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If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

Who thinks asking for a gift, when is received worked for it, and earned it?

  • Worked for it, and earned it!

    Votes: 1 8.3%
  • Didn't work for it, and didn't earn it!

    Votes: 11 91.7%

  • Total voters
    12
Perhaps some clarification on the scripture requirement is in order here. The guideline on this states: "Subsequent responses either opposing or adding additional information should include references to specific supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation of the member's understanding of how that scripture applies."

Note that if a response is opposing a statement or is adding more information to the point, it is required for it to be based on scripture and that scripture must be referenced. This applies to each and every post, even if you have already referenced this same scripture in a previous post. Remember, other people read the forum too and you can't expect them to know what scripture you are referring to and where you posted it. However, asking a question to learn more about a poster's idea is not included in this requirement. But a word of caution on that: Don't write an opposing statement and try to circumvent this rule by just typing a question mark instead of a period at the end of it. We can see through that.

"Referencing" scripture is not a requirement to actually quote the verses you are talking about. A chapter, verse, and version reference is fine (such as "John 3:16, ESV"). In fact, even the version reference isn't technically required in this case because the actual verse isn't quoted, but it's nice to know what translation you are using in case someone wants to have a deep discussion of the scripture in question. However if you quote the actual scripture ("For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life") then copyright law requires that for most translations you must include the version reference, in this case it is the English Standard Version or "ESV". While it's true some translations don't require this under copyright law, it's an easy thing to include and will avoid confusion later on.

It's fine to say something like "John 3:16 says God loves us" This is obviously stating your opinion of something this scripture says, but is not a quote of the scripture itself. However if your statement contains an actual quote of the scripture you may not change it's wording unless you make if very obvious that you are adding your own clarification of what something means. For example you can't say "John 3:16, ESV says "For God so loved us, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." This is changing the published words and can not be done. However you are free to state that you believe the words "the world" means "us".

I hope this adds some clarification.
 
Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; John 15:2
When are you going to prove that "takes away" has any reference to loss of salvation?

(Edited, off topic arguing. Obadiah.)

In fact, I KNOW that such a thing is IMPOSSIBLE. Why? Because WHEN one believes, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is a promise and guarantee for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5. And I mean ALL of each verse, not just "parts" as you've

Why haven't you explained what "day of redemption" means to you? Obviously it relates to entering eternity, in a redeemed state. But I'd be interested in knowing what your view of the phrase means.

In any case, it is a biblical phrase and those of your view must face its meaning.

Please show from the scriptures, where a person who was removed from being in Christ, still has eternal life.
No can do. Because there are NO VERSES that say that one who has been sealed with the Holy Spirit can be removed from Christ. Because they are sealed as a promise, a guarantee for the day of redemption, a phrase that you've been avoiding.

Please show from the scriptures, where a person who was removed from the book of Life, still has eternal Life.JLB
No can do. Those removed from the book of Life never believed. That is the view of scholars about that verse.

I've already explained that. Did you miss it?

The BETTER challenge is on you: to show from Scripture that eternal life, a gift of God, can be taken away.

Please be my guest and prove it.
 
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When are you going to prove that "takes away" has any reference to loss of salvation?


For you to prove it doesn't, then list the scriptures where people have eternal life, disconnected from Christ.

A person has eternal life in Christ. As believers, we are joined to Him as one, and therefore we are joined to the eternal life that is in Christ.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17


Jesus told us plainly, that those who are removed from Him, are cast into the fire and burned.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Now if you believe these who are gather up and throw into the fire and are burned, still have eternal life, even though they are no longer in Him, that's fine, please just show the scripture for this.

Since those who are throw into the fire and burned after they have been removed from, and continue to exist in the everlasting fire as everlasting punishment, it would seem to make some sense, that they have are eternal beings, but it would be eternal death, not eternal life.

Just please show the scripture for what you believe.


JLB

 
No can do. Those removed from the book of Life never believed.

These were in the book of life, but NEVER believed, or were in covenant? :confused

Makes no sense what so ever. :nono

Let them be blotted out of the book of the living,
And not be written with the righteous.
Psalm 69:28
 
In fact, I KNOW that such a thing is IMPOSSIBLE. Why? Because WHEN one believes, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is a promise and guarantee for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5. And I mean ALL of each verse, not just "parts" as you've

Why haven't you explained what "day of redemption" means to you? Obviously it relates to entering eternity, in a redeemed state. But I'd be interested in knowing what your view of the phrase means.

In any case, it is a biblical phrase and those of your view must face its meaning.

(Edited for failure to follow the directions of a moderator in post 861 concerning the accepted ways of including scripture in posts, and violation of ToS 2.6 which states a member may not impose additional rules upon threads. Obadiah)


All the promises of God are yes, and amen "in Christ".

For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us. 2 Corinthians 1:20

Key Phrase: IN HIM.

As long as you are in HIM, and joined to Him as one spirit, then all the blessings of His obedient life, that He has obtained, is also available to us, who are IN HIM.

