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If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

Who thinks asking for a gift, when is received worked for it, and earned it?

  • Worked for it, and earned it!

    Votes: 1 8.3%
  • Didn't work for it, and didn't earn it!

    Votes: 11 91.7%

  • Total voters
    12
I said this:
"Why isn't there any verse that says the free gift, which is justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) are "seeds"?"
There is only one way to be saved - sorry you don't believe Jesus.
First, your comment in response to what I said has no relevance to it at all. Second, you failed to answer the question. Third, you also failed to support your earlier claim about a free gift being the gospel message.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12-13

Yes, the word of God is described in a parable as seed. But no where in Scripture is the word of God described as a free gift.

This is what the Bible describes as a free gift:
indwelling Holy Spirit - Acts 8
justification - Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17
eternal life - Rom 6:23
spiritual gifts - Rom 1:11

You made a
claim, but have failed to support your claim from Scripture. Are you going to?

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, have become un-believers!

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

The Bible NEVER describes a believer as an unbeliever. Even Jesus didn't do that. They are referred to as apostates.

When the Bible mentions unbelievers, only those who have NEVER believed are meant.

Since you are making the claim that a believer becomes an unbeliever, the ONUS is on you to support your claim from Scripture.

We know that unbelievers do NOT have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Yet, Jesus promised the gift of the Holy Spirit who would be "with us" forever.

We know that unbelievers are NOT saved, nor children of God. Yet, there is NO EVIDENCE from Scripture that any believer who no longer believes is not saved nor a child of God anymore.


again

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6-7JLB
Agricultural metaphor about usefulness or lack of being useful. Has nothing to do with loss of salvation.

Not only is eternal life a gift of God, God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 6:23 and 11:29).

Further, those who believe are sealed with the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption, proving that this seal cannot be broken before the day of redemption.

We know the seal cannot be broken because this specific seal is NEVER said to be broken by God nor anyone else.
 
John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:


Some many times i have heard Christians saying Adam and Eve did not really die...

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Apparently these Christians don't know much Scripture.
 
Acts 10:34
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Romans 2:6
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Here is one of those renderings:

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

There is no avoidance of this particular rendering NO MATTER WHAT THE WORKS ARE.

Romans 2:11
For there is no respect of persons with God.

James 2:1
My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

If some theology clown claims their dead natural body because of SIN dwelling in it had a better performance, they are not looking at the dead because of sin body's RIGHTFUL END.

 
Here is the amount of RESPECT Paul gave his own DEAD because of SIN, BODY:

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

The disciples of Christ are called to HATE their own lives, because we live our lives of faith in Christ in a DEAD BODY because of the sin dwelling in it, and the evil present with us.

Luke 14:26
If any man
come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also,

he cannot be my disciple.


 
We might take these sights further, and ask, did any dead because of sin body, with evil present, blinded in mind by the god of this world, (2 Cor. 4:4) under the power of darkness, of Satan (Acts 26:18) all of a sudden, of it's OWN sole accord, bring itself to LIFE in Christ?

Probably not likely a'tall if we look at the example Paul gave us, although I am absolutely certain that the lying dead because of sin body with evil present would like to take lying FULL credit for it every time.

1 Timothy 1:13
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
 
What I did refute was your claim that the gospel message is a gift of God. There is zero evidence for that from Scripture. Let's keep things biblical.

You don't pay for the Gospel, and you don't earn the Gospel Message.

It's a free gift to those who believe.

Here is what the bible actually says, about being saved.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12-13


Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, have become un-believers!


13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a whileand in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

again

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6-7


JLB
 
"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." Jn 5:24


The context of what Jesus said in John 5:24 -

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this;for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:24-29

Jesus explains clearly and thoroughly over and over that those in the graves that HEAR HIS VOICE will and believe... the dead who hear His Voice...


Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

  • those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
  • and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

JLB
 
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I don't see how I conflated 1 Cor 3:14,15 with Rom 11. Please clarify. My post didn't even bring up "the vine".
The conflation was between 1 Cor 3 and John 15. You responded to my comments on John 15 (post #918) by citing 1 Cor 13. (your post #917)
I disagree with the concept of purgatory, and I don't see how one would even think of it from 1 Cor 3:15.
I don't buy the Purgatory concept either.
I see the seed of the idea of Purgatory in the 1 Cor 3 passage.
1Co 3:12-15 (RSV) Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw--each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
MY: Someone who does no good works (does not bear fruit) is separated from the only source of Life (Jesus, the "vine"). If you are "cut off" from Jesus, you are "Cut off" from eternal life."
It seems this is a conflation of 1 Cor 3:14,15 with Rom 11.
I was talking about John 15 only.
Those who disagree with eternal security have to prove from Scripture that God kills eternal life, or at least takes it away.
Not at all.
The word "eternal" is an adjective which describes the word "life." It is not an adverb which describes the word "has."
The life which the believer has is eternal but the having is only eternal IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. (COL 1:23) and IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST. (Heb 3:14) because IF a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, HE WILL DIE. (EZE 18:24)
And those citations are in complete agreement with John 15. (NIV)
Jhn 15:1-2 I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
Jhn 15:6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.


iakov the fool
:boing

You have chosen to subject yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. No warrantee is declared or implied. Individual mileage may vary.
Enjoy the rest of your day.
 
