If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

[JLB]

There are several crowns awarded in Scripture to those who deserve them. These are "rewards" for faithful service. No one should suggest that anyone can earn their salvation and be awarded the GIFT of eternal life.

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. James 1:12

Notice that James doesn't say... for when he has earned, but rather, for when he has been approved.

Maybe you should reacquaint yourself with some of the things Jesus taught His disciples on the Mount of Olives.


Here is an example. I will start with a passage that directly speaks to our generation, who is awaiting the return of the Lord.

45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:45-51

Those who have been faithful with what Jesus gave them, are blessed.

Notice the language... when he comes, will find so doing.

On the other hand, those who were entrusted with doing, and instead began to live unrighteously, are covenant breakers.

Notice the "covenant language". will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites.

These are what the bible calls reprobates, or what the New King James calls "disqualified".


Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? 2 Corinthians 13:5 KJV

5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified. 2 Corinthians 13:5 NKJV

Strongs - Greek 96 -

1. not standing the test, not approved
   
   1. properly used of metals and coins
      
2. that which does not prove itself such as it ought
   
   1. unfit for, unproved, spurious, reprobate
      

50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:50-51

These who were faithful to do, were not "earning" their salvation, but were obedient to do, with what they had been given.


Is there any question as to what this phrase means...
appoint him his portion with the hypocrites.There shall be


Do you believe He meant these folks whom He appointed them to be with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, meant they would lose some rewards or they would be assigned to be with the hypocrites who are in hell, were there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Matthew 8:11-12

49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 13:49-50



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

The crown of Life is a reference to salvation.[/QUOTE}
The Bible mentions various crowns. They are eternal rewards for specific things.

According to the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia:
There are five uses of the crown as seen in the Scripture references studied, namely, decoration, consecration, coronation, exaltation, and remuneration.

Your "definition" that actually changes what Paul's words are to the Church, is not acceptable.

The definition does no such thing. You've failed to show either how or why it would.

Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified. 2 Corinthians 13:5

The crown of Life goes to those who are approved, not to those who are reprobates and are disqualified.

Please show WHERE in Scripture the crown of life relates to 2 Cor 13:5. There is no mention of crowns in that chapter.

Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. James 1;12

If one must "endure temptation" to go to heaven, we're all screwed then. This is an obvious reference to a reward.

To "endure" obviousy indicates effort and work. So you believe that salvation is earned, huh?

7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:5-7

I've already explained this verse thoroughly.

Now where is OSAS to found in scripture.

Eternal security is clearly taught in these verses:
for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Rom 11:29
Prior to 11:29, Paul specifically described several gifts of God:
being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus Rom 3:24
15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. Rom 5

Further, Paul spoke of believers being sealed with the Holy Spirit:
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph 1

Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Eph 4:30
who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge. 2 Cor 1:22
Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge. 2 Cor 5:5
if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself.2 Tim 2:13

Why is this about OSAS? Jesus promised the Holy Spirit, to be with the believer FOREVER.
“I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; John 14:16

Therefore, 2 Tim 2:13 is a promise that God remains faithful and will not disown Himself. Since the Holy Spirit lives in each believer, God cannot disown any believer.

38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 8:38,39

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. 7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. 1 Thess 5:4-10

V.10 is about the believer’s lifestyle. Which has been contrasted with the unbeliever’s lifestyle in v.4-9.

So, regardless of lifestyle, the believer will live together with Christ.

Those who continue to remain connected to Jesus Christ, continue to receive eternal life.

Please provide any verse that speaks of being "connected" to Christ, or that one who has been "connected" has been "disconnected". I don't find any such language or teaching in Scripture.

If it's taught, there would be verses that SAY SO.

[QUTOE]If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

One more time: this is about FELLOWSHIP, not RELATIONSHIP.

Those who are connect for a while, then become disconnected, no longer have access to the eternal life they once had.

Please see above request for verses that teach this.

This of course is irrefutable, which is why you can not answer this scripture, but only attempt to change the meaning, by "redefining" the words, to fit your "theology".

Well, the Bible actually TEACHES what is IRREVOCABLE. God's gifts. And Paul described eternal life as a gift of God.

You have never been able to provide a scripture, that shows we have eternal life apart from being connected to Jesus Christ.

You have never been able to provide any Scripture that shows that one who is "connected" to Christ can become "disconnected" from Christ.

