If it's possible for men to remit sins

[chestertonrules]

Actually, the Bible isn't always literal. No one stands in the place of Jesus Christ. His glory will not be given to another and it's the glory of God to forgive sins and allow men peace. Not yours or mine.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."

Matt 16
19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

 

[ronniechoate34]

Actually, the Bible isn't always literal. No one stands in the place of Jesus Christ. His glory will not be given to another and it's the glory of God to forgive sins and allow men peace. Not yours or mine.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."

Matt 16
19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

M't:6:1: Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
M't:6:2: Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
M't:6:3: But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
M't:6:4: That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
M't:6:5: And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
M't:6:6: But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
M't:6:7: But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
M't:6:8: Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
M't:6:9: After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
M't:6:10: Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
M't:6:11: Give us this day our daily bread.
M't:6:12: And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
M't:6:13: And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
M't:6:14: For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
M't:6:15: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.


Ti:3:1: Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
Ti:3:2: To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
Ti:3:3: For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
Ti:3:4: But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Ti:3:5: Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Ti:3:6: Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Ti:3:7: That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Ti:3:8: This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Ti:3:9: But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
Ti:3:10: A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
Ti:3:11: Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

 

[glorydaz]

Actually, the Bible isn't always literal. No one stands in the place of Jesus Christ. His glory will not be given to another and it's the glory of God to forgive sins and allow men peace. Not yours or mine.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."

Matt 16
19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

And these verses all speak to our preaching the gospel message. We're to shake the dust off our feet if the gospel is continually rejected. We are only the body carrying out the commission given us by our head, Jesus Christ.

 

[chestertonrules]

Actually, the Bible isn't always literal. No one stands in the place of Jesus Christ. His glory will not be given to another and it's the glory of God to forgive sins and allow men peace. Not yours or mine.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."

Matt 16
19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

And these verses all speak to our preaching the gospel message. We're to shake the dust off our feet if the gospel is continually rejected. We are only the body carrying out the commission given us by our head, Jesus Christ.

These verses don't apply to us, they apply to the apostles and their successors.

We are to listen to their message, not create our own message.

 

[glorydaz]

And these verses all speak to our preaching the gospel message. We're to shake the dust off our feet if the gospel is continually rejected. We are only the body carrying out the commission given us by our head, Jesus Christ.

These verses don't apply to us, they apply to the apostles and their successors.

We are to listen to their message, not create our own message.

We are the body of Christ....believers are the apostles' successors.
We are a priesthood of believers...our head is Christ, so, yes, these verses do apply to us.

 

[A-Christian]

believers are the apostles' successors.

Not according the early Christians. Christian history tells us differently.

 

[chestertonrules]

We are the body of Christ....believers are the apostles' successors.
We are a priesthood of believers...our head is Christ, so, yes, these verses do apply to us.

That's just not true. It is not consistent with scripture or the early Church.

Jesus gave specific authority to the apostles. He granted them the ability to pass on this authority.

We are to listen to them.

John 17

Jesus Praying for the Apostles:
16They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.


Jesus Prays for All Believers :
20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.

 

[francisdesales]

Yeah. if that's what my practices are. But I don't practice those things. Besides, what do you know about how I relate to women?

It is an example to show how a sin is not private, but effects others, as well.

Actually, the Bible isn't always literal. No one stands in the place of Jesus Christ. His glory will not be given to another and it's the glory of God to forgive sins and allow men peace. Not yours or mine.

Proof positive that you do not consider the Bible the Word of God, you just pretend you do... This response tells me that it's the world according to Ronnie, rather than the plain literal Word of God...

 

[francisdesales]

We are the body of Christ....believers are the apostles' successors.
We are a priesthood of believers...our head is Christ, so, yes, these verses do apply to us.

This is like saying all Americans are the President of the United States because Obama is an American (supposedly...). All members of a set do not necessarily share identical properties. You've taken math classes, correct?

The Apostles' successors were drawn from believers, but only certain men had the laying of hands by the elders performed, so AS to continue the ministry within specific communities, such as Paul tasking Timothy and Titus - NOT ALL BELIEVERS - to guard the faith once given. Read the beginning of TImothy and Titus. Successors of the Apostles were specific men, not all believers...

 

[glorydaz]

believers are the apostles' successors.

Not according the early Christians. Christian history tells us differently.

I see no actual apostolic succession in the Word except those who share the gospel message.
Apostles aren't even mentioned in the founding churches...1 and 2 Timothy and Titus.
The apostles were messengers...Jesus was the first, then the 12 with Mathias added and Paul.
They are the ones who saw Jesus and testified of Him, and set the doctrine of the church.

And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

These men were chosen by Christ for a purpose...there are no successors to them.

For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

Signs and wonders were with them.

Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

The apostles were those chosen by Christ to lay the foundation for the church built upon the chief corner stone, Christ Jesus.

Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

The foundation has been built, now the building is fitly framed together (the body of Christ)

Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

Now we have the elders and deacons in leadership position with the gifts of the Spirit given to the members of the body. The closest thing we have to apostles (messengers) are missionaries. Each member of the body is given gifts to minister to the rest of the body. Even James, the brother of Jesus is called a messenger. Those that came after Paul are messengers.

 

[glorydaz]

We are the body of Christ....believers are the apostles' successors.
We are a priesthood of believers...our head is Christ, so, yes, these verses do apply to us.

That's just not true. It is not consistent with scripture or the early Church.

Jesus gave specific authority to the apostles. He granted them the ability to pass on this authority.

We are to listen to them.

John 17

Jesus Praying for the Apostles:
16They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.


Jesus Prays for All Believers :
20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.

Jesus did give the apostles special authority...they were first-hand witnesses.
But the prayer was not for them ALONE....we are all sent for we all have Christ in us and the Holy Spirit to give us the power to preach the good news.

We are all members of the body called to preach the good news....that's why missionaries are sent out. This is how the church grows and more members are added to the body of Christ.

Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

After these things the LORD appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

 

[ronniechoate34]

Actually, the Bible isn't always literal. No one stands in the place of Jesus Christ. His glory will not be given to another and it's the glory of God to forgive sins and allow men peace. Not yours or mine.

Proof positive that you do not consider the Bible the Word of God, you just pretend you do... This response tells me that it's the world according to Ronnie, rather than the plain literal Word of God...

Let me clear this up. I don't believe that Jesus Christ literally gave any man the power to remit sins. This is one of those passages that is easily taken the wrong way unless we allow the Bible to interpret itself.

 

[glorydaz]

We are the body of Christ....believers are the apostles' successors.
We are a priesthood of believers...our head is Christ, so, yes, these verses do apply to us.

This is like saying all Americans are the President of the United States because Obama is an American (supposedly...). All members of a set do not necessarily share identical properties. You've taken math classes, correct?

The Apostles' successors were drawn from believers, but only certain men had the laying of hands by the elders performed, so AS to continue the ministry within specific communities, such as Paul tasking Timothy and Titus - NOT ALL BELIEVERS - to guard the faith once given. Read the beginning of TImothy and Titus. Successors of the Apostles were specific men, not all believers...

LOL...Yes, I have taken math classes. :nod

We guard the faith every single day...even right here on this forum.

Unlike public office, believers are all equal in Christ. As far as in the assembly, we have elders and deacons and we have the various gifts as the Lord pleases. There is a laying on of hands for several things....commissioning for the work of the Lord, healing the sick, and blessings. There is no hierarchy with God. Those in the positions of leadership are to be servants and setting the example for those in the assembly. It's the Holy Spirit that gives the gifts severally as He will.
Even the Apostles were humble and situated AMONG the brethern.

Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:

While the elders are leaders..they lead by example as servants to the assembly for we have but one master. Elders is always listed in the plural because the danger comes when one man is put over someone else.

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

 

[francisdesales]

We guard the faith every single day...even right here on this forum.

Unlike public office, believers are all equal in Christ.

In one manner, yes, we are equal. We will all have to give an account of ourselves before God. However, more is expected of those given more "talents". The Holy Spirit gives gifts to the Church, and not all equally. Agree? Some are prophets. Not everyone. Some are teachers. Not everyone. Some are elders. Not everyone. And with those gifts come particular responsibilities. Paul even said that if he didn't proclaim the Gospel, he feared being disqualified (1 Cor 9). He was charged with a task, and we see several parables on this theme.

Thus, I heartedly disagree that all are equal in all senses of the word. The very fact that there are elders WITH the power to lay hands, or elders who were CALLED when someone was sick gives us an indication that they had specific gifts given to them that the first communities recognized. One of those gifts was the power to forgive sins - not just my interpretation, but all early Christians.

Although you are trying mightily to defend your position, I fear that you have very little to stand on here. Christian Scriptures and History give us a warrant for this idea.

As far as in the assembly, we have elders and deacons and we have the various gifts as the Lord pleases. There is a laying on of hands for several things....commissioning for the work of the Lord, healing the sick, and blessings. There is no hierarchy with God.

You have contradicted yourself, because God Himself has established an hierarchy. There has always been one, whether OT or NT. The People of God has ALWAYS lived with an hierarchy. God in heaven doesn't live within an hierarchy, but we aren't talking about God, we are talking about the Body of Christ, the Church, here on earth. While here, we live within an hierarchy for the building up of the Body in Love.

Perhaps you do not believe that Love and Authority can co-exist?

Those in the positions of leadership are to be servants and setting the example for those in the assembly. It's the Holy Spirit that gives the gifts severally as He will.
Even the Apostles were humble and situated AMONG the brethern.

Of course, that is not the point. The power to forgive sins is a gift given to the community by Christ Himself through particularly gifted men. The gift of leadership is also a gift from God that no one deserves. Having the power from God to forgive sins does not preclude humble service for the Body in providing the gift of reconciliation to people, just as Paul wrote the Corinthians (2 Cor 5).

