If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

[JLB]

And they have it WHEN they believe, per His own words: "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life. He does NOT come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." Jn 5:24

OSAS thrives on teaching the young and unlearned believer, their unbiblical doctrine, by taking out of context many scriptures such as this one, and teaching half truths, rather than the whole counsel of God.

The context of what Jesus said in John 5:24 -

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:24-29


Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,

• and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Same exact thing Paul taught us.

Romans 2 -

• 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
• 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

JLB

 

[smaller]

OSAS thrives on teaching the young and unlearned believer, their unbiblical doctrine, by taking out of context many scriptures such as this one, and teaching half truths, rather than the whole counsel of God.

The context of what Jesus said in John 5:24 -

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:24-29

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,

• and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Same exact thing Paul taught us.

Romans 2 -

• 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
• 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

JLB

And many more teach that in order to believe God in Christ saves, they must believe that God in Christ can destroy a believer forever in fire, rather than save them. Which is entirely upside down and backwards sights of an actual SAVIOR. That picture will never compute.

Saul on the road to Damascus didn't ask for the intervention of God in Christ into his life. Saul obtained the Mercy of God in Christ entirely unwarranted and not sought whatsoever, on Saul's part. Saul was, in actuality, a vehement persecuting injurious blasphemer and vile unbeliever. Which makes his conversion all the more interesting.

1 Timothy 1:13
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

IF Saul obtained Gods Mercy in this manner, how can any believer LOSE that hold? It was not something of themselves to begin with, but an Active Working of The Word, in the world. Heb. 4:12.

It is God Alone who works His Mercy in and through Christ. It was only His to give to start with.

 

[JLB]

And many more teach that in order to believe God in Christ saves, they must believe that God in Christ can destroy a believer forever in fire, rather than save them. Which is entirely upside down and backwards sights of an actual SAVIOR. That picture will never compute.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Those who find themselves in Him... can indeed, later wind up being gathered up and thrown into the fire and burned.


Those who choose to walk in the flesh and gratify the sinful desires of the flesh, rather than walk in the Spirit, have chosen the way of death.

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh... Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16,19-21


....those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

... will not inherit the kingdom of God.



JLB

 

[smaller]

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Those who find themselves in Him... can indeed, later wind up being gathered up and thrown into the fire and burned.

Those who choose to walk in the flesh and gratify the sinful desires of the flesh, rather than walk in the Spirit, have chosen the way of death.

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh... Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16,19-21


....those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

... will not inherit the kingdom of God.

JLB

Scriptures more than sufficiently detail why the flesh is doomed. 1 Cor. 15:43-49 is the reality of the flesh.

God gives us the gift of eternal life in Christ. It was only His to give. It is only His to complete. Jesus is both Author and Finisher, regardless if any continue to see it, or not.

Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[FreeGrace]

Unfortunately for OSAS, the free gift we are given is a seed.

Why isn't there any verse that says the free gift, which is justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) are "seeds"?

The Gospel Message [Word] is what we're freely given; it is the seed.

And this isn't the free gift. The message isn't the gift. The gift is the result of believing the message.

“Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Luke 8:11

Many are given this precious gift, and receive this precious gift by which they are born again.

Only to those who have believed the message. And again, the message isn't the precious gift.

... having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever.
1 Peter 1:23

Being born again, through faith in Christ, is a gift.

However, like the illustration Jesus presented to His disciples, the seed received does not mean it will bear fruit. JLB

Sure. I've never argued that believing in Christ will bear fruit. That's why the Bible repeatedly commands believers to bear fruit.

But not for salvation.

"23 Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men,
24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ."
Col 3:23,24 ESV

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"And they have it WHEN they believe, per His own words: "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life. He does NOT come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." Jn 5:24"

OSAS thrives on teaching the young and unlearned believer, their unbiblical doctrine, by taking out of context many scriptures such as this one, and teaching half truths, rather than the whole counsel of God.

False claim. No evidence from Scripture to support this claim.

The context of what Jesus said in John 5:24 -

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:24-29

OK, you've quoted a passage. So where does your false claim fit in? Quoting verses without any explanation doesn't advance the discussion 1 millimeter.