And that would be totally impossible, since eternal life is a gift of God that is irrevocable.

Your view directly contradicts Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. James 1:12

Notice that James doesn't say... for when he has earned, but rather, for when he has been approved.

Maybe you should reacquaint yourself with some of the things Jesus taught His disciples on the Mount of Olives.


Here is an example. I will start with a passage that directly speaks to our generation, who is awaiting the return of the Lord.

45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:45-51

Those who have been faithful with what Jesus gave them, are blessed.

Notice the language... when he comes, will find so doing.

On the other hand, those who were entrusted with doing, and instead began to live unrighteously, are covenant breakers.

Notice the "covenant language". will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites.

These are what the bible calls reprobates, or what the New King James calls "disqualified".


Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? 2 Corinthians 13:5 KJV

5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified. 2 Corinthians 13:5 NKJV

Strongs - Greek 96 -

1. not standing the test, not approved
   1. properly used of metals and coins
2. that which does not prove itself such as it ought
   1. unfit for, unproved, spurious, reprobate

50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:50-51

These who were faithful to do, were not "earning" their salvation, but were obedient to do, with what they had been given.


Is there any question as to what this phrase means...
appoint him his portion with the hypocrites.There shall be


Do you believe He meant these folks whom He appointed them to be with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, meant they would lose some rewards or they would be assigned to be with the hypocrites who are in hell, were there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Matthew 8:11-12

49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 13:49-50JLB

We only need to remember what Scripture teaches:

God's gifts are irrevocable: Rom 11:29
Eternal life is a gift of God. Rom 6:23
Irrefutable.

 

[JLB]

We only need to remember what Scripture teaches:

God's gifts are irrevocable: Rom 11:29
Eternal life is a gift of God. Rom 6:23
Irrefutable.

There is reason you won't write out the scripture, but only "tag" your opinion, with a scripture reference.

Because the phrase eternal life, isn't mentioned in Romans 11:29.

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:29 KJV


And because, the wages of sin is death, is mentioned in Romans 6:29.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:29

One more time: this is about FELLOWSHIP, not RELATIONSHIP.

The relationship between a branch connected to a Vine is used to teaches us the truth of the kingdom of God.

A branch that is connect to the Vine receives from the Vine the very life from the Vine that sustains the branch and causes fruit to grow.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

In Him = Eternal life

Removed from Him = thrown into the fire and burned

You have never been able to provide any Scripture that shows that one who is "connected" to Christ can become "disconnected" from Christ.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Ignoring what the scriptures teach, is not the mark of a believer.

God loves us, and is for us. He sent His precious Son to die in our place that we could be reconciled to Him.

When we stumble He is there to help us back up.

He is eager to forgive us of our trespass and encourage us to walk with Him.

However, if we ignore Him, and His word, as well as teach others to disobey Him, and turn them to unrighteousness and rebellion, because of false teaching, we can expect to be chastened by Him.

If after we are chastened we still persist in hardening our heart, and continuing to lead others astray through our disobedience, and false teaching, the day will come when God will turn us over to our rebellion and stubbornness.

But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed...For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;...
They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 2 Peter 2:1-2, 4,15

18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 2 Peter 2:18-21

Well, the Bible actually TEACHES what is IRREVOCABLE. God's gifts. And Paul described eternal life as a gift of God

Because the phrase eternal life, isn't mentioned in Romans 11:29.

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:29 KJV

God's call to Israel to be saved through the Gospel, continues even to this day, as the grace and the promise of the Spirit [gifts] He offers them are as well, if the will repent and believe the Gospel.

They like everyone else must believe, in order to receive the gift of eteral life in Christ.

Jesus Christ is God's gift to the world.

Apart from Him, we have no life, or salvation.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

There is reason you won't write out the scripture, but only "tag" your opinion, with a scripture reference.

Dishonesty is not a virtue, ever.

I've quoted all these verses MANY TIMES before, but here they are again, none of which you've EVER refuted.

for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Rom 11:29
Prior to 11:29, Paul specifically described several gifts of God:

being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus Rom 3:24

15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.

17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. Rom 5

Further, Paul spoke of believers being sealed with the Holy Spirit:

13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph 1

Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Eph 4:30

who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge. 2 Cor 1:22

Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge. 2 Cor 5:5
if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself.2 Tim 2:13

Why is this about OSAS? Jesus promised the Holy Spirit, to be with the believer FOREVER.

