If it's possible for men to remit sins

[francisdesales]

I guess if I listen to the Catholic church then it's entirely possible for me to bypass Jesus Christ all together and attain forgiveness from men. Men that have no idea if my sorrow is true or if I am simply being a hypocrite. One things for sure though. The Catholics deny Jesus Christ as their only savior. That's been made abundantly clear to me. Why do they need Jesus Christ when they have his equals hiding in closets listening to people confesses their sins to them?

One things for sure though...

You don't believe the Bible is the Word of God.

Thus, your opinions on Christian matters do not interest me...

 

[ronniechoate34]

I guess if I listen to the Catholic church then it's entirely possible for me to bypass Jesus Christ all together and attain forgiveness from men. Men that have no idea if my sorrow is true or if I am simply being a hypocrite. One things for sure though. The Catholics deny Jesus Christ as their only savior. That's been made abundantly clear to me. Why do they need Jesus Christ when they have his equals hiding in closets listening to people confesses their sins to them?

One things for sure though...

You don't believe the Bible is the Word of God.

Thus, your opinions on Christian matters do not interest me...

Neither do yours interest me.

 

[turnorburn]

then can't we just fool men into forgiving us? I mean couldn't a person simply sin willingly and maliciously over and over again if all they have to do to be forgiven is confess in a closet, and, have a man tell them that their sins are forgiven?


I'll bet it would be super easy to fool the priest every time I asked for forgiveness. That is if I wanted to fool a priest into forgiving me I could according to the Catholic doctrine, and so could anyone else. But since I don't want to fool anyone in order to to enter heaven, and my High Priest is Jesus Christ, I think I'll be entering in through the straight gate and not trying to climb the walls to get in.

Men can only forgive sins if they are acting for Jesus.

Think you can fool Jesus?

Why should any man need to "act for Jesus" when we can come directly to the throne?

Man cannot see our heart...neither does he have the power to forgive sins.

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Man is not the discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
But we do have a high priest who has all things opened to His sight.
[quote="Heb. 4:13-14":w83e4474]Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

[/quote:w83e4474]

 

[turnorburn]

then can't we just fool men into forgiving us? I mean couldn't a person simply sin willingly and maliciously over and over again if all they have to do to be forgiven is confess in a closet, and, have a man tell them that their sins are forgiven?


I'll bet it would be super easy to fool the priest every time I asked for forgiveness. That is if I wanted to fool a priest into forgiving me I could according to the Catholic doctrine, and so could anyone else. But since I don't want to fool anyone in order to to enter heaven, and my High Priest is Jesus Christ, I think I'll be entering in through the straight gate and not trying to climb the walls to get in.

Men can only forgive sins if they are acting for Jesus.

Think you can fool Jesus?

Why should any man need to "act for Jesus" when we can come directly to the throne?

Man cannot see our heart...neither does he have the power to forgive sins.

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Man is not the discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
But we do have a high priest who has all things opened to His sight.
[quote="Heb. 4:13-14":2lmvm59x]Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

[/quote:2lmvm59x]

Isn't there a forum for Catholics?

 

[Free]

It seems there is a need to remind everyone to address the arguments and not attack people. :gah

Isn't there a forum for Catholics?

No. There is a forum for debating Catholic beliefs but Catholics are free to post anywhere.

 

[turnorburn]

It seems there is a need to remind everyone to address the arguments and not attack people. :gah

Isn't there a forum for Catholics?

No. There is a forum for debating Catholic beliefs but Catholics are free to post anywhere.

I'm sorry Free and for that I apologize to you and anyone I offended.

turnorburn

I came back to address that..

 

[francisdesales]

...Catholics are free to post anywhere.

2 3

 

[Free]

It seems there is a need to remind everyone to address the arguments and not attack people. :gah

Isn't there a forum for Catholics?

No. There is a forum for debating Catholic beliefs but Catholics are free to post anywhere.

