If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

[MarkT]

I don't f

OK. And this seal is a PROMISE or a GUARANTEE for the day of redemption.


And it's a PROMISE, a GUARANTEE for the day of redemption.


There it is; clear as crystal.


Sure is!


Gonna have to do much better than insert an opinion here.

If one who only believes for a while and then God breaks the seal of approval when they cease to believe, then where are the verses about God breaking His promise and guarantee and breaking this seal?? HUH?

Since there aren't any such verses, there is no reason to accept your opinion about those who only believe for a while.

Even when Jesus noted that some do only believe for a while, no where did He even hint that such a one would lose their salvation.

I suppose you have to see the word salvation too.

Words like 'will be cut down', as in, 'every tree that doesn't bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.' Mt. 7:19 and, “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ Mt. 7:21-23 are sown.

The word salvation isn't there. So the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown.

 

[FreeGrace]

The seal is the Holy Spirit, which is the promise of the Father.

This is for believers, not for those who depart from, or turn away from, or fall away from Christ.

Please STOP making this claim without any evidence from Scripture.

The gift is for believers; WHEN they believe, according to Eph 1:13. And once one believes, they ARE sealed. That is a promise and guarantee for the day of redemption.

Those who know Jesus Christ, and are connected to Him, have the eternal life that comes from Him. John 17:3

If you are removed from Him, then you no longer have the eternal life He provide to those who are connected to Him, just as a branch is connected to the Vine.

Please STOP making such a claim when there is NO EVIDENCE from Scripture that supports your claim.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
JLB

I've asked before, and I'll continue to ask: where is there any mention of loss of salvation or eternal life in this verse?

 

[MarkT]

Of course. And those who receive the gift of eternal life cannot lose it, because it is an irrevocable gift of God. Rom 11:29.


I don't know why one would even think that the gifts of Rom 11:29 apply to national Israel. The gifts, as you noted, are received. And they are received by faith in Christ.

Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life. 1 Tim 1:16

That's how one receives eternal life; those who would believe in Him for it.

I asked you to read chapter 11, not even the whole letter, just chapter 11. I don't see any evidence you read it. If you did you might see Paul is talking about Israel, his kinsmen by race. But you just keep repeating yourself.

 

[FreeGrace]

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

All you have to do is show from that verse, or any verse in context with that verse that those who no longer believe lose their salvation.

If there was ever a PERFECT place to make that point, this is one. Yet, Jesus NEVER said anything about loss of salvation. Don't you find that at least a little troubling for your views? It should.

All you have to do is show us the scriptures that teach us that those who no longer believe, still have the same salvation as believers.
JLB

I proved it by showing what Paul taught about the gifts of justification and eternal life; they are irrevocable.

And there isn't any verse that says, as you believe, that if one ceases to believe, they cease to be saved.

Don't you find that at least a little troubling for your views? It should.

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked you to read chapter 11, not even the whole letter, just chapter 11. I don't see any evidence you read it.

I'm sorry about your eyesight. I really am.

I asked for which verse in ch 11 speaks about "gifts" towards national Israel, and you have ignored it.

If you did you might see Paul is talking about Israel, his kinsmen by race. But you just keep repeating yourself.

Sure. He was talking about physical Israel. So what? Where is there ANY mention of gifts to them? Nowhere is where.

And, talking about repeating yourself, you've done quite a job.

All I've done is repeat what Paul taught.

 

[MarkT]

I'm sorry about your eyesight. I really am.

I asked for which verse in ch 11 speaks about "gifts" towards national Israel, and you have ignored it.


Sure. He was talking about physical Israel. So what? Where is there ANY mention of gifts to them? Nowhere is where.

And, talking about repeating yourself, you've done quite a job.

All I've done is repeat what Paul taught.

So what? Because it makes a difference. Paul is talking about sin in Romans 6 and he is talking about his kinsmen and what was promised in Romans 11. In Rom. 11:29, gifts of the Spirit is understood. It's the call of God that associates the gifts with the promise and the word of God, and that is what is irrevocable.

 

[JLB]

I proved it by showing what Paul taught about the gifts of justification and eternal life; they are irrevocable.

Romans 11:29 does not have the words eternal life in it.

Eternal life is the gift of God in Christ Jesus.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Not the gifts of God, but the gift of God in Christ Jesus.

Romans 11:29 does not say the gift of God in Christ Jesus can never be lost.

