If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

[FreeGrace]

Yes Eternal life is in His Son, which is why this same John has defined for us eternal as knowing God and Jesus Christ.

Please don't forget that Paul defined eternal life as a gift of God. Which is irrevocable.

Just as a branch can not receive life from the vine if it does not remain connected in relationship to the Vine, so we can not continue to receive eternal life from Jesus if we do not remain connected to Him.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

The branches were in Him, then they were cast out, and were removed from Him.
JLB

This is just a confusion of relationship for fellowship. They are different, just as a marital relationship is different than the fellowship (or not) between the husband and wife. Or between parent and child.

And the Bible uses both terms to describe spiritual relationship and spiritual fellowship. But it seems that this is totally unfamiliar territory to some. Which is why the errors in understanding.

 

[JLB]

Which has nothing to do with the gift of eternal life, which is IRREVOCABLE. Which is irrefutable.

Broken off because of unbelief is the context of Romans 11:29, that's is why the calling is still available.

Those who were broken off are still called, and can be grafted back in, if they don't continue in unbelief.

Your whole theology is built on the premise that it's impossible for anyone to be broken off, yet those who are called in verse 29 are the broken off ones. 2

If they do not continue in unbelief, is clear.


JLB

 

[JLB]

This is just a confusion of relationship for fellowship.

No confusion about thrown in the fire and are burned...

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Broken off because of unbelief is the context of Romans 11:29, that's is why the calling is still available.

Sure the calling is still available. God's call is IRREVOCABLE. Just as the gifts of justification and eternal life are IRREVOCABLE.

Those who were broken off are still called, and can be grafted back in, if they don't continue in unbelief.

Your whole theology is built on the premise that it's impossible for anyone to be broken off, yet those who are called in verse 29 are the broken off ones. 2

Looks like the lil mouse is kinda cold. Maybe he needs a sweater.

If they do not continue in unbelief, is clear.
JLB

What IS clear is how some twist Scriptures to suit their own theological errors.

The call is about service, not salvation. Being broken off is about losing the privilege of service to God. Not loss of salvation.

iow, as long as the Jews are unbelieving, they CANNOT be of service to God. Though they thought, as the elect nation, they were God's privileged servants. And they were wrong. Just as your view of the passage is wrong.

 

[FreeGrace]

No confusion about thrown in the fire and are burned...

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6JLB

Seems there is still quite a bit of confusion. Jesus was using an agricultural metaphor. And again, He was speaking about being useful to the Father. Those who don't continue in fellowship with Him (not abide in Me) will be cast aside instead of being useful.

When the Bible uses metaphors to refer to hell or the lake of fire, we see adjectives, such as:

Matt 18:8 - “If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.

Matt 25:41 - “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Jude 7 - just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

If one doesn't see such adjectives attached to "fire" it is only weak speculation to assume the writer is referring to either hell or the lake of fire.

 

[JLB]

Sure the calling is still available. God's call is IRREVOCABLE. Just as the gifts of justification and eternal life are IRREVOCABLE.

The context shows the call is to those who have been "broken off" because of unbelief.

The calling is to them, that if the do not continue in unbelief, they can be grafted back in.

These that were broken off must believe in order to be grafted back in.

What you are suggesting is they can not possibly be broken off in the first place.

Likewise we are admonished not to fall into unbelief lest we ourselves be "broken off".

JLB

 

[JLB]

Seems there is still quite a bit of confusion. Jesus was using an agricultural metaphor. And again, He was speaking about being useful to the Father. Those who don't continue in fellowship with Him (not abide in Me) will be cast aside instead of being useful.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Jesus said these that are removed from Him, will be gathered and thrown into the fire.

The fire He is referring to is hell.


JLB

.

 

[FreeGrace]

The context shows the call is to those who have been "broken off" because of unbelief.

As I pointed out, those who are unbelievers cannot be of service to God. When they believe, they can be of service.

How does this not work for the passage?

The calling is to them, that if the do not continue in unbelief, they can be grafted back in.
These that were broken off must believe in order to be grafted back in.
What you are suggesting is they can not possibly be broken off in the first place.

No, I'm NOT saying that at all. Please read my posts.

Likewise we are admonished not to fall into unbelief lest we ourselves be "broken off".
JLB

Exactly! Those who do fall into unbelief cannot be of service to God.

The issue of "calling" is about service, not salvation. That may be the problem with your misunderstanding.

 

[FreeGrace]

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Jesus said these that are removed from Him, will be gathered and thrown into the fire.

The fire He is referring to is hell.
JLB.