I'm sorry Free and for that I apologize to you and anyone I offended.

turnorburn

I came back to address that..

It's all good. Sometimes things don't come out the way we mean it.

...Catholics are free to post anywhere.

2 3

lol

 

[glorydaz]

The section is Matthew 9:2-8. I would like to direct your eyes to this verse in particular...

"When the crowds saw it, they were filled with awe, and they glorified God, WHO HAD GIVEN SUCH AUTHORITY TO HUMAN BEINGS" Matthew 9:8 (RSV)

What authority?

Forgiveness of sins, that is the subject of Matthew 9:2-8. The Pharisees also thought as you do now. "This man is blaspheming". The crowd saw, with approval, that the man was forgiven, based upon his physical healing. Now remember, these people didn't know Jesus was God!

The scribes and Pharisees were right about the fact that only God can forgive sin, but they were wrong about Christ, because He is God. In fact, the divine ability Jesus demonstrated by reading their thoughts was evidence of His omniscience. He knew what was in the heart of the sick man and He knew what was in the minds of the scribes and Pharisees because He is God.

The people thought the man was paralized because of his sin, so the scribes, not believing Jesus was God come in the flesh, believed He was blaspheming. Any man who claimed to forgive sin would be cursed.

He that saith unto the wicked, Thou are righteous; him shall the people curse, nations shall abhor him:

Sin is trangression against God. Only the Lamb of God can cover the sins of men. All power is given to Jesus. Only God can look into the heart of man to see if there is guile.

Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Now, please note, NO ONE thought Jesus was God in the flesh during the time of Matthew 9. They saw the evidence of Jesus teachings being verified by His work. Could a blasphemer heal a paralytic? And so the crowd realized that yes, particular men HAD been given the authority to forgive sins

Now, if you look into the minds of the first Christians, not your anachronistic view of how the bible should be read, can you see WHY Christians felt it as perfectly normal to practice confessing sins in public and knowing that the elders could forgive them (James 5)? Sacramental Confession is just the continuance of this 2000 year practice.

Not "particular men", but certainly that man.

Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

We have the power to forgive sins against us, but only Jesus can forgive sins against God.

I understand your point of view and I thank you for allowing me to express mine. I hope you can see that there is indeed Scriptural and Historical warrant for the practice, and phsycologically, it is a useful thing in the healing process.

I can give you that, brother. Psychologically, it can be a useful thing in the healing process. I have seen it give peace and comfort to many people, and I would never want to take that away from anyone. I liken it to confessing our sins one to another...nothing wrong with that and, as you say, it can be an aid in healing our souls. :yes

All judgment is given to the Son...not even the Father judges.
How can any man be forgiven for sin against God lest the Judge deems him forgiven?

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

 

[francisdesales]

The section is Matthew 9:2-8. I would like to direct your eyes to this verse in particular...

"When the crowds saw it, they were filled with awe, and they glorified God, WHO HAD GIVEN SUCH AUTHORITY TO HUMAN BEINGS" Matthew 9:8 (RSV)

What authority?

Forgiveness of sins, that is the subject of Matthew 9:2-8. The Pharisees also thought as you do now. "This man is blaspheming". The crowd saw, with approval, that the man was forgiven, based upon his physical healing. Now remember, these people didn't know Jesus was God!

The scribes and Pharisees were right about the fact that only God can forgive sin, but they were wrong about Christ, because He is God. In fact, the divine ability Jesus demonstrated by reading their thoughts was evidence of His omniscience. He knew what was in the heart of the sick man and He knew what was in the minds of the scribes and Pharisees because He is God.

I think you are forgetting first, that NO ONE contemplated for a second that Jesus was God. I underlined the JOY that "humans have been given the authority to forgive sins". HUMANS.

Place yourself in the shoes of the first century witness... Yes, only God could forgive sins... But then, Jesus does this, a HUMAN!

Secondly, He gives this authority to the Apostles...

Indeed, God has given this authority to humans!