“I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; John 14:16

Therefore, 2 Tim 2:13 is a promise that God remains faithful and will not disown Himself. Since the Holy Spirit lives in each believer, God cannot disown any believer.

38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 8:38,39

4But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. 7For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. 1 Thess 5:4-10

V.10 is about the believer’s lifestyle. Which has been contrasted with the unbeliever’s lifestyle in v.4-9.
So, regardless of lifestyle, the believer will live together with Christ.

Now, how about taking each of these quoted verses, and show me HOW they don't teach eternal security? I've shown HOW all the verses you've quoted DON'T teach loss of salvation.

Because the phrase eternal life, isn't mentioned in Romans 11:29.

Irrelevant and ridiculous, because Paul had ALREADY described what he meant by God's gifts.

Rom 5:15,16,17 - the gift is righteousness and justification
15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through theone, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:29 KJV

It's been shown NUMEROUS times that the word means irrevocable.

And because, the wages of sin is death, is mentioned in Romans 6:29.
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:29

You've never shown HOW these verses disprove OSAS.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

I've explained NUMEROUS times that this is about FELLOWSHIP, not RELATIONSHIP.

The PHYSICAL RELATIONSHIP between birth parent and child CANNOT BE BROKEN, as everyone knows.

But FELLOWSHIP between birth parent and child CAN be broken, as the story of the prodigal son demonstrates clearly.

The same is true in the spiritual realm. You've failed to prove otherwise.

 

[JLB]

for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Rom 11:29

Eternal life is not mentioned in this verse.

I've explained NUMEROUS times that this is about FELLOWSHIP, not RELATIONSHIP.

Your "explanation" is just your opinion, with no scripture, hoping to redefine and repackage the words of scripture to align with your post modern Gospel.

It's been shown NUMEROUS times that the word means irrevocable.

It's never been shown it means "irrevocable" as the modern definition.

It means "without regret", which is how the only other place in the bible renders it.


For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.
2 Corinthians 7:10

You've never shown HOW these verses disprove OSAS.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

The plain words of scripture spoken by Paul to the Church at Rome:

The context of Romans 6 is an unmistakable warning, not to live a life of sin.

Those who live a sinful life, will receive the wages of sin; death. Eternal Death.

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:16,19,23

Paul contrast's eternal life and eternal death.

Paul warned the Roman Church, as he warned all the Churches he was responsible for:

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:7-8



JLB

 

[smaller]

Here Paul tells us "how" he himself obtained the "gift."

1 Timothy 1:13
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Rom 11:29"

Eternal life is not mentioned in this verse.

Why would anyone think Paul needed to?? He already described what God's gifts are.
Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You've never shown that Paul didn't include the gift of eternal life when he penned 11:29. Therefore, he DID include the gift of eternal life when he penned 11:29.

But, even more than that, Paul taught eternal security through the sealing with the Holy Spirit. All believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit FOR the day of redemption.

Please tell me what the "day of redemption" refers to.

13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph 1
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Eph 4:30
who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge. 2 Cor 1:22
Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge. 2 Cor 5:5

It's never been shown it means "irrevocable" as the modern definition.

Greek Scholars are quite comfortable with the word "irrevocable" in Rom 11:29. Your opinion hardly matters against what Greek scholars think about the Greek.

It means "without regret", which is how the only other place in the bible renders it.

OK. So what? God gifts His gifts without regret, ok?

Now, why would anyone think that God, who gives His gifts without regret, take any of them away from those He has given them? Can you please explain that?

But anyway, Paul also taught about the sealing with the Holy Spirit. See the verses above. No one can show from Scripture that this particular sealing can be broken by the one sealed, or even by God, at least NOT before "the day of redemption". So, please define what that day refers to.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

And this gift is irrevocable.

The context of Romans 6 is an unmistakable warning, not to live a life of sin.

I fully agree. But there is NO WARNING about loss of salvation, there, or any where else in Scripture.

Those who live a sinful life, will receive the wages of sin; death. Eternal Death.

That is twisting Scripture completely out of its obvious and clear meaning.

Rom 6:23 teaches that those who are "in Christ", occurs as a result of believing in Him, as Eph 1:13 SAYS:
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

iow, to be 'in Him' means to be "SEALED in Him".

Again, please define what "day of redemption" means.

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:7-8

Actually, Paul PROVED that no one can "continue in doing good". In Rom 3:9 he wrote that both Jew and Gentile are ALL under sin and in 3:23 that "all have sinned". Therefore, NO ONE can "continue in doing good".