Irrevocable, or without repentance, in the Greek doesn't even mean what you are trying to convey.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Because it makes a difference. Paul is talking about sin in Romans 6 and he is talking about his kinsmen and what was promised in Romans 11. In Rom. 11:29, gifts of the Spirit is understood.

It's also understood the other gifts that Paul had described are being referred to. The gifts of the Spirit was mentioned in 1:11, and justification was described as a gift in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17. And eternal life was described as a gift of God in 6:23.

It's the call of God that associates the gifts with the promise and the word of God, and that is what is irrevocable.

No, both God's gifts AND call are irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace]

Romans 11:29 does not have the words eternal life in it.

So what? Paul had already described God's gifts as justification in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 and eternal life in 6:23. He had no need to specifically mention them again, as he had already noted them. He connected the dots for us.

Romans 11:29 does not say the gift of God in Christ Jesus can never be lost.

Actually, it does. But people reject the truth of that vere.

Irrevocable, or without repentance, in the Greek doesn't even mean what you are trying to convey.
JLB

So, what does it mean, then?

 

[JLB]

So, what does it mean, then?

Without regret.

Actually, it does. But people reject the truth of that vere.

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:29 KJV

This verse does not say... the gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus can never be lost.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

If the Christian who has been given the gift of Jesus Christ, begins to walk after the sinful desires of the flesh, and becomes a homosexual and dies in that condition of disobedience, then that Christian will reap the wrath of God, and will not inherit His Kingdom, but rather death.

7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:7-8


12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:12-15


19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21


For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell...
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”
2 Peter 2:4,20-22


12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called“Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

Christians who choose to live a lifestyle of disobedience, and bring forth the fruit of the kingdom of darkness, will not inherit the kingdom of God.


But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 24:48-51


JLB

 

[smaller]

Believers make dire mistakes dealing with believers who fall away from faith in Christ. I could get into a lengthy list of why believers fall and fail, but the end lesson in all of it is that we do have adverse to the Spirit enemies that do attack and do blind believers.

Paul gave us only one direction:

Galatians 6:1
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

 

[FreeGrace]

Without regret.

Exactly! God's gifts and calling are "without regret". That means He doesn't regret giving His gifts.

If He took any of His gifts back, wouldn't that demonstrate regret??!! Please answer.

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:29 KJV

This verse does not say... the gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus can never be lost.

It DOES MEAN that God doesn't regret giving the gift of eternal life. So when He gives the gift of eternal life, He NEVER takes it back.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Correct! The gift of God is eternal life. And that gift is given without regret.

If the Christian who has been given the gift of Jesus Christ, begins to walk after the sinful desires of the flesh, and becomes a homosexual and dies in that condition of disobedience, then that Christian will reap the wrath of God, and will not inherit His Kingdom, but rather death.

Oh, I see. Your theology is that God DOES REGRET giving the free gift of eternal life to anyone who fails to live the Christian life.

Even though the Bible SAYS that God's gifts are without regret.

Christians who choose to live a lifestyle of disobedience, and bring forth the fruit of the kingdom of darkness, will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Correct. Even though you don't really understand what "inheriting the kingdom" means.

For all the verses that were quoted, I've already discussed and explained them. There is no need to repeat it.

 

[JLB]

Exactly! God's gifts and calling are "without regret". That means He doesn't regret giving His gifts.

If He took any of His gifts back, wouldn't that demonstrate regret??!! Please answer.

Ok, good. You have finally admitted that the word irrevocable doesn't mean what you have been implying.

(Edited, ToS 2.4, unwelcome spiritual advice. Obadiah)


He doesn't take back any of His "gifts".

The gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus.

Eternal life is knowing God.

If a person turns away from Him, he turns away from the eternal life that is in Christ Jesus.

That's not God "taking back" His gift.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Oh, I see. Your theology is that God DOES REGRET giving the free gift of eternal life to anyone who fails to live the Christian life.

Not at all, God doesn't regret giving anyone the opportunity to know His Son, by repenting and believing the Gospel, even if they fall away from Him and turn to other Gods, He still loves them... even in hell.

For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38-39



JLB

 

[JLB]

Correct. Even though you don't really understand what "inheriting the kingdom" means.

Inherit the kingdom = Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34

There it is, right from the mouth of Jesus Christ.


Now, from these words of our Lord:
Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Tell us what Jesus means by "inherit the kingdom".


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Exactly! God's gifts and calling are "without regret". That means He doesn't regret giving His gifts.

