Gift of God is eternal life in Christ.

No, I'm not. Paul already DID THAT. I'm just pointing out what Paul SAID.

That's like saying all gifts are Christmas gifts.

This is a silly statement. All of God's gifts are irrevocable. Paul SAID so.

The gift of eternal life in Christ, is just that; Jesus Christ.

He is the gift.

Apart from Him, there is no eternal life.

How many times would you like to see the verses about how one receives eternal life?

Just as there is no life to the branch that becomes disconnected from the Vine.

What verse or verses says that there is "no life"?

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; John 15:2

Why should one think that this means eternal death? On what basis?

OSAS says it's impossible to be removed from Christ. Jesus says otherwise.

Please support this with evidence from Scripture. Where Jesus said what the Holy Spirit seals can be removed.

Either by God Himself, or by the believer himself.

Your only chance to prove your OSAS doctrine is biblical, is to provide a scripture that shows a person continues to have eternal life, even after the person has been removed from being in Christ.JLB

There are no verses that teach or say that one can be removed from being in Christ.

Fellowship can be lost through sin. But that isn't loss of salvation.

You've ignored the issue of fellowship and loss of fellowship. The parable of the prodigal son clearly shows the issue.

Your view cannot handle this issue, which is why it's been ignored consistently.

 

[FreeGrace]

For those of the conditional security mentality, and who claim that the sealing with the Holy Spirit CAN be broken in an attempt to "refute" eternal security, consider this.

From Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5, we read that the believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE, which is a GUARANTEE for the day of redemption.

Now, the ONLY TIME the seal could be considered broken is 'for the day of redemption'.

How do we know that? Because of the way Paul describes this sealing; for the day of redemption. And he said the sealing is a PROMISE and a GUARANTEE.

Unless those of the conditional security ilk want to argue that God breaks His promises, there is no other time the seal would or could be broken.

When is the day of redemption? When believers receive their resurrection bodies, and won't need the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Now, that's what the conditional security ilk must refute in order to keep their view viable.

 

[JLB]

Except your claim here cannot be supported by Scripture. It's just another unsubstantiated opinion. If it were true, please cite the verse that says that we are connected to eternal life ONLY WHEN connected to Christ.

Here is the scripture:

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


JLB

 

[JLB]

Now, the ONLY TIME the seal could be considered broken is 'for the day of redemption'.

The seal is not a seal as on a container, but a seal of approval as a signet ring makes from a king.

It's an identifying mark of authentication, for those who believe.

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:13-14

The Holy Spirit is the seal of acceptance given to those who believe.

Those who turn away from God in unbelief, do not have this promise, as they have gone back to being unbelievers.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Here is the scripture:

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6JLB

I don't find the words "eternal life", or "loss of eternal life", or "loss of salvation", or "eternal death" in this verse. So why would anyone think the verse is about loss of salvation, or experiencing eternal death?

In fact, it isn't taught anywhere in Scripture. Which is why I don't believe that.

What I do believe is that God's gifts, being justification and eternal life, are irrevocable. Rom 3:24, 6:23, 11:29.

 

[FreeGrace]

The seal is not a seal as on a container, but a seal of approval as a signet ring makes from a king.

OK. And this seal is a PROMISE or a GUARANTEE for the day of redemption.

It's an identifying mark of authentication, for those who believe.

And it's a PROMISE, a GUARANTEE for the day of redemption.

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:13-14

There it is; clear as crystal.

The Holy Spirit is the seal of acceptance given to those who believe.

Sure is!

Those who turn away from God in unbelief, do not have this promise, as they have gone back to being unbelievers.JLB

Gonna have to do much better than insert an opinion here.

If one who only believes for a while and then God breaks the seal of approval when they cease to believe, then where are the verses about God breaking His promise and guarantee and breaking this seal?? HUH?

Since there aren't any such verses, there is no reason to accept your opinion about those who only believe for a while.

Even when Jesus noted that some do only believe for a while, no where did He even hint that such a one would lose their salvation.

 

[smaller]

Perform for salvation is legalism at it's finest.

Galatians 3:3
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

In order to be made Perfect we have to be MADE so, Directly By Jesus and His Power, not ours.