No it isn't. I showed from Scripture WHEN "fire" does refer to hell. Jesus was using an agricultural metaphor when He spoke about branches being thrown into the fire. It had nothing to do with salvation, and all to do with service.

John 15:4-7
4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

If this verse refers to salvation, then we are in charge of our own salvation. That is not taught anywhere in Scripture.

This passage is about fellowship. No believer can produce fruit UNLESS they are abiding in Christ. That is fellowship.

Believers are either IN fellowship with Christ or OUT of fellowship at any given point. This is based on whether the believer is living for themself (carnal, self centered, etc) or living for the Lord in obedience and faithfulness. Apparently this teaching isn't familiar to you. Shame on your pastor.

No believer can grow up spiritually UNLESS they are in fellowship with Christ. When IN fellowship, the believer IS being "filled with the Spirit" per Eph 5:18 and is "walking by means of the Spirit per Gal 5:16.

When OUT of fellowship, the believer IS grieving the Spirit per Eph 4:30 and quenching the Spirit per 1 Thess 5:19.

Are any of these points familiar to you?

 

[JLB]

As I pointed out, those who are unbelievers cannot be of service to God. When they believe, they can be of service.

How does this not work for the passage?


No, I'm NOT saying that at all. Please read my posts.


Exactly! Those who do fall into unbelief cannot be of service to God.

The issue of "calling" is about service, not salvation. That may be the problem with your misunderstanding.

The calling is to salvation, just as the context teaches.

Unbelief is the key word, used by Paul, that teaches us he is referring to salvation.

20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Romans 11:20-21

"Broken off", yet "you stand by faith" is referring to salvation by faith.

"God did not spare the natural branches", "He may not spare you"...

I guess there is just no end to how far you would go, in twisting the scriptures to prop up your man made doctrine... trying to say this language of "broken off through unbelief", "standing by faith", and "God may not spare you either if you don't continue"
Is merely a reference to "service" is unethical.


JLB

 

[JLB]

No it isn't. I showed from Scripture WHEN "fire" does refer to hell. Jesus was using an agricultural metaphor when He spoke about branches being thrown into the fire. It had nothing to do with salvation, and all to do with service.

I see, so you are teaching that people "in Christ", that are connected to Him in relationship, then removed from Him, and gathered up and throw into the fire, really means "removed from service".


JLB

 

[JLB]

This passage is about fellowship. No believer can produce fruit UNLESS they are abiding in Christ. That is fellowship.

It a reference to Covenant Relationship.

In Christ is a reference to being in Covenant Relationship, as a man and woman in a covenant relationship, and have become one.

if you are not connected to Him in relationship, as a branch is connected to the Vine, then you no longer have access to the eternal life that the Vine provides to the branch.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

The calling is to salvation, just as the context teaches.

In fact, that is incorrect. As I explained, and you've brought NO refutation to the table. Just a repetition of your view, all without support.

Unbelief is the key word, used by Paul, that teaches us he is referring to salvation.

He was referring to the FACT that the Jewish nation changed from a nation of believers to a nation of unbelievers, just going through the motions of the Law. When the million or so Jews left Egypt, they were believers in Messiah, as Paul very clearly notes in 1 Cor 10. But over time, the nation became a nation of unbelievers.

He wasn't speaking of individual Jews who at one time believed and then ceased to believe.

The whole of ch 11 is about the nation of Israel, compared and contrasted with the rest of humanity, called "Gentiles".

20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Romans 11:20-21
"Broken off", yet "you stand by faith" is referring to salvation by faith.
"God did not spare the natural branches", "He may not spare you"...

I guess there is just no end to how far you would go, in twisting the scriptures to prop up your man made doctrine... trying to say this language of "broken off through unbelief", "standing by faith", and "God may not spare you either if you don't continue"
Is merely a reference to "service" is unethical.JLB

When one actually pays attention to ALL the words, one sees quite a different picture than the one being painted here.

The "they" in v.20 is key. Paul was referring to Jews in general, as a nation of people. Not individuals.

Even v.1 shows us the context for the entire chapter by Paul asking this question: "Did God reject His people?" Who are His people? The Jews. All of them.

Then, in v. 11 Paul brings in the Gentiles and makes contrast between 2 groups of peoples; Jews and Gentiles.

Seems your view treats ch 11 as speaking about individual people when it does not. God used His people when they were believers, but when the nation became one of unbelievers, He wasn't able to use them and instead had to discipline them, up to and including having them taken over by other nations.

And you've STILL NOT described anything in ch 11 as a gift of God. Oh, you've made up some stuff about what Paul meant, but since he did not define what you've made up as a gift, your view is only twisting v.29.