This is just food for thought, glory. we're good with each other.

Regards

 

[glorydaz]

I think you are forgetting first, that NO ONE contemplated for a second that Jesus was God. I underlined the JOY that "humans have been given the authority to forgive sins". HUMANS.

Place yourself in the shoes of the first century witness... Yes, only God could forgive sins... But then, Jesus does this, a HUMAN!

Secondly, He gives this authority to the Apostles...

Indeed, God has given this authority to humans!

This is just food for thought, glory. we're good with each other.

Regards

Yes, I've enjoyed our exchange.

One last thing....do you see any examples, in the Word, of the apostles doing that?

 

[francisdesales]

One last thing....do you see any examples, in the Word, of the apostles doing that?

I don't think the letters of Paul and John were intended to be a historical diary of what people did in their daily ho-hum life. Thus, the Scriptures mention little of the day-to-day activities and prayer life of the first Christians. It is difficult to make historical comments using the Bible, since it does not intend to be a historical record of such matters. Thus, "omission" is not evidence that it was not practised.

With that said, 2 Cor 2 and James 5 are examples of an apostle or elders forgiving sins, while John 20 and Matthew express the precedent that HUMANS have been given the power to forgive, from God.

I would think it odd, very odd, that John would comment on Jesus giving the power to forgive sins to the Apostles IF it was not used. remember, John said Jesus did a large number of things not included in the writings of the Gospel. WHY would John include THIS little tidbit, IF no one was practising it??? It seems inserted FOR THE SAKE OF backing up the practice.

Take care,

Joe

 

[glorydaz]

One last thing....do you see any examples, in the Word, of the apostles doing that?

I don't think the letters of Paul and John were intended to be a historical diary of what people did in their daily ho-hum life. Thus, the Scriptures mention little of the day-to-day activities and prayer life of the first Christians. It is difficult to make historical comments using the Bible, since it does not intend to be a historical record of such matters. Thus, "omission" is not evidence that it was not practised.

With that said, 2 Cor 2 and James 5 are examples of an apostle or elders forgiving sins, while John 20 and Matthew express the precedent that HUMANS have been given the power to forgive, from God.

I would think it odd, very odd, that John would comment on Jesus giving the power to forgive sins to the Apostles IF it was not used. remember, John said Jesus did a large number of things not included in the writings of the Gospel. WHY would John include THIS little tidbit, IF no one was practising it??? It seems inserted FOR THE SAKE OF backing up the practice.

Take care,

Joe

Well, we do see we're to confess our sins one to another.
But if we were called to do more than that, I'd think we'd be told explicitly.

2 Cor. isn't talking about forgiving sin. It's referring to the church barring a person from fellowship for having relations with his father's wife. Now Paul is encouraging the body to accept him back because he has obviously repented and is sorrowful for what he did. That is the forgiveness we are called to do...we forgive those who have sinned against us and this man had committed open sin while in fellowship that was first overlooked by an immature church. After calling them out, they kicked the guy out and that is why he finally repented. The elders didn't forgive his sin, they forgave his behavior because he was sorry.

Now, that said, I did a little research and found this...
"With God making appeal through him and pleading 'Be reconciled to God'" it appears we aren't as far off as I'd thought. The real difference being you believe in a ministerial position and I see that any member of the body being able to make the appeal and plea for the confessor to be reconciled to God...with elders being the most likely as they are the most mature in Christ.

Article 1442 the Catechism says:

Only God forgives sins (Mk 2:7) Since he is the Son of God Jesus himself says "The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" and exercises this divine power "Your sins are forgiven" (Mk 2:5, Lk 7:48) Further he gives this power to men to exercise in his name (Jn 20:21-23)

The distinction is that God does the forgiving, the priest has simply been commissioned to carry this out. (2 Cor 5:18) The apostle is sent out "on behalf of Christ" with "God making appeal" through him and pleading "Be reconciled to God" (2 Cor 5:20)

 

[francisdesales]

Well, we do see we're to confess our sins one to another.
But if we were called to do more than that, I'd think we'd be told explicitly.