There is no other way to extract a performance on our end of things. It was never in our hands to do so to start with.

Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Our Promise is to be subdued. The body, the flesh however, will resist that change and the Promise, because it is in fact "contrary" to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17.

There is no way to drag or perform the contrary through the door of Heaven. It won't and can't happen. It's guaranteed not to happen.

Our difficulties reside in our occupations, in the meantime. Works salvation is not capable of doing what needs to be done or what it proposes. What is "contrary" is simply not going to make it by any stretch of works or imaginations. Best to recognize it for what it is.

Whatever "work" is done by any believer is done with the contrariness of the flesh still intact. That does make our "works" just as the prophet proposed. Filthy rags.

 

[MarkT]

This is all true, yes. But where in Scripture is any of this referred to as a gift?


Again, true. But where is any of these things described as gifts of God?


The only things described as gifts of God in Romans are these:
1. spiritual gifts in 1:11
2. justification in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17
3. eternal life in 6:23

All of these are irrevocable gifts.


I'm looking for the word "gifts" but don't see it in any of these verses. Where do you see it?


Then you should also believe that eternal life, which is a gift of God, is irrevocable.


What the Bible means: "not to be repented of". Which, by implication, means to be irrevocable.

Unless someone can demonstrate how taking back a gift doesn't involve repentance, they have no point.

The point of Rom 11:29 is that when God gives a gift (justification, eternal life, spiritual gifts), He doesn't change His mind and take them back. That's what "not to be repented of" means.

To take back a gift demonstrates regret.

This is from Thayer's:
ametamelētos
1) not repentant of, unregretted

The point of Rom. 11:29 is not when he gives a gift, but who gets the gift. An heir is a son who will receive his father's possessions. Eternal life is something our Father possesses. It's something his sons inherit. Rom. 8:17 Eph. 3:6

The point of Rom. 11:29 is to say God did not disinherit/reject his people Israel. Rom. 11:1

Paul reassures Israel, his kinsmen by race, that the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable (they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers Rom. 11:28), and that the part of Israel that was hardened/rejected to let the Gentiles in, can be grafted back into the olive tree, so all Israel will be saved. Rom. 11: 24-26

 

[JLB]

OK. And this seal is a PROMISE or a GUARANTEE for the day of redemption.


And it's a PROMISE, a GUARANTEE for the day of redemption.


There it is; clear as crystal.


Sure is!


Gonna have to do much better than insert an opinion here.

If one who only believes for a while and then God breaks the seal of approval when they cease to believe, then where are the verses about God breaking His promise and guarantee and breaking this seal?? HUH?

Since there aren't any such verses, there is no reason to accept your opinion about those who only believe for a while.

Even when Jesus noted that some do only believe for a while, no where did He even hint that such a one would lose their salvation.

The seal is the Holy Spirit, which is the promise of the Father.

This is for believers, not for those who depart from, or turn away from, or fall away from Christ.

Those who know Jesus Christ, and are connected to Him, have the eternal life that comes from Him. John 17:3

If you are removed from Him, then you no longer have the eternal life He provide to those who are connected to Him, just as a branch is connected to the Vine.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


JLB

 

[JLB]

Since there aren't any such verses, there is no reason to accept your opinion about those who only believe for a while.

Even when Jesus noted that some do only believe for a while, no where did He even hint that such a one would lose their salvation.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


All you have to do is show us the scriptures that teach us that those who no longer believe, still have the same salvation as believers.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

The point of Rom. 11:29 is not when he gives a gift, but who gets the gift.

Of course. And those who receive the gift of eternal life cannot lose it, because it is an irrevocable gift of God. Rom 11:29.

Paul reassures Israel, his kinsmen by race, that the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable (they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers Rom. 11:28), and that the part of Israel that was hardened/rejected to let the Gentiles in, can be grafted back into the olive tree, so all Israel will be saved. Rom. 11: 24-26

I don't know why one would even think that the gifts of Rom 11:29 apply to national Israel. The gifts, as you noted, are received. And they are received by faith in Christ.

Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life. 1 Tim 1:16

That's how one receives eternal life; those who would believe in Him for it.