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,

• and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Oh, I see. We are saved by our works, huh? That is directly in conflict with the entire Bible. We are saved by grace, through faith, NOT OF WORKS, lest anyone (JLB included) should boast. Eph 2:8,9

Same exact thing Paul taught us.
Romans 2 -

• 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
• 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,JLB

However, Paul actually clarified those verses a bit further on in Romans, for those who are really serious about the "whole council of God" as you pointed out at the beginning of your post.

So, if you are really interested in the whole council, consider what Paul THEN wrote:
What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin Rom 3:9 ESV

and,
"as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;" Rom 3:10 ESV

Then he wrote this:
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Rom 3:23 ESV

So much for anyone who actually has "continued in doing good" and thereby earning eternal life.

The WHOLE reason Jesus had to die for the sins of mankind is precisely BECAUSE no one does good. And NO ONE has or will ever earn eternal life.

Eternal life is described by Paul as a gift of God:
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 6:23 ESV

And, just for clarity's sake, let's not forget this about the gifts of God:
"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." Rom 11:29 ESV

This is irrefutable.

 

[FreeGrace]

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh... Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16,19-21
....those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
... will not inherit the kingdom of God.JLB

This is how one receives the inheritance:

"23 Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men,
24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ."

Inheritance is earned. Salvation is a free gift. It seems many have confused this.

 

[JLB]

Scriptures more than sufficiently detail why the flesh is doomed. 1 Cor. 15:43-49 is the reality of the flesh.

God gives us the gift of eternal life in Christ. It was only His to give. It is only His to complete. Jesus is both Author and Finisher, regardless if any continue to see it, or not.

Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Scripture does not detail how the flesh is doomed, (as if your physical body is somehow separate from you), but it does detail how people who choose to walk in the flesh, and set their mind on the flesh, and present their bodies as a slave to sin, are doomed.
[Romans 8:1-6 - Romans 6:16 - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - 2 Peter 2:20-22]

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16


Obviously it is up to you, to obey this command, to avoid fulfilling the sinful desires of the flesh.

Here is a short list of some works of the flesh...

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like;...


Here are the consequences of practicing the works of the flesh -

...of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:21


Now, if you choose to ignore this warning, and make up "reasons" and "excuses" as to why this warning from the Holy Spirit, through the Apostle Paul, somehow doesn't really mean what it says, or that the phrase, "will not inherit the kingdom of God", doesn't really mean; being sentenced to the everlasting fires of hell along with the devil and his angels, [Matthew 25:31-46] that's ok.

You can believe what you choose to believe.



JLB

 

[JLB]

"23 Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men,
24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ."

Amen:

Here is Jesus describing our reward, on that day -

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:31-34


JLB

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"And they have it WHEN they believe, per His own words: "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life. He does NOT come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." Jn 5:24"

False claim. No evidence from Scripture to support this claim.


OK, you've quoted a passage. So where does your false claim fit in? Quoting verses without any explanation doesn't advance the discussion 1 millimeter.

Oh, I see. We are saved by our works, huh? That is directly in conflict with the entire Bible. We are saved by grace, through faith, NOT OF WORKS, lest anyone (JLB included) should boast. Eph 2:8,9
However, Paul actually clarified those verses a bit further on in Romans, for those who are really serious about the "whole council of God" as you pointed out at the beginning of your post.

So, if you are really interested in the whole council, consider what Paul THEN wrote:
What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin Rom 3:9 ESV

and,
"as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;" Rom 3:10 ESV

Then he wrote this:
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Rom 3:23 ESV

So much for anyone who actually has "continued in doing good" and thereby earning eternal life.

The WHOLE reason Jesus had to die for the sins of mankind is precisely BECAUSE no one does good. And NO ONE has or will ever earn eternal life.

Eternal life is described by Paul as a gift of God:
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 6:23 ESV

And, just for clarity's sake, let's not forget this about the gifts of God:
"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." Rom 11:29 ESV

This is irrefutable.

• What is irrefutable is that we are given the seed, the Gospel message by which we are born again.