Get removed, severed, disconnected from Him, and you will here these words on the Day of Judgement:

Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41


Anyone who has the slightest interest in the truth can see, from the context, that those who were on His right hand and on His left hand, in Matthew 25, were all His servants.

Not those who never believed, but His servants.

I challenge you to prove otherwise.


JLB
 
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For you to prove it doesn't, then list the scriptures where people have eternal life, disconnected from Christ.

A person has eternal life in Christ. As believers, we are joined to Him as one, and therefore we are joined to the eternal life that is in Christ.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17


Jesus told us plainly, that those who are removed from Him, are cast into the fire and burned.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Now if you believe these who are gather up and throw into the fire and are burned, still have eternal life, even though they are no longer in Him, that's fine, please just show the scripture for this.

Since those who are throw into the fire and burned after they have been removed from, and continue to exist in the everlasting fire as everlasting punishment, it would seem to make some sense, that they have are eternal beings, but it would be eternal death, not eternal life.

Just please show the scripture for what you believe.JLB
No one has proven that one who has been sealed with the Holy Spirit has been unsealed.

Unless that can be proven from Scripture, there is no reason to accept such an idea.

In fact, Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 prove the opposite. Once sealed, promised and guaranteed for the day of redemptionn.
 
No one has proven that one who has been sealed with the Holy Spirit has been unsealed.

Unless that can be proven from Scripture, there is no reason to accept such an idea.

In fact, Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 prove the opposite. Once sealed, promised and guaranteed for the day of redemptionn.


(Edited for failure to follow the directions of a moderator in post 861 concerning the accepted ways of including scripture in posts, and violation of ToS 2.6 which states a member may not impose additional rules upon threads. Obadiah)


All the promises of God are yes, and amen "in Christ".

For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us. 2 Corinthians 1:20


JLB
 
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I said this:
"n fact, I KNOW that such a thing is IMPOSSIBLE. Why? Because WHEN one believes, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is a promise and guarantee for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5. And I mean ALL of each verse, not just "parts" as you've

Why haven't you explained what "day of redemption" means to you? Obviously it relates to entering eternity, in a redeemed state. But I'd be interested in knowing what your view of the phrase means.

In any case, it is a biblical phrase and those of your view must face its meaning."
(Edited for failure to follow the directions of a moderator in post 861 concerning the accepted ways of including scripture in posts, and violation of ToS 2.6 which states a member may not impose additional rules upon threads. Obadiah)
(Edited. Response to a deleted portion of a post. Obadiah)

But, I'm always happy to quote the truth.

Eph 4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption

And Eph 1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Now, no excuse for ignoring these verses. Please explain what you think "day of redemption" refers to in Eph 4:30, which I've quoted above.

And as well, please explain what Eph 1:14 means.
 
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(Edited. Response to a deleted portion of a post. Obadiah)

But, I'm always happy to quote the truth.

Eph 4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption

Now look at this verse within the context:

30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you. Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma. 3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.


These words were written to Christians:

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Therefore do not be partakers with them.


Well there went your OSAS doctrine. :wave



JLB



 
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Now look at this verse within the context:

30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you. Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma. 3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.


These words were written to Christians:

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Therefore do not be partakers with them.


Well there went your OSAS doctrine. :wave
JLB
I'm still waiting for ANY verse that warns about loss of salvation clearly. You've failed to do that. Or even come close.

The fact is, there are no such verses. Why? Because the gift of eternal life (Rom 6:23) is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

And those who believe are sealed with the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption, which you've dodged to explain what it means to you.

So there you go. Verses on the believer's guarantee and promise for the day of redemption, and that God's gifts, including justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

And NO verses on loss of salvation.

In my opinion (Edited, Obadiah) all you've provided are cobbled together verses that do NOT teach what you preach.
 
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I'm still waiting for ANY verse that warns about loss of salvation clearly. You've failed to do that. Or even come close.

The fact is, there are no such verses. Why? Because the gift of eternal life (Rom 6:23) is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

And those who believe are sealed with the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption, which you've dodged to explain what it means to you.

So there you go. Verses on the believer's guarantee and promise for the day of redemption, and that God's gifts, including justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

And NO verses on loss of salvation.

In my opinion (Edited, Obadiah) all you've provided are cobbled together verses that do NOT teach what you preach.

Hebrews 10:38
but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.”

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and keep their souls.

The loss of salvation, or destruction which amounts to the same thing, is everywhere. Shrinking back, losing faith - those who shrink back are destroyed. Heb. 10:38-39 Those who twist the truth to their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:16 Dead branches are destroyed by fire. Mt. 13:6 John 15:6 Regarding the fallen - salt that has lost its saltness can not be restored Mt. 5:13 Comparing a man who has rejected the word of God to land that bears thistles and thorns, the end is to be burned. Heb. 6:4-8 The gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. Mt. 7:13

And speaking of warnings, Jesus warns us believers - judge not that you be not judged, he who is angry with his brother, he who insults his brother, he who says, "you fool" shall be liable to the hell of fire. Mt. 5:22 Jesus warns us - if you don't forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Mt. 6:14-15 Jesus warned us of false prophets in sheep's clothing. Mt. 7:15

Those who keep his words and who keep his commandments abide in his love and prove they are his disciples. John 15:7-10
 
When are you going to prove that "takes away" has any reference to loss of salvation?
John 15 has several references to loss of salvation.
John 15:2 (KJV) Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;fn and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
The understanding of the word translated "takes away" (Gr: αἴρω [airō] to move from its place, to take off or away what is attached to anything, to remove), is reflected in the word translated "prunes." ( Gr: καθαίρω [kathairō] to prune trees and vines from useless shoots). A branch that is "taken away" from the vine is no longer connected to the vine. Both words indicate that unproductive branches are removed (taken away, removed, cut off, pruned) from the vine.