His point is clear; one would have to be perfect in order to earn eternal life. Only Jesus Christ was perfect and didn't need a Savior. Everyone else in the human race NEEDS a Savior, precisely because they are INCAPABLE of continuing to do good, and thereby receive eternal life.

Here are some verses about how one receives eternal life:
John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Now, please show me which of any of these verses where eternal life is given on the basis of continuing to do good.

The point is this: you cannot.

Your religion of works based salvation is unbiblical. It's what the Pharisees taught. And Jesus condemned.

 

[Nick]

Let's try and keep this based in Scripture, not what we think of other posters here.

 

[JLB]

Why would anyone think Paul needed to?? He already described what God's gifts are.
Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You've never shown that Paul didn't include the gift of eternal life when he penned 11:29. Therefore, he DID include the gift of eternal life when he penned 11:29.

But, even more than that, Paul taught eternal security through the sealing with the Holy Spirit. All believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit FOR the day of redemption.

Please tell me what the "day of redemption" refers to.

13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph 1
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Eph 4:30
who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge. 2 Cor 1:22
Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge. 2 Cor 5:5

The Holy Spirit is God's seal of approval for those who believe.

Just like Romans 6:23, we are given encouragement and warning. The wages of sin is death, the gift of God is eternal life.

Do you think that because we have been given the Holy Spirit to empower us to put to death the deeds of the flesh, that has changed from Paul's letter to the Romans?

25 Therefore, putting away lying, “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil. 28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need. 29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you. Ephesians 4:25-32

Now that we have been given the Holy Spirit, there is a greater responsibility on our part, to turn away from sin.

All liars will have there part in the lake of fire.

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

Are you trying to insinuate that because we have been given the Holy Spirit, we can now live a life of sin, and there will be no punishment?

Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 10:29


When we read the context of Ephesians 4:30, as a whole...

25 Therefore, putting away lying, “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil. 28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need. 29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma. 3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 4:25-5:7


Here is the clear and undiluted warning to those who have received the Holy Spirit: Let no one deceive you with empty words...

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Paul defines what THESE THINGS are:

Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma. 3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.


People who receive the Holy Spirit, and produce evil things, are likened to the earth receiving the water from heaven and bringing forth thorns and briers...

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. Hebrews 6:4-8



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

The Holy Spirit is God's seal of approval for those who believe.

Uh, no, it's not a "seal of approval". It is God's seal of His own possession. To be opened on the day of redemption. We all know what redemption means.

Just a reminder; there are no verses about anyone being able to break this seal before the day of redemption. This proves that each person who has believed in Christ for salvation is sealed FOR the day of redemption. This teaches eternal security.

Just like Romans 6:23, we are given encouragement and warning. The wages of sin is death, the gift of God is eternal life.

The warning is removed ONCE a person believes in Christ and is placed "in Him", which is exactly what Eph 1:13 says: "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,"

Those "having believed"... "were sealed in Him". v.14 tells what each believer was sealed FOR: the day of redemption: "who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory."

We know that a pledge is a promise. God's promise. So, God's "own possession", the believer, is sealed with the Holy Spirit as a promise of our inheritance, for redemption.

These 2 verses actually "seal" the deal with eternal security.

Do you think that because we have been given the Holy Spirit to empower us to put to death the deeds of the flesh, that has changed from Paul's letter to the Romans?

I have no idea what you question is trying to get at. It seems the suggestion here is that IF any believer doesn't "put to death the deeds of the flesh", they lose eternal life. Is that your position? If so, there is no reason for such a view.

Rom 6:23 doesn't come close to teaching that. It does teach that those who NEVER received the gift of eternal life will earn eternal death. Those who have received the gift of eternal life will NEVER experience eternal death.

25 Therefore, putting away lying, “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil. 28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need. 29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you. Ephesians 4:25-32

Now that we have been given the Holy Spirit, there is a greater responsibility on our part, to turn away from sin.

This is true and has nothing to do with loss of salvation.

All liars will have there part in the lake of fire.

So then, Christ did not die for any sins, huh? We KNOW that He died for sin ONCE FOR ALL. That doesn't mean He missed some sins.

Rom 6:10 - For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
1 Pet 3:18 - For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

And, finally, consider this verse: "the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil."