22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23

• What is also irrefutable is that we receive the salvation of our soul, at the end, not the beginning.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith,being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9



JLB

 

[smaller]

Scripture does not detail how the flesh is doomed, (as if your physical body is somehow separate from you),

Yes, the flesh is DOOMED.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

but it does detail how people who choose to walk in the flesh, and set their mind on the flesh, and present their bodies as a slave to sin, are doomed.
[Romans 8:1-6 - Romans 6:16 - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - 2 Peter 2:20-22]

No dead body, because of SIN, is going to be obedient or lawful or "in faith." It's preposterous to "make" it so because it is DEAD because of SIN dwelling in it.

You can breath eternal threatening damnation fire to that DEAD BODY all you please and it won't change it's condition of fact.

 

[smaller]

John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.

Believest thou this?

I might even suggest that it is the unbeliever who does not believe this.

 

[JLB]

Why isn't there any verse that says the free gift, which is justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) are "seeds"?

There is only one way to be saved - sorry you don't believe Jesus.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12-13


Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, have become un-believers!

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

again

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6-7


JLB

 

[JLB]

Yes, the flesh is DOOMED.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

The physical body will indeed die, and will be resurrected at His coming.

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29



Scripture does not detail how the flesh is doomed, (as if your physical body is somehow separate from you), but it does detail how people who choose to walk in the flesh, and set their mind on the flesh, and present their bodies as a slave to sin, are doomed.
[Romans 8:1-6 - Romans 6:16 - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - 2 Peter 2:20-22]

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16


Obviously it is up to you, to obey this command, to avoid fulfilling the sinful desires of the flesh.

Here is a short list of some works of the flesh...

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like;...


Here are the consequences of practicing the works of the flesh -

...of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:21

Now, if you choose to ignore this warning, and make up "reasons" and "excuses" as to why this warning from the Holy Spirit, through the Apostle Paul, somehow doesn't really mean what it says, or that the phrase, "will not inherit the kingdom of God", doesn't really mean; being sentenced to the everlasting fires of hell along with the devil and his angels, [Matthew 25:31-46] that's ok.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16

It's your choice.


JLB

 

[smaller]

There is only one way to be saved - sorry you don't believe Jesus.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12-13


Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, have become un-believers!

John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.

Believest thou this?

There is no avoiding the death of the flesh, because of sin that dwells in it. There is no way to "doctor" it up that will prove otherwise. The natural man dies, period. And does so because of sin.

 

[reba]

John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Some many times i have heard Christians saying Adam and Eve did not really die...

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[FreeGrace]

• What is irrefutable is that we are given the seed, the Gospel message by which we are born again.

What I did refute was your claim that the gospel message is a gift of God. There is zero evidence for that from Scripture. Let's keep things biblical.

What is also irrefutable is that we receive the salvation of our soul, at the end, not the beginning.

So just one verse to drive your theology? That's pretty thin, imho.

But, let's consider what Jesus said about that:
"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." Jn 5:24

I have to assume that everyone understands the meaning of "has". As in "has eternal life". When does one HAVE eternal life, according to Jesus? WHEN they believe: "whoever believes HAS eternal life".

This isn't refutable, nor arguable.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith,being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9JLB

Why would anyone assume the phrase "end of faith" refers to the end of one's life?

The phrase "end of your faith" refers to the immedate result of one's faith in Christ: that is, salvation.

Just as Jesus clearly indicated in Jn 5:24.

 

[FreeGrace]

John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.

Believest thou this?

I might even suggest that it is the unbeliever who does not believe this.

No, seems there are a number of believers who don't believe this promise of Jesus as well. Amazing, but true.

 

[smaller]

No, seems there are a number of believers who don't believe this promise of Jesus as well. Amazing, but true.

I would say such have fallen from Grace and do not believe. But I have more confidence in Christ for them than what they see for themselves.

These instead quite futility and vainly try to make the body that is dead because of sin behave and obey, when in fact the BODY is quite entirely DEAD because of sin dwelling in it.

They can blow all the commanding performance smoke and fire they please at it. It won't make any difference.

 

[smaller]

I doubt very much that God is going to be impressed by the performances of any DEAD BODY BECAUSE OF SIN DWELLING IN IT, in it's performances, as it lies, rotting in the ground, where it eventually lands.