As verse 1 states, Jesus is the vine, the source of life, in this case, of eternal life. (AKA: "salvation") Verse 2 states that, if anyone does not produce "fruit", God takes him from that source of eternal life. Anyone who is removed from the only source of eternal life cannot have salvation. The fact that he once was attached to the source of eternal life (every branch "in me") and has been removed is a statement that the individual no longer has eternal life. Jesus has given us a very clear statement that someone can be "in me" and, because of a lack of fruit, can be cut off from Him. That can only be understood as someone having been saved (being "in CHrist") and then being separated from Christ and no longer saved.

Jesus reiterated the teaching at verse 6: “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned." (NKJV)

That verse states the fact that, according to Jesus, it is possible to be "in Christ" and not remain (abide) in Him. One cannot be saved if one does not remain in Christ.

The image of those branches which do not abide in Him withering is an image of death in contrast to the eternal life one has "in Christ."

The image of those branches which do not abide in Him being gathered up, cast in the fire and burned is an image of the angels gathering the wicked at the end of the age and casting them into the fires of hell. (Unless you wish to propose that it those cut off branches are still "saved" and have been cast into Purgatory for a final cleansing before they are allowed to enter the presence of God in heaven.)

iakov the fool
 
We just ask for his free gift of salvation and receive it. Who here thinks if you ask someone to give you their brand new Lamborghini as a gift is working for it? Who here thinks the person asking for a Lamborghini as a gift worked for it and earned it when he received the lamborghini for free, to keep forever! Romans 6:23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. For whosoever shall call upon THE NAME OF THE LORD shall be saved” (Romans 10:13) Call here is the word meaning believe. Feel free to explain why you feel you earned, or worked so hard for that brand spanking new lamborghini after you asked for it, and was freely given to you!

There's nothing anyone does to earn eonial life. It is always the Father that first draws those who do end up calling on the name of the Lord, so therefore, it is not the one who runs, or walks, or does this, or does that, but it is whomever the Father draws that will indeed be saved.
 
There's nothing anyone does to earn eonial life. It is always the Father that first draws those who do end up calling on the name of the Lord, so therefore, it is not the one who runs, or walks, or does this, or does that, but it is whomever the Father draws that will indeed be saved.
That's true.
It's also true that no one keeps eternal life by (Edited, Obadiah) neglecting to obey the LORD.

iakov the fool
 
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That verse states the fact that, according to Jesus, it is possible to be "in Christ" and not remain (abide) in Him. One cannot be saved if one does not remain in Christ.

“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned." John 15:6

Very simple, and straightforward.

A person was in Christ, then he is cast into the fire and burned.

Unfortunately, there has always been those who change the meanings and words and phrases to suit thier own doctrine, that originates from man, and is not from God.




JLB
 
That's true.
It's also true that no one keeps eternal life by (Edited, Obadiah) and neglecting to obey the LORD.

iakov the fool

If you don't obey God then you haven't been truly drawn to God. Anyone who is drawn by God first hears the word, then believes, then repents from all sin, then humbles himself with the selling of all properties and all unneeded possessions, then gives alms to the poor, then receives holy spirit which causes him to sin no more since holy spirit removes all evil desires that are the root of sin, then becomes a laborer of the great harvest which is spreading the gospel. Every believer who is drawn does all these things, and if he is indeed missing on any of these things he hasn't truly been drawn.

(There have been multiple requests in this thread to read and follow the guidelines of this forum. These requests are not to be ignored without consequence. One of the guidelines of this forum states:
  • Subsequent responses either opposing or adding additional information should include references to specific supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation of the member's understanding of how that scripture applies.
 
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There's nothing anyone does to earn eonial life.

Did you know that Paul wrote this to the Church in Rome; To Christians?

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:7-8



JLB
 
If you don't obey God then you haven't been truly drawn to God. Anyone who is drawn by God first hears the word, then believes, then repents from all sin, then humbles himself with the selling of all properties and all unneeded possessions, then gives alms to the poor, then receives holy spirit which causes him to sin no more since holy spirit removes all evil desires that are the root of sin, then becomes a laborer of the great harvest which is spreading the gospel. Every believer who is drawn does all these things, and if he is indeed missing on any of these things he hasn't truly been drawn.


Do you believe The Holy Spirit is God?

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Matthew 28:19

and again

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. John 14:26


JLB
 
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