if one doest accept the trinity then what was jesus?

[francisdesales]

Francis,

Do you agree with Free's correction? If so, would you answer to my questions please?

thanks.

Shad,

I would say that a person has to accept Jesus as God to be a Christian. That is the will of the Father, to believe that Jesus is Lord.

It already appears that you accept Him as God in practice, if not in theory, by your comment where you substitute in the Shema "God" for "Jesus". I would presume that you are not worshipping ANOTHER God and breaking the commandment, so Jesus = God in your mind. Like I said, how we pray is how we believe.

Regards

 

[shad]

It already appears that you accept Him as God in practice, if not in theory, by your comment where you substitute in the Shema "God" for "Jesus". I would presume that you are not worshipping ANOTHER God and breaking the commandment, so Jesus = God in your mind. Like I said, how we pray is how we believe.
Regards

Trinitarians are being so legalistic and ostracize others who dont agree with their doctrines. That is my main point. His Father says to listen to Jesus. Jesus never says to call Him God or you are not His follower. Jesus says if you love Him you will keep His commandments. They dont make a big issue out of being just lip serving with OSAS doctrine.

It is important to them to be lip server with their doctrines more than actually being faithful to Jesus' commandments.

Free does not realize how contradicting it is with her comments.

 

[Elijah674]

Gen.1
[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. ...' (Who is meant to be the other person later on? One who has Immortality as the Godhead, or material as in the earth or created non/immortal beings such as angels or creatures of other worlds as spoken of twice in the book of Heb.?)

[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. (Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost without an Image)

Hi, me again. Did any of you catch the Words of the Spirit Working WORLDWIDE in this passage at this time/period?? After Adam's sin satan took over Adams domain. And Christ/God worked under a temp. handy/cap. (Gen. 1:28 + Matt. 4:8-9)

This is a good reason why some get confused about the Holy Spirit & the Godhead. In other Words the Eternal Gospel of Christ (Rev. 14:6) was the PLAN that the Godhead were required to use after Adam lost his domain to satan. Bottom/line found the Truth working from a central location. Even Cain was talked to by God Himself in person. Gen. 4:7 & later came Psalms 77:13

--Elijah

Was that to hard to understand?? When Adam lost his domain to satan, the Earth was turned over to Christ/God which was now the center/piece of Salvation.. to win back. This was with the full power as God as given to the second Adam, and yet in just one location until His death & return to heaven in victory, and then to send back the Holy Spirit to testify of Himself omnipresent. This was the Eternal Gospel PLAN.

Even ask yourself if when Christ/God/Man was here on earth, was there ever any greater miracle preformed than being Born Again, Raised from the Dead + [all the rest] other than in all the earth at one time? Even now Christ stated that the Holy Spirit would TESTIFY of ME, and not [Himself].'

And this is the Doctrine of Christ! 2 John 1:9

--Elijah

 

[shad]

Free,

Jesus does not say you have to call Him God to be saved but He makes it clear over and over that you have to serve Him faithfully until the end to be saved.

Christianity is not about how you call Jesus, it is all about you love Him with your action until the end, not by lipserving. The verse I quoted "Lord, Lord..." is all about lip serving not about how you call Him.

 

[francisdesales]

It already appears that you accept Him as God in practice, if not in theory, by your comment where you substitute in the Shema "God" for "Jesus". I would presume that you are not worshipping ANOTHER God and breaking the commandment, so Jesus = God in your mind. Like I said, how we pray is how we believe.
Regards

Trinitarians are being so legalistic and ostracize others who dont agree with their doctrines. That is my main point. His Father says to listen to Jesus. Jesus never says to call Him God or you are not His follower.

Shad,

I am not going to comment on the ostracizing part. That is your personal opinion and nothing I can say will dislodge you of that.

However, I can speak more about Jesus...

The teachings of Jesus Christ were PURPOSELY meant to be subtle on this point. Even on Him being the Messiah, Jesus was rather vague and secretive, until His trial. If Jesus would have come out and said "I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob", the teachings that He wanted taught would have been overwhelmed by the desire to be freed from Roman hegemony.

What is amazing is that these monotheistic Jews so quickly attributed to Jesus of Nazareth titles that were ordinarily given to God. Jesus, thought to be a Galilean carpenter, has been given the NAME ABOVE EVERY OTHER NAME, the NAME at which EVERY knee must bend, the Name that was nothing less than the Divine Name Itself. At the Name, all shall confess that "Jesus is Lord", KYRIOS - the exact same word in the Greek Septuagint used to designate the Divine Name.

Paul, a zealous Pharisee, persecuted these disciples because they deviated from the traditions of the fathers. After his conversion, he judged that the knowledge previously, was knowledge according to human standards. What happened to Paul on the road to Damascus was an event comparable to the first day of creation - he became a new man. "Let there be light", God spoke through the Word. Again, the Word of God was now speaking to Paul, shining into the darkness of the human heart, opening up the "glory of God" which shines up in Christ so that we recognize Him as the Son of God. He fully understood the hymn in Philipians 2 to be a hymn to God Himself Who had come in the Flesh.

And thus, Christians recognize that the Jesus who comes to them, as to Paul, is God Himself.