Does this verse say that Christ died only for some of the works of the devil? No. It clearly means ALL the works of the devil.

Are you trying to insinuate that because we have been given the Holy Spirit, we can now live a life of sin, and there will be no punishment?

Absolutely NOT. I've made that clear from the beginning. The Bible teaches about the severity of God's divine discipline to any of His children who are disobedient or unfaithful. But there is no teaching of loss of salvation.

That is impossible because the gift of eternal life is a gift (Rom 6:23) that is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).
And each believer is sealed as God's own possession by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption.

Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing,

and insulted the Spirit of grace?Hebrews 10:29

The "worse punishment" refers to one's physical life on earth, BEFORE eternity.

 

[FreeGrace]

Second part of response to post #910, by JLB

When we read the context of Ephesians 4:30, as a whole...

25 Therefore,

putting away lying, “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil. 28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need. 29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma. 3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 4:25-5:7

Where, in this passage, would anyone find anything about loss of salvation? It's not there. In fact, we read just the opposite: we (believers) are NOT to grieve the Holy Spirit, though we have been sealed by Him FOR the day of redemption. This proves that salvation is sealed for the one who has believed.

To teach of the possibility of loss of salvation is to ignore Eph 4:30, along with Eph 1:13,14 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5.

Here is the clear and undiluted warning to those who have received the Holy Spirit:

Let no one deceive you with empty words...

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Paul defines what THESE THINGS are:

Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma. 3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

Oh, we're back to the having "no inheritance IN the kingdom". That's correct. The believer will have NO inheritance IN the kingdom. This passage, which is paralle to the 2 other passages on "will not inherit the kingdom", is clear. There will be NO inheritance IN the kingdom.

People who receive the Holy Spirit, and produce evil things, are likened to the earth receiving the water from heaven and bringing forth thorns and briers...

4 For

it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. Hebrews 6:4-8JLB

Yes, they ARE likened to that. But nowhere in this passage is there any mention of loss of salvation. It's just NOT THERE.

Those who will pay close attention to what is actually there will note that what is to be burned isn't the ground itself, which represents the believer who produced thorn and briers, but the thorns and briers.

iow, it is the production of the believer that will be burned.

This is an exact parallel passage to 1 Cor 3:14,15:
14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

This is very plain statement of receiving a reward OR suffering loss of a reward, all based on one's 'work'.

 

[Malachi]

We only need to remember what Scripture teaches:

God's gifts are irrevocable: Rom 11:29
Eternal life is a gift of God. Rom 6:23
Irrefutable.

That's about as simple and straightforward as it can get. For God, a gift is a gift is a gift.

The question then arises as to how can God possibly give away the most precious of all gifts? And the answer is found in the sufferings, death, burial, resurrection, and exaltation of Christ. NOT in anything found in the sinner.

 

[Jim Parker]

And this speaks of loss of fellowship. The reason this CANNOT refer to loss of salvation is that the believer's RELATIONSHIP cannot be broken any more than the RELATIONSHIP between birth parent and child cannot be broken.

That statement ignores the point which Jesus made that those branches which are not connected to the vine wither, dies, and are collected up and thrown into the fire.

Fire is also a metaphor; it refers to hell.

 

[FreeGrace]

That statement ignores the point which Jesus made that those branches which are not connected to the vine wither, dies, and are collected up and thrown into the fire.

Fire is also a metaphor; it refers to hell.

Certainly not always. In fact, 1 Cor 3:14,15 proves that it doesn't.

 

[WIP]

Certainly not always. In fact, 1 Cor 3:14,15 proves that it doesn't.

Your post begs the question, "In what way?" Please expand on posts like this.

 

[FreeGrace]

Jim Parker said: ↑
That statement ignores the point which Jesus made that those branches which are not connected to the vine wither, dies, and are collected up and thrown into the fire.

Fire is also a metaphor; it refers to hell.

My response:
"Certainly not always. In fact, 1 Cor 3:14,15 proves that it doesn't."

Your post begs the question, "In what way?" Please expand on posts like this.

Certainly.

The 2 verses: 14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

We learn in v.14 about receiving a reward for "any man's work". In v.15, we learn about "any man's work being burned up", or having no reward (suffer loss of reward).

Then it clearly states that "he himself will be saved", so obviously the suffering loss does not involve loss of salvation. In fact, fire is mentioned as why "any man" will suffer loss: his works will be burned up through fire.