If He took any of His gifts back, wouldn't that demonstrate regret??!! Please answer."

Ok, good. You have finally admitted that the word irrevocable doesn't mean what you have been implying.

(Edited, ToS 2.4, inflammatory statement. There have been multiple requests by staff in this thread to refrain from inflammatory statements. Obadiah.)

(Removed. Resoinse t a deleted portion of a post. Obadiah)

He doesn't take back any of His "gifts".

Please answer my questions.

Here it is again: If God took back one of His gifts, wouldn't that demonstrate regret?

(From the A&T Guidelines which you are to abide by in this forum:

• You may ask a member questions as to what they believe on certain topics relative to the subject of the thread, but please keep in mind the member is under no obligation to answer.
• Failing to answer someone’s question doesn’t necessarily amount to an admission of error or surrender but keep in mind that in any debate if you refuse to or can not answer a reasonable question, it may weaken your position.)

The gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus.

And it's irrevocable.

Eternal life is knowing God.

It's also God's life which He imparts to those who believe in His Son. And it is irrevocable.

If a person turns away from Him, he turns away from the eternal life that is in Christ Jesus.

No he doesn't. There are NO VERSES that indicate that anyone can walk away or turn away from the gift of eternal life.

If eternal life can be revoked or taken back, or lost, or turned away from, then it wasn't really 'eternal' now, was it?

That's not God "taking back" His gift.
JLB

You've not proven anything about your own views.

There is NO evidence from Scripture that anyone can return the gift of eternal life.

Having eternal life is a NEW life, which is part of what being born AGAIN means, or REgeneration. Or born ANEW.

The onus is on you to prove otherwise. (Edited, ToS 2.4, inflammatory statement. There have been multiple requests by staff in this thread to refrain from inflammatory statements. Obadiah.)

The new life that God gives to those who believe cannot be walked away from.

Let's look at the comparison between spiritual life and physical life.

Our physical life comes from our physical birth parents. That is irrevocable. No one can severe that relationship. It is permanent. One can ruin the fellowship with their physical birth parents, sure. But the simple FACT is that the relationship is permanent.

The same is true with our spiritual parent, our Heavenly Father. When we are born again, that is as permanent and irrevocable as our physical relationship is with our birth parents.

That's why God chose to use that wording to describe our relationship to Him.

The onus is on you to prove otherwise. And remember; in my opinion (edited, Obadiah) there are NO VERSES that tell us that one can lose salvation, or walk away from it.

Any child can walk away from their parent. But that doesn't change the physical relationship between them. It only changes the fellowship they may have had.

My view is not only reasonable, but in my opinion it is (edited, Obadiah)Biblical.

 

[FreeGrace]

Not at all, God doesn't regret giving anyone the opportunity to know His Son, by repenting and believing the Gospel, even if they fall away from Him and turn to other Gods, He still loves them... even in hell.

(Edited, ToS 2.4, inflammatory statement. There have been multiple requests by staff in this thread to refrain from inflammatory statements. Obadiah.)

For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38-39
JLB

Do you not understand what "nor things present nor things to come" actually means?

So, I'll explain my opinion of (edited, Obadiah) it. Paul indicated that there is NOTHING in the present or in the future that can separate us from God's love. That includes even rebellion among some of His children.

(Edited, ToS 2.4, inflammatory statement. There have been multiple requests by staff in this thread to refrain from inflammatory statements. Obadiah.)

Your theological view is totally divorced from Scripture. That's all you've proven by all your posts.

 

[MarkT]

It's also understood the other gifts that Paul had described are being referred to. The gifts of the Spirit was mentioned in 1:11, and justification was described as a gift in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17. And eternal life was described as a gift of God in 6:23.


No, both God's gifts AND call are irrevocable.

The gifts are associated with the call of God, and it has to be read that way. Irrevocable does not mean can not be lost. Irrevocable means can not be cancelled. That’s because it is God’s word. So Paul is saying God’s word to his people can not be cancelled.

If you just pull out 'gifts', you lose all sense of what Paul is saying.

 

[MarkT]

Some Bibles use the words 'are without repentance' which is ok if you understand what irrevocable means. If you want to know the meaning of words, get yourself a dictionary.

revoke

verb

put an end to the validity or operation of (a decree, decision, or promise):

Officially cancel (a decree, decision, or promise)

irrevocable

adjective

not able to be changed, reversed, or recovered; final

 

[Obadiah]

Closed for review.