We are! John's Gospel explicitly tells us that apostles were given the power to forgive or retain sins! Naturally, this is not some power blithely given, but is rather profound. Note, it is given AFTER Christ rose from the dead - which frees men from sins. In other words, Jesus knew that men would sin, even after being forgiven of sins at baptism.

2 Cor. isn't talking about forgiving sin. It's referring to the church barring a person from fellowship for having relations with his father's wife. Now Paul is encouraging the body to accept him back because he has obviously repented and is sorrowful for what he did. That is the forgiveness we are called to do...we forgive those who have sinned against us and this man had committed open sin while in fellowship that was first overlooked by an immature church. After calling them out, they kicked the guy out and that is why he finally repented. The elders didn't forgive his sin, they forgave his behavior because he was sorry.

Maybe you should re-read that and tell me again "2 Cor isn't talking about forgiving sins" - and then you proceed to tell me that it is exactly what is happening!

Now, that said, I did a little research and found this...
"With God making appeal through him and pleading 'Be reconciled to God'" it appears we aren't as far off as I'd thought. The real difference being you believe in a ministerial position and I see that any member of the body being able to make the appeal and plea for the confessor to be reconciled to God...with elders being the most likely as they are the most mature in Christ.

Article 1442 the Catechism says:

Only God forgives sins (Mk 2:7) Since he is the Son of God Jesus himself says "The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" and exercises this divine power "Your sins are forgiven" (Mk 2:5, Lk 7:48) Further he gives this power to men to exercise in his name (Jn 20:21-23)

The distinction is that God does the forgiving, the priest has simply been commissioned to carry this out. (2 Cor 5:18) The apostle is sent out "on behalf of Christ" with "God making appeal" through him and pleading "Be reconciled to God" (2 Cor 5:20)

Yes, we believe in a ministerial position, set up by God, to provide something humans need - forgiveness. When people sin against us, certainly, we expected to forgive (Lord's Prayer). But we also sin against God's commandments, so we require forgiveness from Him. I do not think that God gave everyone THAT power, to speak for Him in such a capacity. At least that is what we've believed since the first century... Considering the Spirit ensures that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth, it would be quite odd that God's Spirit would allow such error for so long.

Thus, by faith, we believe certain men have been given the authority to speak for God as representatives - to offer the ministry of reconcilliation to others in need of God's forgiveness in visible form.

Perhaps you should give it a try.

Regards

 

[glorydaz]

We are! John's Gospel explicitly tells us that apostles were given the power to forgive or retain sins! Naturally, this is not some power blithely given, but is rather profound. Note, it is given AFTER Christ rose from the dead - which frees men from sins. In other words, Jesus knew that men would sin, even after being forgiven of sins at baptism.

Sorry, I don't see it that way. I believe the verse in John is misunderstood. It's referring to preaching the gospel of repentance toward God. Only God can forgive sins. We are to forgive men for sins against us, but Jesus was the propitiation of sins committed against God. We can now come boldly before the throne without the need of any other mediator than Him.

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Maybe you should re-read that and tell me again "2 Cor isn't talking about forgiving sins" - and then you proceed to tell me that it is exactly what is happening!

No, I was talking about men forgiving men for sins they have committed against other men...not against God. As I said...I can agree with this statement below. The priest isn't absolving, he's pleading with man to be reconciled to God.

The distinction is that God does the forgiving, the priest has simply been commissioned to carry this out. (2 Cor 5:18) The apostle is sent out "on behalf of Christ" with "God making appeal" through him and pleading "Be reconciled to God" (2 Cor 5:20)

Truth, it would be quite odd that God's Spirit would allow such error for so long.

Thus, by faith, we believe certain men have been given the authority to speak for God as representatives - to offer the ministry of reconcilliation to others in need of God's forgiveness in visible form.

Perhaps you should give it a try.