So, here, "fire" cannot refer to hell, as the verse says "he will be saved yet so as through fire."

No one is saved through hell. That doesn't even make sense.

Fire is used throughout Scripture metaphorically to refer to God's judgment.

Here is a useful link to how "fire" is used in the Bible: http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/fire/

 

[Jim Parker]

The 2 verses: 14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

We learn in v.14 about receiving a reward for "any man's work". In v.15, we learn about "any man's work being burned up", or having no reward (suffer loss of reward).

Then it clearly states that "he himself will be saved", so obviously the suffering loss does not involve loss of salvation. In fact, fire is mentioned as why "any man" will suffer loss: his works will be burned up through fire.

So, here, "fire" cannot refer to hell, as the verse says "he will be saved yet so as through fire."

No one is saved through hell. That doesn't even make sense.

You're right; it doesn't make sense.

It doesn't make sense because you are conflating the idea of man's works being judged and the concept of being separated from Jesus (cut off from the vine.)

A believer will be rewarded for his/her good works and the bad works will be "burned up" and removed from the believer. (Thus the concept of purgatory) The bad works will not survive but He/she will have eternal life.

Someone who does no good works (does not bear fruit) is separated from the only source of Life (Jesus, the "vine"). If you are "cut off" from Jesus, you are "Cut off" from eternal life.

Jesus' life is eternal life. Those who lack that life suffer the second death in the lake of burning sulfur.

 

[FreeGrace]

You're right; it doesn't make sense.

It doesn't make sense because you are conflating the idea of man's works being judged and the concept of being separated from Jesus (cut off from the vine.)

I don't see how I conflated 1 Cor 3:14,15 with Rom 11. Please clarify. My post didn't even bring up "the vine".

A believer will be rewarded for his/her good works and the bad works will be "burned up" and removed from the believer. (Thus the concept of purgatory) The bad works will not survive but He/she will have eternal life.

I disagree with the concept of purgatory, and I don't see how one would even think of it from 1 Cor 3:15.

My understanding is that the "bad works" will simply not be rewarded. What "survives" is rewarded.

Someone who does no good works (does not bear fruit) is separated from the only source of Life (Jesus, the "vine"). If you are "cut off" from Jesus, you are "Cut off" from eternal life.

It seems this is a conflation of 1 Cor 3:14,15 with Rom 11.

Jesus' life is eternal life. Those who lack that life suffer the second death in the lake of burning sulfur.

Now, that I agree with! And Jesus gives eternal life to those who believe in Him. And they have it WHEN they believe, per His own words: "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life. He does NOT come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." Jn 5:24

The verb tenses here is informative. Those who believe HAVE eternal life and does NOT come into judgment.

Also, eternal life is exactly that: eternal. Those who don't have it will experience the "second death" or the lake of fire.

Those who disagree with eternal security have to prove from Scripture that God kills eternal life, or at least takes it away. Yet, Paul wrote that eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) and that God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

So, loss of salvation cannot be shown from Scripture.

Having eternal life means having eternal security (Jn 5:24).

 

[JLB]

I don't see how I conflated 1 Cor 3:14,15 with Rom 11. Please clarify. My post didn't even bring up "the vine".


I disagree with the concept of purgatory, and I don't see how one would even think of it from 1 Cor 3:15.

My understanding is that the "bad works" will simply not be rewarded. What "survives" is rewarded.


It seems this is a conflation of 1 Cor 3:14,15 with Rom 11.


Now, that I agree with! And Jesus gives eternal life to those who believe in Him. And they have it WHEN they believe, per His own words: "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life. He does NOT come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." Jn 5:24

The verb tenses here is informative. Those who believe HAVE eternal life and does NOT come into judgment.

Also, eternal life is exactly that: eternal. Those who don't have it will experience the "second death" or the lake of fire.

Those who disagree with eternal security have to prove from Scripture that God kills eternal life, or at least takes it away. Yet, Paul wrote that eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) and that God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

So, loss of salvation cannot be shown from Scripture.

Having eternal life means having eternal security (Jn 5:24).

Unfortunately for OSAS, the free gift we are given is a seed.

The Gospel Message [Word] is what we're freely given; it is the seed.

“Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Luke 8:11

Many are given this precious gift, and receive this precious gift by which they are born again.

... having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever.
1 Peter 1:23

However, like the illustration Jesus presented to His disciples, the seed received does not mean it will bear fruit.



JLB