I said this:
"What I did refute was your claim that the gospel message is a gift of God. There is zero evidence for that from Scripture. Let's keep things biblical."
You don't pay for the Gospel, and you don't earn the Gospel Message.
So what? Where does the Bible describe the gospel message as a gift of God? Please answer instead of continuing to dodge the question.

It's a free gift to those who believe.
No it isn't. The free gift is salvation itself. Eternal life. Not the message.

Here is what the bible actually says, about being saved.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12-13
I don't see any words about a message being a free gift here. I think you are confused.

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, have become un-believers!

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a whileand in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13
I know you love to say that, even though it isn't even close to the truth.

Once a believer, always saved, always a son, always born again, always justified, always forgiven.

Where does the Bible teach that ANY of these 5 things can be or have been taken away from anyone?

hint: no where is where.
 
I said this:
"Those who disagree with eternal security have to prove from Scripture that God kills eternal life, or at least takes it away."
Not at all.
The word "eternal" is an adjective which describes the word "life." It is not an adverb which describes the word "has."
I never said it was an adverb or treated it as one. The key is that the life that God gives is eternal. It has no end.

So my statement stands as valid. Unless one can show from Scripture that God either kills this "eternal life" or takes it away from one who He has given it to, there is no reason to accept loss of salvation.

The life which the believer has is eternal but the having is only eternal IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. (COL 1:23) and IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST. (Heb 3:14) because IF a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, HE WILL DIE. (EZE 18:24)
And those citations are in complete agreement with John 15. (NIV)
No, they are not. But I understand that you think so.

Neither Col 1:23, Heb 3:14 or Eze 18:24 says that the life that God gives is "only eternal if you continue…". That's your add-on to Scripture, for which Scripture condemns.

Jhn 15:1-2 I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
Jhn 15:6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
You're going to have to do more than just quote a verse as if that proves anything. You're going to have to prove by exegesis that these verses actually speak of loss of salvation.

Just assuming something is so, doesn't necessarily make it so.
 
No it isn't. The free gift is salvation itself. Eternal life. Not the message.


Are you saying you have to earn the Message, or buy the Message?


Can a person be born again, without hearing the message?

22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever.
1 Peter 1:22-23

  • You have to obey the truth of the message.
  • You have to hear the message of the Gospel to be born again.
  • You have to hear the message to receive the faith. ( Faith comes by hearing...) Romans 10:17

Faith that comes from hearing the Gospel is a gift.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8

Faith without the work of obedience is dead, like a body without the spirit is dead. James 2:26


What we receive is the word, which is the seed.

“Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:11-12

Without the seed, there is no salvation.

The devil took the seed, and therefore took their salvation...

as it is written, ... lest they should believe and be saved.


JLB
 
I said this:
"The free gift is salvation itself. Eternal life. Not the message."
Are you saying you have to earn the Message, or buy the Message?
I really cannot understand how anyone would come up with such a question from what I said. Where in the world would one get any idea of earning or buying from what I said? It's simply baffling that anyone would ask this.

You had claimed that the free gift is the gospel message. Remember? And I challenged that by asking for Scripture that says as much. Yet, no verse has yet to be provided to support your claim. Instead of providing any evidence, all you'd done is ask these very strange questions, none of which have anything to do with my posts.

Can a person be born again, without hearing the message?
Of course not. Rom 10:13

22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever.
1 Peter 1:22-23
To "obey the truth" means to believe in the sacrificial work of Christ on your behalf. Or what you've called "repent".

Faith that comes from hearing the Gospel is a gift.
Do you really not understand that "faith that comes from hearing" means when one hears AND believes the gospel message, they are saved?

"Faith" as a noun refers to the "body of what we believe", i.e. the Christian faith. When we believe the Christian faith regarding God's promise of eternal life through believing in Christ, we are saved. It seems you don't believe that.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8
The "it" refers to salvation. To "have faith" means to believe in Jesus Christ for eternal life. It seems you don't believe that.

“Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:11-12

Without the seed, there is no salvation.
Of course. The "seed" is the word of God. And one must believe the word of God regarding how to be saved, which Paul answered directly to the jailer.

The devil took the seed, and therefore took their salvation…
It doesn't say that at all. In fact, it is clear from the wording that they NEVER believed. That's what "lest" means. It means unless. iow, unless they believe, they will NOT be saved.

