If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

[FreeGrace]

As anyone can plainly see, you are the one posting your opinion, and are denying what the scripture says.

I posted scripture.

You post opinion.

It's really amazing how one can make such false claims all the time.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Those who believe "for a while" are saved... for a while.

And you've done it again; just state your opinion. The verse doesn't come close to meaning or saying what you keep claiming. Lu 8:13 is about believing for a while, and then falling away. But the verse doesn't say anything about falling away from salvation, as you keep assuming, or hoping, or guessing. It only means that one has stopped believing. Nothing more as you keep wanting to add.

There are two possible ways to understand what Jesus is teaching.

There is only 1 right way to divide the word of Truth.

1. those who believe for a while, are saved, because they in fact "believed", but only for a while, but then they no longer believe, and return to being unbelievers.
2. those who believe for a while are saved, and they continue to be saved, though they no longer believe.

There is absolutely no reason to assume the first one.

 

[FreeGrace]

Right. The gift which Christ gives is eternal life and eternal life, by definition, has no end.
But any individual's POSSESSION of that gift can be brought to an and.

Well, there's the rub. There are no verses that even hint of such a thing.

And make no mistake; loss of salvation would be such a huge issue if true that the Bible would most assuredly be very clear about such a thing. And yet there are NO verses telling us that we can lose our salvation. Or anything close to it.

It's like my father giving me a car as a graduation gift. If I abandon the car, it still remains a car but I no longer possess it.

Let's make this a biblical example. When your father gave you the car, he told you the gift was irrevocable. In that case, regarding of what you do to the gift, it's still yours.

However, your example fails because God's gifts cannot be returned, lost, forfeited, given away, thrown away, or anything else. When God gives the believer eternal life, they have it forever.

Unless…….you can quote verses that actually specify in clear and plain words that eternal life isn't a forever gift.

I can show from scripture that eternal life can be lost. I've done it multiple times but OSAS folk seem to be blinded to those scriptures.

I've heard this from many who reject eternal security. In EVERY case, whatever verse you think means loss of salvation can be easily explained which proves it isn't even about salvation.

Here's your very own personal copy. (Enjoy!)
(1) JN 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit,

15:5-6 I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. IF ANYONE DOES NOT REMAIN IN ME, HE IS LIKE A BRANCH THAT IS THROWN AWAY AND WITHERS; SUCH BRANCHES ARE PICKED UP, THROWN INTO THE FIRE AND BURNED.

(2) RO 11:17-22 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For IF GOD DID NOT SPARE THE NATURAL BRANCHES, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER. CONSIDER THEREFORE THE KINDNESS AND STERNNESS OF GOD: STERNNESS TO THOSE WHO FELL, BUT KINDNESS TO YOU, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS. OTHERWISE, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.

When one fails to understand agricultural metaphors, one fails to understand what Jesus said. The verses in John are about being in fellowship (abiding in Me) in order to produce fruit. Not staying saved to produce fruit.

The Romans passage is about being of service to God. Apart from faith, God cannot use you.

(3)

1CO 9:27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

If you want to believe that salvation is a prize, that's your freedom. But salvation is a gift, not a prize. Paul was speaking of eternal rewards.

[QUOTE](4) 1CO 10:12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall![/QUOTE]
Why would anything be so confused as to think this is about losing salvation? Maybe an explanation with exegesis would be nice.

(5) HEB 3:12-14 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. WE HAVE COME TO SHARE IN CHRIST IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

Where is the warning of loss of salvation here? There is NONE. To "share in Christ" has to do with reigning with Him as a result of obedience. It's a reward.

(6) HEB 6:4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, IF THEY FALL AWAY, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Where does it say anything about loss of salvation. There's just a whole lot of assuming going on.

(7) PHP 11-14 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Where is there any mention of loss of salvation here? I see none. You're going to have to point out the words and then explain WHY they mean what you think they mean.

(8 )2Pe 1:5-10 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IF YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL,

If you would only continue on to the very next verse, which is about having, not just an entrance into the kingdom, but an ABUNDANT ENTRANCE into the kingdom. iow, reward for obedience and faithfulness.