Paul is the ONLY authority on what he meant by 'gift of God'. And he provided the reader EXACTLY what he meant by actually defining 'gift of God' as both justification and eternal life.

And these are irrevocable, which you've failed to refute.

 

[FreeGrace]

I see, so you are teaching that people "in Christ", that are connected to Him in relationship, then removed from Him, and gathered up and throw into the fire, really means "removed from service". JLB

Wrong again.

I never said that those who are "in Christ" even CAN be "removed from Him". They CAN BE removed from His service, for sure.

In fact, to be "in Christ" is just another way to understand ETERNAL SECURITY. How so? Glad you asked.

13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph 1

We note in v.13 the ORDER; having believed, you (the believer) were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit.

And this is PROMISE, or PLEDGE. From God. Who NEVER breaks His promises.

In v.14 we read that this sealing by the Holy Spirit is a PLEDGE/PROMISE of our inheritance. Then Paul makes it real clear: "with a view to the redemption of God's OWN POSSESSION.

So, all who are "in Christ" have been sealed, and have been promised redemption as God's own possession.

There is NO evidence from Scripture that this sealing with the Holy Spirit can be broken. Certainly God's promises cannot be broken.

But that's not all.

Eph 4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

What can this mean, if not ETERNAL SECURITY? Please answer.

There's more…
who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge. 2 Cor 1:22

How can this be anything other than ETERNAL SECURITY? Please answer.

And this:
Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge. 2 Cor 5:5

Again, how can this be anything other than ETERNAL SECURITY? Please answer.

I've provided very clear verses about our ETERNAL SECURITY, unless someone can refute my view of these verses and provide a solid exegetical explanation which refutes my view of them.

Those who have believed in Christ are said to be "in Christ", sealed with the Holy Spirit. We can't seal ourselves, nor can we unseal ourselves. God alone has that authority. And He has TOLD us that this sealing is a PROMISE AND PLEDGE toward what? Our redemption. That's what. Guaranteed by the promise of God Himself.

Those who reject these verses as clearly stated are rejecting the very promise of God.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"This passage is about fellowship. No believer can produce fruit UNLESS they are abiding in Christ. That is fellowship."

It a reference to Covenant Relationship.

How would one prove their claim?

In Christ is a reference to being in Covenant Relationship, as a man and woman in a covenant relationship, and have become one.

Sure. Just as my previous post explained in detail. This relationship cannot be broken.

if you are not connected to Him in relationship, as a branch is connected to the Vine, then you no longer have access to the eternal life that the Vine provides to the branch.
JLB

Except there is no "connection" between this covenant relationship and branches and root.

If there was, then Paul is severely contradictory, as I've shown from Eph and 2 Cor and the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit, who is the One who seals the believer to be "in Christ".

 

[JLB]

In fact, that is incorrect. As I explained, and you've brought NO refutation to the table. Just a repetition of your view, all without support.


He was referring to the FACT that the Jewish nation changed from a nation of believers to a nation of unbelievers, just going through the motions of the Law. When the million or so Jews left Egypt, they were believers in Messiah, as Paul very clearly notes in 1 Cor 10. But over time, the nation became a nation of unbelievers.

He wasn't speaking of individual Jews who at one time believed and then ceased to believe.

The whole of ch 11 is about the nation of Israel, compared and contrasted with the rest of humanity, called "Gentiles".


When one actually pays attention to ALL the words, one sees quite a different picture than the one being painted here.

The "they" in v.20 is key. Paul was referring to Jews in general, as a nation of people. Not individuals.

Even v.1 shows us the context for the entire chapter by Paul asking this question: "Did God reject His people?" Who are His people? The Jews. All of them.

Then, in v. 11 Paul brings in the Gentiles and makes contrast between 2 groups of peoples; Jews and Gentiles.

Seems your view treats ch 11 as speaking about individual people when it does not. God used His people when they were believers, but when the nation became one of unbelievers, He wasn't able to use them and instead had to discipline them, up to and including having them taken over by other nations.

And you've STILL NOT described anything in ch 11 as a gift of God. Oh, you've made up some stuff about what Paul meant, but since he did not define what you've made up as a gift, your view is only twisting v.29.

Paul is the ONLY authority on what he meant by 'gift of God'. And he provided the reader EXACTLY what he meant by actually defining 'gift of God' as both justification and eternal life.

And these are irrevocable, which you've failed to refute.

20 Wellsaid.Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Romans 11:20-21

Paul warns the Roman Christians, to whom he is writing to, about those who were "broken off" because of unbelief, that they themselves could in fact be broken off themselves, if the don't continue..,

Salvation is the subject, and losing salvation is the warning.