I hve tried it.

But God has allowed error in the church. We see it all the time.
Man's best intentions often lead them into error.
The only representative we need is Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit's guidance.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

 

[francisdesales]

Sorry, I don't see it that way. I believe the verse in John is misunderstood. It's referring to preaching the gospel of repentance toward God.

Sorry, it explicitly says something quite different. There is nothing about preaching in those verses. It is authority given to men. It is quite plain, I'm sorry you refuse to see that.

In discussions here and elsewhere, I have found that logical discussion is trumped by emotional appeals and how someone was taught previously. As such, I feel I have made my point and will leave it at that, since I cannot override your desire to hold the teachings of your past.

Regards

 

[glorydaz]

Sorry, I don't see it that way. I believe the verse in John is misunderstood. It's referring to preaching the gospel of repentance toward God.

Sorry, it explicitly says something quite different. There is nothing about preaching in those verses. It is authority given to men. It is quite plain, I'm sorry you refuse to see that.

In discussions here and elsewhere, I have found that logical discussion is trumped by emotional appeals and how someone was taught previously. As such, I feel I have made my point and will leave it at that, since I cannot override your desire to hold the teachings of your past.

Regards

As I read what your own church stated...the priest is not forgiving sin....only God can do that.

The priest is appealing to man to be reconciled with God.

 

[chestertonrules]

[
As I read what your own church stated...the priest is not forgiving sin....only God can do that.

The priest is appealing to man to be reconciled with God.

The priest acts in persona christi, ie. in the person of Christ.

1443 During his public life Jesus not only forgave sins, but also made plain the effect of this forgiveness: he reintegrated forgiven sinners into the community of the People of God from which sin had alienated or even excluded them. A remarkable sign of this is the fact that Jesus receives sinners at his table, a gesture that expresses in an astonishing way both God's forgiveness and the return to the bosom of the People of God.44

1444 In imparting to his apostles his own power to forgive sins the Lord also gives them the authority to reconcile sinners with the Church. This ecclesial dimension of their task is expressed most notably in Christ's solemn words to Simon Peter: "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."45 "The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of the apostles united to its head."46

1445 The words bind and loose mean: whomever you exclude from your communion, will be excluded from communion with God; whomever you receive anew into your communion, God will welcome back into his. Reconciliation with the Church is inseparable from reconciliation with God.

 

[francisdesales]

As I read what your own church stated...the priest is not forgiving sin....only God can do that.

The priest is appealing to man to be reconciled with God.

I'm sorry, glory, that's not quite what we believe. We do not believe that the priest, upon his OWN power, can forgive sins. I hope you have been reading my posts, which state that we believe Christ GAVE THIS POWER to men, exercised by priests. I won't post the Catechism, Chestertonrules has already done so. Note the second paragraph he posted - JESUS gave men the power to forgive sins, as per John 20. Isn't this what I have been saying?

In the Confessional, the priest, after hearing the confessed sins and the act of contrition, will say these words...

"God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of his Son has reconciled the world to himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen."

We believe God forgives sins through the ministry of the Church - the priest acting in the person of Christ and the community's representative. Note carefully that it is the priest absolving the penitent, not merely relaying what God has already done in heaven (since the priest doesn't have a pipeline to God's mind to know such things...)

Regards

 

[elijah23]

then can't we just fool men into forgiving us? I mean couldn't a person simply sin willingly and maliciously over and over again if all they have to do to be forgiven is confess in a closet, and, have a man tell them that their sins are forgiven?


I'll bet it would be super easy to fool the priest every time I asked for forgiveness. That is if I wanted to fool a priest into forgiving me I could according to the Catholic doctrine, and so could anyone else. But since I don't want to fool anyone in order to to enter heaven, and my High Priest is Jesus Christ, I think I'll be entering in through the straight gate and not trying to climb the walls to get in.

To be forgiven by the Lord, one must repent of their sin, I think. You can’t trick the Lord.