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Let me clear this up. I don't believe that Jesus Christ literally gave any man the power to remit sins. This is one of those passages that is easily taken the wrong way unless we allow the Bible to interpret itself.

Let me clear this up. You do not believe that the Bible is the Word of God... The Bible has been interpreted and the Christian community has always believed that Jesus gave men the power to free or retain sins confessed. Why did John write this around 90 AD? Because it was already practised.

Just because you don't like it means nothing to the big picture, God's revelation to mankind. It becomes apparent that someone needs a conversion...

 

[ronniechoate34]

Let me clear this up. I don't believe that Jesus Christ literally gave any man the power to remit sins. This is one of those passages that is easily taken the wrong way unless we allow the Bible to interpret itself.

Let me clear this up. You do not believe that the Bible is the Word of God...

I don't?

 

[francisdesales]

Let me clear this up. I don't believe that Jesus Christ literally gave any man the power to remit sins. This is one of those passages that is easily taken the wrong way unless we allow the Bible to interpret itself.

Let me clear this up. You do not believe that the Bible is the Word of God...

I don't?

You don't act like it. It says "A" quite plainly, but you believe that's a misprint or something...

 

[glorydaz]

Although you are trying mightily to defend your position, I fear that you have very little to stand on here. Christian Scriptures and History give us a warrant for this idea.
Regards

Where do you see the apostles forgiving sin?
This verse seems to be the only one that comes close to making that claim.

It was blasphemy to even claim a man could forgive sin...the pharisees didn't believe Jesus was God.

Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

John 20 is speaking of peaching the gospel of the forgiveness of sin.

Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

This is the forgiving we're to do...

And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Only God can forgive sin.

I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;

Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

Out of the depths have I cried unto thee, O LORD. Lord, hear my voice: let thine ears be attentive to the voice of my supplications. If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand? But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared.

That said...I feel kinda silly arguing with a Catholic about this. :shades
We both love the Lord and our sins were forgiven at the cross.
Peace :halo

 

[francisdesales]

Although you are trying mightily to defend your position, I fear that you have very little to stand on here. Christian Scriptures and History give us a warrant for this idea.

Where do you see the apostles forgiving sin?
This verse seems to be the only one that comes close to making that claim.

It was blasphemy to even claim a man could forgive sin...the pharisees didn't believe Jesus was God.
"Mark 2:7" Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

glory, let me try one more approach, and then we'll call it a day!

I was thinking about this yesterday, and your reference to Mark made me think of the Matthew version of this story. In there is an interesting verse. Bear with me now and let's see the mindset of these people, these first Christians (since they are the ones who felt that they could confess to a man and have sins forgiven, correct?)

The section is Matthew 9:2-8. I would like to direct your eyes to this verse in particular...

"When the crowds saw it, they were filled with awe, and they glorified God, WHO HAD GIVEN SUCH AUTHORITY TO HUMAN BEINGS" Matthew 9:8 (RSV)

What authority?

Forgiveness of sins, that is the subject of Matthew 9:2-8. The Pharisees also thought as you do now. "This man is blaspheming". The crowd saw, with approval, that the man was forgiven, based upon his physical healing. Now remember, these people didn't know Jesus was God!

They were JOYOUS that humans had been given this authority, glory!!!

Now, again...

"Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained." John 20:23 (RSV)

Now, please note, NO ONE thought Jesus was God in the flesh during the time of Matthew 9. They saw the evidence of Jesus teachings being verified by His work. Could a blasphemer heal a paralytic? And so the crowd realized that yes, particular men HAD been given the authority to forgive sins

John naturally makes that quite clear. Matthew said that Jesus had been given ALL authority on heaven and earth (said after the resurrection). John cites Jesus giving the power reserved for God to the Apostles (after the resurrection). The people had already seen that God had given humans the power and authority to forgive sins (Matthew 9:8).

Now, if you look into the minds of the first Christians, not your anachronistic view of how the bible should be read, can you see WHY Christians felt it as perfectly normal to practice confessing sins in public and knowing that the elders could forgive them (James 5)? Sacramental Confession is just the continuance of this 2000 year practice.

That said...I feel kinda silly arguing with a Catholic about this. :shades
We both love the Lord and our sins were forgiven at the cross.
Peace :halo

[/quote]

I understand your point of view and I thank you for allowing me to express mine. I hope you can see that there is indeed Scriptural and Historical warrant for the practice, and phsycologically, it is a useful thing in the healing process.

Regards

 

[ronniechoate34]

I guess if I listen to the Catholic church then it's entirely possible for me to bypass Jesus Christ all together and attain forgiveness from men. Men that have no idea if my sorrow is true or if I am simply being a hypocrite. One things for sure though. The Catholics deny Jesus Christ as their only savior. That's been made abundantly clear to me. Why do they need Jesus Christ when they have his equals hiding in closets listening to people confesses their sins to them?