(9) 2PE 2: 20-21 IF THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE CORRUPTION OF THE WORLD BY KNOWING OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST AND ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED IN IT AND OVERCOME, THEY ARE WORSE OFF AT THE END THAN THEY WERE AT THE BEGINNING. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

Again, there is NOTHING about loss of salvation, no matter how hard to want to believe that there is. The phrase "at the end" refers to the guaranteed FACT of God's hand of discipline for such believers. iow, their lives on earth will be a lot worse off than when they first believed. iow, they're going to get spanked a lot.

Again, (you seem to have not grasped this point) "eternal life" is, by definition, eternal; HAVING or POSSESSING it is not, by definition, eternal.

That's just laughable. The life God gives CANNOT be revoked. Don't you know or understand Rom 11:29?

 

[JLB]

That's just laughable. The life God gives CANNOT be revoked. Don't you know or understand Rom 11:29?

What's so sad is you have built a theology on one verse, that doesn't contain the word eternal or life.

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:29 KJV

This word doesn't even mean what the modern version of the word means.

It means without regret. Strong's G 278 - not repentant of, unregretted

God's gift's and call to Israel are without regret, even though they have rejected them.


Further more you ignore the context leading up to this verse that does in fact show that God's people, who are connected to Him, can indeed be removed from Him, because of disobedience.

Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Romans 11:20-21


How can you possible believe and lead people into a totally unbiblical doctrine, based on one misinterpreted scripture, and disregard the clear context of what Paul taught.

...if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

Jesus said the same exact thing, which you also ignored.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

What's so sad is you have built a theology on one verse, that doesn't contain the word eternal or life.

Hardly one verse. I've shown the many verses that teach eternal security many times. But it's up to each person to accept the Word of God or not.

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:29 KJV

The obvious reason Paul didn't specify "eternal life" in that verse is because he had already clearly specified what he meant by "gifts of God".

Ready for them? Here goes:
1:11 spiritual gifts
3:24, 5:15,16,17 justification
6:23 eternal life

Now, the problem for your opinion is that you need to prove from Scripture that Paul specifically didn't mean to include eternal life from the "gifts of God" that ARE irrevocable in 11:29.

Are you able to do that? Just claiming that the words "eternal life" don't occur in 11:29 is ridiculous. Because he already specified what God's gifts are.

This word doesn't even mean what the modern version of the word means.

Do you have better credentials than all the Greek scholars who are content with "irrevocable"?

It means without regret. Strong's G 278 - not repentant of, unregretted

So, explain to me what Paul was trying to say here then.

God's gift's and call to Israel are without regret, even though they have rejected them.

OK, where does Paul even mention "gifts to Israel" anywhere in Romans? If there isn't any verse that mentions "gifts to Israel, why should I accept your opinion about it? You contend that "eternal life" doesn't occur in 11:29, but neither does any indication or reference about Israel in 11:29.

I've shown that Paul previously described eternal life, justification and spiritual gifts as gifts of God before he wrote 11:29. You've done nothing of the kind about your opinion of so-called "gifts to Israel".

In fact, there is no such thing as "gifts to Israel". Anywhere in the entire Bible.

Further more you ignore the context leading up to this verse that does in fact show that God's people, who are connected to Him, can indeed be removed from Him, because of disobedience.

They are removed from service to Him. Which I've explained repeatedly. Recall that the Jews were quite proud of their election by God. They had a huge superiority complex about being God's chosen people. They thought they were better than everyone else. But Paul was saying that God discards from service anyone who doesn't trust Him. And that includes even believers. iow, He doesn't use those who don't trust Him.

Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Romans 11:20-21

Yep. There is it: "He may not spare you either". Even believers who aren't trusting Him won't be used by Him for service.

This would easily include anyone who doesn't trust His promise and sealing with the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption. God can't use such Christians because they don't really trust His promise for the day of redemption.

How can you possible believe and lead people into a totally unbiblical doctrine, based on one misinterpreted scripture, and disregard the clear context of what Paul taught.

The question really needs to be given to you.

 

[JLB]

The obvious reason Paul didn't specify "eternal life" in that verse is because he had already clearly specified what he meant by "gifts of God".

Sorry, your opinion just got interjected in the scripture thus blinding you to the truth.