So again, even the verse you quote refutes your notions. One is saved when one believes the gospel.

as it is written, ... lest they should believe and be saved.
JLB
Exactly! Glad to see you're on my side. :)
 
It doesn't say that at all. In fact, it is clear from the wording that they NEVER believed. That's what "lest" means. It means unless. iow, unless they believe, they will NOT be saved.

Of course they din't believe, because by believing they are saved.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:11-13

The word was sown in their heart.
The devil took the word, the Gospel Message, the seed, out of their heart.... and by taking the seed, the word, he took their salvation.

That is the point I made.

...then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts,...

The next group did in fact believe, and they were saved, because that is the means by which a person is saved... believing the Gospel, in which they are born again.

  • But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

....who
believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.


These who believe for a while were saved for a while, unless you believe showhow that these who did believe, were not saved?

These that did believe were in fact saved... for a while, then they went back to their unbelief.

Now, it's up to you to provide scriptures that teach us that "unbelievers" are saved.

OSAS - :wave



JLB
 
Of course they din't believe, because by believing they are saved.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:11-13

The word was sown in their heart.
The devil took the word, the Gospel Message, the seed, out of their heart.... and by taking the seed, the word, he took their salvation.

Understandings ARE taken. Deceptions/lusts/temptations are given in their stead, in the flesh by our ENEMIES. We all see only in part after all is said and done.

That does not mean that Jesus, The Seed, was not planted or Him, departed.

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

2 Timothy 2:13
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Probably should give credit to the faithful seed in these equations?
 
Understandings ARE taken. Deceptions/lusts/temptations are given in their stead, in the flesh by our ENEMIES. We all see only in part after all is said and done.

That does not mean that Jesus, The Seed, was not planted or Him, departed.

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

2 Timothy 2:13
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Probably should give credit to the faithful seed in these equations?


Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13



JLB
 
Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

JLB

Still doesn't mean Jesus departed the premises.

The notions of the ROTATING in and out Christ are NOT true.
 
Of course they din't believe, because by believing they are saved.
Well, of course. That was my point. But your post suggested that they had believed, but that satan took away their faith. Which, of course, the verse clearly does not say.

This is what you actually said about Luke 8:12: "The devil took the seed, and therefore took their salvation…"

Unless they believed, they WEREN'T saved. My point.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:11-13

The word was sown in their heart.
Not in the first soil's heart. They never believed. It was not sown in their hearts.

The devil took the word, the Gospel Message, the seed, out of their heart.... and by taking the seed, the word, he took their salvation.
The first soil was NEVER saved because they NEVER believed. That is very clear in the verse.

That is the point I made.
And I have pointed out the error in your point.

...then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts,...

The next group did in fact believe, and they were saved, because that is the means by which a person is saved... believing the Gospel, in which they are born again.

Also my point all along.

believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Once saved, ALWAYS saved, ALWAYS a child of God, ALWAYS justified, ALWAYS forgiven, ALWAYS a new creature with eternal life, a gift of God that is irrevocable.

These who believe for a while were saved for a while
The verse clearly does NOT say this. This is mere unbiblical speculation. An opinion sans evidence.

unless you believe showhow that these who did believe, were not saved?
They believed, and they were saved. Period. And then they fell away from their faith. Yet, the Bible very clearly teaches that even when we are faithless (second soil), God remains faithful. Why? Because God cannot deny Himself. 2 Tim 2:13 - If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

How does this verse refer to eternal security? Because every believer is given the indwelling Holy Spirit, about whom Jesus Himself said will be with us forever. Do you believe what Jesus promised or not? I do.


These that did believe were in fact saved... for a while, then they went back to their unbelief.
Yeppers. And still saved. Because even when we are faithless, God remains faithful and cannot deny Himself.

Now, it's up to you to provide scriptures that teach us that "unbelievers" are saved.
No need to prove any such nonsense. An unbeliever is one who NEVER believed. A "former believer" is never called an unbeliever in the Bible. That seems to be just your fantasy. The Bible calls them apostates.

But since the gift of eternal life is irrevocable, eternal security is biblical.
 
Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.
This is an unsubstantiated opinion.

There is no Scripture that teaches that one is saved only WHEN one continues to believe. Or what verse have you found that says such a thing?
 
This is an unsubstantiated opinion.

There is no Scripture that teaches that one is saved only WHEN one continues to believe. Or what verse have you found that says such a thing?

As anyone can plainly see, you are the one posting your opinion, and are denying what the scripture says.

I posted scripture.

You post opinion.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Those who believe "for a while" are saved... for a while.

There are two possible ways to understand what Jesus is teaching.