Again, your man-made theory has been easily refuted by just reading what Paul wrote plainly for all to see.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Again, your man-made theory has been easily refuted by just reading what Paul wrote plainly for all to see.
JLB

This is hardly a refutation. It expresses only an opinion. And since there are always various "interpretations" of nearly every verse, it is laughable that one would use this as a defense. Exegesis is required to refute anyone's interpretation.

I've given interpretation. You have not.

In post #135 I asked several specific questions. The failure to even address any of them shows just how indefensible your view is.

 

[JLB]

This is hardly a refutation. It expresses only an opinion. And since there are always various "interpretations" of nearly every verse, it is laughable that one would use this as a defense. Exegesis is required to refute anyone's interpretation.

I've given interpretation. You have not.

In post #135 I asked several specific questions. The failure to even address any of them shows just how indefensible your view is.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Funny, your post contains no scripture.

...those people represented here by the branches that were connected to Him, are removed from Him and thrown into the fire.

Go ahead and twist this to mean something else.

So much for OSAS!


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Funny, your post contains no scripture.

No, it's SAD that I you've ignored all the Scriptures that I HAVE posted.

In post #134 these are the verses and questions that you've totally ignored:

"I never said that those who are "in Christ" even CAN be "removed from Him". They CAN BE removed from His service, for sure.

In fact, to be "in Christ" is just another way to understand ETERNAL SECURITY. How so? Glad you asked.

13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph 1

We note in v.13 the ORDER; having believed, you (the believer) were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit.

And this is PROMISE, or PLEDGE. From God. Who NEVER breaks His promises.

In v.14 we read that this sealing by the Holy Spirit is a PLEDGE/PROMISE of our inheritance. Then Paul makes it real clear: "with a view to the redemption of God's OWN POSSESSION.

So, all who are "in Christ" have been sealed, and have been promised redemption as God's own possession.

There is NO evidence from Scripture that this sealing with the Holy Spirit can be broken. Certainly God's promises cannot be broken.

But that's not all.

Eph 4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

What can this mean, if not ETERNAL SECURITY? Please answer.

There's more…
who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge. 2 Cor 1:22

How can this be anything other than ETERNAL SECURITY? Please answer.

And this:
Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge. 2 Cor 5:5

Again, how can this be anything other than ETERNAL SECURITY? Please answer.

I've provided very clear verses about our ETERNAL SECURITY, unless someone can refute my view of these verses and provide a solid exegetical explanation which refutes my view of them.

Those who have believed in Christ are said to be "in Christ", sealed with the Holy Spirit. We can't seal ourselves, nor can we unseal ourselves. God alone has that authority. And He has TOLD us that this sealing is a PROMISE AND PLEDGE toward what? Our redemption. That's what. Guaranteed by the promise of God Himself.

Those who reject these verses as clearly stated are rejecting the very promise of God."

So please don't perpetuate the lie that I don't include Scripture in my posts. Why do you keep ignoring what I post?

When will there be any comment about these verses and what they mean, if in fact they don't mean what I have shown them to mean?

 

[Kidron]

Do we have to "ask" and "recieve" to get salvation? If we don't ask and recieve, do we still get it? Are these merely conditions for acceptance or are we EARNING salvation by asking and recieving, which is obeying God?

Now, let's take the words "charitable acts" and "baptism" and substitute them for "ask" and "recieve".

Do we have to do charitable acts and be baptized to get salvation? If we don't act charitably and be baptized, do we still get it? Are these merely conditions for acceptance or are we EARNING salvation by acting charitably and being baptized, which is obeying God?

Try it like this.

Have a Buddhist, who is not familiar with the Cross, get randomly Water Baptized in the "name of the F-S-HS".
Then have them work for the rest of their life helping the Lepers in India.
What happens to this Buddhist when He dies???
He goes to hell like a bullet, then later, the eternal lake of fire.
How is this?
Its because the Blood of Jesus has never paid for their sins, so THEY are going to pay for them.
JESUS pays for Sins, or WE are going to pay for ours, and that is "damnation", that is "going to hell".
So, because the Buddhist was never told the GOSPEL, and never believed it, then God never was able to give them the sin pardon = "the gift of righteousness".
Thus.... they died IN THEIR SINS = eternally lost because they never receive the pardon that is paid for by the blood of Christ = LOST because they never understood their need of forgiveness, and they were never born again by BELIEVING in Christ, AFTER they heard the Gospel.
This is why Jesus said...."you will die IN YOUR SINS, if you dont believe in me, if you dont believe i am he, the Messiah".