Go back and read the scripture and stop making up your own version of what you "think" the scripture means, by saying such things as "obviously what Paul meant"...

We can read just fine, and can see what Paul is saying, in plain easy to understand language.

We don't need you to "filter" the bible through your "post modern", "re-defined" liberal "re-packaged" hyper-grace theological "mindset".

Either you believe what Paul said, or you don't.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Romans 11:19-21

...if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

...He may not spare you either.


Jesus warned us also...

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Read what is said, plainly and straightforward.

• ...if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
• If anyone does not abide in Me... into the fire, and they are burned.

You can't repackage the truth of what Jesus said as well as Paul, in an attempt to explain it away.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Sorry, your opinion just got interjected in the scripture thus blinding you to the truth.

Go back and read the scripture and stop making up your own version of what you "think" the scripture means, by saying such things as "obviously what Paul meant"…

Until someone can prove that Rom 11:29 doesn't mean what Paul previously described as "gift of God", there is no reason to assume that he didn't mean eternal life in Rom 11:29.

So, when will someone prove that Paul did not mean eternal life in Rom 11:29?

We can read just fine, and can see what Paul is saying, in plain easy to understand language.

OK, show me in context what he meant by "gifts of God", then.

We don't need you to "filter" the bible through your "post modern", "re-defined" liberal "re-packaged" hyper-grace theological "mindset".

None of your words or quote signs mean a thing. I gave you what Paul meant by "gifts of God" before he wrote 11:29, but you just don't like it.

Either you believe what Paul said, or you don't.

I absolutely do believe what he wrote. But it is clear that you don't.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Romans 11:19-21

How come there isn't any mention of "gifts of God" here? The deal is to show what Paul meant by "gifts of God" in 11:29. But one will have to REJECT what Paul actually described as "gifts of God" in order to continue to reject eternal security, as you have done.

So, because Paul DID describe justification and eternal life as gifts, you're view is in quite a quandry.

You believe that "gifts of God" in 11:29 refer to some gifts to Israel, but you haven't yet provided any evidence to support that opinion.

So, what gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29?

 

[JLB]

Until someone can prove that Rom 11:29 doesn't mean what Paul previously described as "gift of God", there is no reason to assume that he didn't mean eternal life in Rom 11:29.

LOL.

Just because you deny the truth of what Romans 11 says... and try to re-package it to fit your hyper-grace theology, makes no difference.

But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you...
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;... 2 Peter 2:1,4

Peter uses the same phrase as Paul, to warn us not to take lightly the precious gift we have been given.

For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Romans 11:21

So, what gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29?

The gifts and calling are without regret, though some reject their's, while others simply don't understand, and are never fruitful.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:11-13

The reason many don't understand what they have been given, is because of false teachers convincing them that they can live anyway they choose, and are never in danger of losing the precious gift they were given.

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?...
21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:16,21-23

Eternal life is IN CHRIST JESUS our Lord.

As long as a person remains IN CHRIST JESUS, they have eternal life that is IN HIM.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

The scriptures do in fact warn us that we can become disconnected from Him, and wind up cast into the fire and burned.

The Lord does not want this, but unfortunately because of false teaching, there are those who will disregard these warnings, so plainly stated in the scriptures.



JLB

 

[WIP]

Warning!!
This thread is growing out of my control. There are too many short, snarky little jabs thrown out there that do nothing toward edifying the other person but rather incites negative reactions and serves to puff up the chest of the poster. If this continues, I will delete entire posts without explanation.

 

[JLB]

How come there isn't any mention of "gifts of God" here? The deal is to show what Paul meant by "gifts of God" in 11:29.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

The gift of God is eternal life IN Christ Jesus, as long as a person remains IN Christ Jesus, then they have eternal life.

What I have asked you to show, is scriptures that teach us we continue to have eternal life, though we have been REMOVED FROM Christ Jesus our Lord.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; John 15:1-2

These were IN HIM, then they were removed.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

These were IN HIM...
These same ones ended up cast into the fire and burned.

You have yet to show us any proof from the scriptures, that teach us a person who is removed from Christ still has eternal life.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
Until someone can prove that Rom 11:29 doesn't mean what Paul previously described as "gift of God", there is no reason to assume that he didn't mean eternal life in Rom 11:29.