  1. those who believe for a while, are saved, because they in fact "believed", but only for a while, but then they no longer believe, and return to being unbelievers.
  2. those who believe for a while are saved, and they continue to be saved, though they no longer believe.

What is common to both scenario's is that the believed and were saved...

If you believe number to be the case then please share as to why you believe a person who no longer believes, continues to be saved...
with the corresponding scripture that you draw your belief from.


Here is what Paul taught -

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Hebrews 3:12-14



"Depart" is the same expression that Jesus used, when He said "fall away".

G 868 - Strong's - aphistēmi
  1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
    1. to excite to revolt
  2. to stand off, to stand aloof
    1. to go away, to depart from anyone
    2. to desert, withdraw from one
    3. to fall away, become faithless
    4. to shun, flee from
    5. to cease to vex one
    6. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
    7. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from
This is the meaning that Jesus convey's to us as He encourages us to abide, "remain connected" to Him, that the eternal life that comes from Him will continue to benefit us;
...those who are connected to Him.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 16:5-6

Believe for a while = saved for a while



JLB
 
The key is that the life that God gives is eternal. It has no end.
Right. The gift which Christ gives is eternal life and eternal life, by definition, has no end.
But any individual's POSSESSION of that gift can be brought to an and.
It's like my father giving me a car as a graduation gift. If I abandon the car, it still remains a car but I no longer possess it.
So my statement stands as valid. Unless one can show from Scripture that God either kills this "eternal life" or takes it away from one who He has given it to, there is no reason to accept loss of salvation.
I can show from scripture that eternal life can be lost. I've done it multiple times but OSAS folk seem to be blinded to those scriptures. :crying
Here's your very own personal copy. (Enjoy!):)
(1) JN 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit,

15:5-6 I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. IF ANYONE DOES NOT REMAIN IN ME, HE IS LIKE A BRANCH THAT IS THROWN AWAY AND WITHERS; SUCH BRANCHES ARE PICKED UP, THROWN INTO THE FIRE AND BURNED.

(2) RO 11:17-22 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For IF GOD DID NOT SPARE THE NATURAL BRANCHES, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER. CONSIDER THEREFORE THE KINDNESS AND STERNNESS OF GOD: STERNNESS TO THOSE WHO FELL, BUT KINDNESS TO YOU, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS. OTHERWISE, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.

(3)1CO 9:27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

(4) 1CO 10:12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!

(5) HEB 3:12-14 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. WE HAVE COME TO SHARE IN CHRIST IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

(6) HEB 6:4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, IF THEY FALL AWAY, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

(7) PHP 11-14 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

(8 )2Pe 1:5-10 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IF YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL,

(9) 2PE 2: 20-21 IF THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE CORRUPTION OF THE WORLD BY KNOWING OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST AND ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED IN IT AND OVERCOME, THEY ARE WORSE OFF AT THE END THAN THEY WERE AT THE BEGINNING. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

Neither Col 1:23, Heb 3:14 or Eze 18:24 says that the life that God gives is "only eternal if you continue…". That's your add-on to Scripture, for which Scripture condemns..
Again, (you seem to have not grasped this point) "eternal life" is, by definition, eternal; HAVING or POSSESSING it is not, by definition, eternal.

And you seem to be having the same difficulty with regard to what the word "IF" means that former President Billy-Jeff Clinton had with the word, "IS." ("That depends on what the word "is" means.")

The word "if" introduces a conditional situation and necessarily includes the possibility of that situations opposite. The words "provided that" do the same thing in Col 1:23. (and you need to look at the whole sentence which begins at v. 21.)

So when Paul wrote: "And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister." (Col 1:21-23 RSV) The words "provided that you continue in the faith" necessarily include the real possibility of NOT continuing in the faith and that is a condition which would result in no longer being reconciled to God. (ie: not saved)
You're going to have to do more than just quote a verse as if that proves anything. You're going to have to prove by exegesis that these verses actually speak of loss of salvation. Just assuming something is so, doesn't necessarily make it so.
I am assuming nothing. The scriptures I provided you say in very plain English that a believer can lose his/her salvation by not continuing in the faith. A believer has the ability to make a free will choice to turn his/her back on God and go back to the living death of no longer being united to Christ. When we accept God's gift of eternal life, He does not confiscate our free will and thereby diminish His likeness in us.

Yet again, EZE 18:24 "... if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

But you believe what you like. You can believe that, in spite of what God said by the prophet Ezekiel, if a righteous (ie: "saved") man quits being righteous and goes back to doing wicked and detestable things (which is what defines the behavior of the "unsaved"), he is still saved. God just doesn't happen to agree with that notion and has said so multiple times for those who have eyes to see.

iakov the fool



You have chosen to subject yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. No warrantee is declared or implied. Individual mileage may vary. Enjoy the rest of your day.
 
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