LOL.

Sorry, but I don't see anything funny in my comment or ib Rom 11:29.

Just because you deny the truth of what Romans 11 says... and try to re-package it to fit your hyper-grace theology, makes no difference.

I've given the truth, which is what Paul said. So I've "re-packaged" nothing. And my view isn't hyper-grace, as you charge, but biblical grace.

But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you...
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;... 2 Peter 2:1,4

I don't see how this applies to eternal vs conditional security.

Peter uses the same phrase as Paul, to warn us not to take lightly the precious gift we have been given.

Whether one abuses God's grace and does take the precious gift lightly has no effect on one's guaranteed salvation.

For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Romans 11:21

We've already been through this.

The gifts and calling are without regret, though some reject their's, while others simply don't understand, and are never fruitful.

The ONLY way to receive the gift is to believe in Christ. I'm unaware of anyone who has ever said they reject the gift that they've received. Your hypothetical is unreasonable.

btw, abandoning the faith isn't the same as rejecting it. It's simply not believing any more. I think we should stick with reality instead of hypotheticals.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:11-13

Jesus clearly taught that some believe for a while, and then stop believing because of testings, temptations, etc. But there isn't anything in the parable to even suggest that one will lose salvation if one ceases to believe. Nor is there any such teaching anywhere else in Scripture. Which is why I don't believe such a notion.

The reason many don't understand what they have been given, is because of false teachers convincing them that they can live anyway they choose, and are never in danger of losing the precious gift they were given.

There is no teaching in Scripture that the irrevocable precious gift can be lost. If there were, it would have been provided by now.

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?...
21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:16,21-23

OK. And? God's gift, which is clearly described here as eternal life, is also irrevocable because Paul said so in Rom 11:29.

Eternal life is IN CHRIST JESUS our Lord.

Correct. And Paul clearly taught in Eph 1;13 and 14 that when one believes, they are SEALED with the Holy Spirit, promised FOR the day of redemption. iow, eternal security.

As long as a person remains IN CHRIST JESUS, they have eternal life that is IN HIM.

And we see from Eph 1:13 and 14 that every believer has been SEALED with the Holy Spirit IN CHRIST.

"13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory." Eph 1;13,14

I really don't know how it could be said any more clear that what Paul said about it. Those who have believed are sealed. As a pledge, or promise. And we all know that God never lies, or goes back on any of His promises. If youy have a different view than that, you're going to have to show me from Scripture where God did either lie or go back on any of His promises.

Then, Paul wrote this: "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." Eph 4:30. So we know WHY we have been sealed; for the day of redemption.

Therefore, Paul clearly taught eternal security in Ephesians.

If anyone does not abide

in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

The scriptures do in fact warn us that we can become disconnected from Him, and wind up cast into the fire and burned.

Except "not abide" does not mean "disconnected". Where does that idea come from, since it doesn't come from John 15:6 or anywhere else in Scripture? Please advise.

 

[FreeGrace]

You have yet to show us any proof from the scriptures, that teach us a person who is removed from Christ still has eternal life.JLB

Actually, you haven't show any proof from Scripture that anyone ever has been "removed from Christ". What verse tells us that one can be removed from Christ. I don't find such language or wording anywhere in the Bible.

 

[smaller]

James 1:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Ephesians 1:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Philippians 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Hebrews 7:25
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Even when the wrath of men seek to sever the calling and those called into the BOND of Christ, they are just blowing dragon smoke to try to cut the ties.

There is A DIVINE TIE that can not be cut.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There is A DIVINE TIE that can not be cut.

Paul warns the Corinthians of the cutting of the 'divine tie' that they will experience if they do not hold fast to the gospel:

1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

The Corinthians...

1) heard the gospel
2) received the gospel
3) are standing in that gospel
4) are saved by that gospel

And Paul tells them they stand in and are saved by the gospel IF they hold fast the word of that gospel. Their salvation is conditioned on them holding fast the free gift they have received. Just like a person who wins the lotto, his winnings are conditioned on him holding fast to the ticket until the day it is redeemed.

Who is the person who is not holding fast the word of the gospel anymore? Obviously, the person who no longer believes. They no longer have the free gift that their believing secured for them. The believing they have done has been in vain (vs. 2).

 

[smaller]

Paul warns the Corinthians of the 'divine cut' they will experience for not holding fast to the gospel:

1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

The Corinthians...

1) heard the gospel
2) received the gospel
3) are standing in that gospel
4) are saved by that gospel

And Paul tells them they stand in and are saved by the gospel IF they hold fast the word of that gospel.

We should all understand that every last one of us have things to cut off, perpetually.

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Why not hold fast to the obvious?

In the flesh we are under constant PRUNING.

Their salvation is conditioned on them holding fast the free gift they have received. Just like a person who wins the lotto, his winnings are conditioned on him holding fast to the ticket until the day it is redeemed.

I'd have to say some believers just can't perceive their own factual conditions.

We can make demands for all the IF's, MUST's, DEMAND's and DO's we please.

None of these things will have any bearing on the OPPOSITION that we ALL have in our own flesh, which is and remains contrary to the Spirit.

When we perceive our actual state and condition, then we understand that salvation can only be by The Grace and Mercy of our Lord. We all have the built in conflict that can not be remedied until we depart this place.

Commanding it to be otherwise just ain't a happening deal.

I might add that saying this "isn't SO!" for our flesh merely turns us into liars and hypocrites, and in that we have been defeated by our own factual built in conflict with the flesh.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We can make demands for all the IF's...we please.

What is it about Paul's 'if' that you do not understand?

1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

Is the problem that these are plain words of scripture that grate against a preconceived belief that insists one will still still 'stand' in and be 'saved' by the gospel despite the 'if' of their unbelief? Explain why Paul's 'if' doesn't really mean what it so plainly says above.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I'm watching this thread very closely, for 49 pages and 975 posts.
According to some of you, we are all going to hell.
That's not what the Holy Spirit has put in my heart.
So we are not all going to hell, just some of you.
OSAS.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

According to some of you, we are all going to hell.
That's not what the Holy Spirit has put in my heart.
So we are not all going to hell, just some of you.
OSAS.

I'm with you. I'm not going to hell either. I've heard the gospel and have received it, and I am standing on it, and am saved by it, if I hold fast that which I have heard. Otherwise, all the believing I have done will have been in vain. But as it is, I'm holding fast to the gospel.

1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I'm with you. I'm not going to hell either. I've heard the gospel and have received it, and I am standing on it, and am saved by it, if I hold fast that which I have heard. Otherwise, all the believing I have done will have been in vain. But as it is, I'm holding fast to the gospel.

1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

Yes, I agree with you.
But you forgot to put your OSAS signature.

 

[FreeGrace]

Paul warns the Corinthians of the cutting of the 'divine tie' that they will experience if they do not hold fast to the gospel:

1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

The Corinthians...

1) heard the gospel
2) received the gospel
3) are standing in that gospel
4) are saved by that gospel

And Paul tells them they stand in and are saved by the gospel IF they hold fast the word of that gospel. Their salvation is conditioned on them holding fast the free gift they have received.

The Greek is clear. It is 1 word, and means to possess. iow, those who have believed the gospel possess it. It does not suggest that one must keep holding onto something, like a lifeline or something.

Just like a person who wins the lotto, his winnings are conditioned on him holding fast to the ticket until the day it is redeemed.

Since believing the gospel results in being saved WHEN one believes (Jn 5:24), this analogy fails.

Who is the person who is not holding fast the word of the gospel anymore?

One who never believed, obviously.

Obviously, the person who no longer believes.

Nope. Because eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23). And God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

They no longer have the free gift that their believing secured for them. The believing they have done has been in vain (vs. 2).

Not true, because there are no verses that tell us that one can give back, lose, or otherwise "no longer have" the free gift.

Eternal life isn't like a coin or some object that can be lost, misplaced, etc. But eternal life is a changed life, being born again.

There simply are no verses that teach that salvation can be lost. Or we'd have seen the verses by now. But we haven't seen any such verses.

 

[FreeGrace]

What is it about Paul's 'if' that you do not understand?

That wasn't the problem or issue. It was the meaning of "hold fast". It means to possess. As in eternal life, which is a gift of God that is irrevocable.