Jesus says if you love Him you will keep His commandments. They dont make a big issue out of being just lip serving with OSAS doctrine.

It is important to them to be lip server with their doctrines more than actually being faithful to Jesus' commandments.

I can't speak for those who follow OSAS doctrine. I clearly oppose this interpretation of the Scriptures.

Regards

 

[shad]

Francis,

Show me even one verse Jesus or His apostles say you have to say Jesus is God to be saved or His follower.

thanks

 

[Free]

Francis,

Do you agree with Free's correction? If so, would you answer to my questions please?

thanks.

He probably doesn't since it really wasn't a good argument.

Free,

Jesus does not say you have to call Him God to be saved but He makes it clear over and over that you have to serve Him faithfully until the end to be saved.

Christianity is not about how you call Jesus, it is all about you love Him with your action until the end, not by lipserving. The verse I quoted "Lord, Lord..." is all about lip serving not about how you call Him.

Do you consider all of Scripture inspired and authoritative? Or do you only think that what Jesus said was important? In continually arguing to what Jesus said, you are undermining the rest of Scripture. It is so important to take everything that Scripture says.

I have said many times and will continue to say that who Jesus is cannot be separated from belief in him. He is the central figure of the entirety of Scripture. How can it not be important who he is?

 

[Mysteryman]

Francis,

Do you agree with Free's correction? If so, would you answer to my questions please?

thanks.

He probably doesn't since it really wasn't a good argument.

Free,

Jesus does not say you have to call Him God to be saved but He makes it clear over and over that you have to serve Him faithfully until the end to be saved.

Christianity is not about how you call Jesus, it is all about you love Him with your action until the end, not by lipserving. The verse I quoted "Lord, Lord..." is all about lip serving not about how you call Him.

Do you consider all of Scripture inspired and authoritative? Or do you only think that what Jesus said was important? In continually arguing to what Jesus said, you are undermining the rest of Scripture. It is so important to take everything that Scripture says.

I have said many times and will continue to say that who Jesus is cannot be separated from belief in him. He is the central figure of the entirety of Scripture. How can it not be important who he is?

Hi

I John 5:1

I John 4:15 - "Whosoever shall confess that Jesus (the Christ) is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God"

 

[francisdesales]

Francis,

Show me even one verse Jesus or His apostles say you have to say Jesus is God to be saved or His follower.

thanks

You are in luck, as I am currently reading the Jewish New Testament commentary on John's Gospel, so I'll give you two...

Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. John 5:22-23

I would say that the honor you give to the Father must equal the honor one gives to the Son. Thus, the Shema would apply to both persons consisting of (without discussion of the Spirit) to the One Adonai.

No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 1 John 2:23

Sounds a lot like what Jesus told the Judeans at the end of John 5... These both teach that unless you recognize that Jesus is the Son of God, you are not worshiping God. Note John 5:37-44, what Jesus says to the unbelieving Judeans. They don't believe Jesus is God because they don't have the love of God within them.

Regards

 

[Elijah674]

Francis,

Show me even one verse Jesus or His apostles say you have to say Jesus is God to be saved or His follower.

thanks

Just one Word? (verse) Do you agree that Christ IS THE WORD? Just wondering. And the REQUIREMENT?? Matt. 4:4 + 2 Tim. 3:16
And Hosea 4:6 finds the [last day] Truth. And surely the Gentils of Rom. 2:14-15 are seen with the Law of God penned into their heart by obeying the Truth that the Holy Spirit had given them from the Godhead's nature alone. When they awaken in the First Resurection their Savious will be a supprise, huh!

But, make NO MISTAKE, in 2010 + there will be [NO one] that will not have access to the COMPLETE TRUTH! Rev. 14:6-10. And this doctrine will be only one that is discarded or accepted for whatever reason. 666 will be the real testing. Exod. 16:14 + ibid. 28.

And again!! If one will accept being [LED] (Rom. 8:14) of the Holy Spirit, chapter one of Gen. finds THREE SEPERATE INDIVIDUALS in the Godhead. ZERO IN ON VERSE 2 + 26!

And you ask about [ONE] verse? 2 John 1:9-11 finds the Doctrine of Christ in the 'required' Complete Eternal Gospel as 'i' see it.
(I had these above in Matt. 4:4 + 2 Tim. 3:16 + Rev. 14:6-10 END/TIME 666 Testing) Let me just suggest that the WORLD UN Court will try the 666 few Faithful ones for the Last Truth to be accepted or rejected and watched worldwide. Yet, this will ALL START in USA. Protestants? Hardly! Rev. 17:1-5 And we even see of 9 USA Justices on the Supreme court having 6 Catholics & 3 Jews. And two at least setting in the highest offices are Catholic's. They even are talking of their Pope, huh? Whatever?

USA is in bed with Rome!

--Elijah

 

[francisdesales]

USA is in bed with Rome!

--Elijah

Mwahah!!! The master plan is coming together. By the end of the year, you'll all be Catholic!

Maybe you might want to do it now to beat the rush!

:biglol

 

[Sinthesis]

Free,

Jesus does not say you have to call Him God to be saved but He makes it clear over and over that you have to serve Him faithfully until the end to be saved.

Christianity is not about how you call Jesus, it is all about you love Him with your action until the end, not by lipserving. The verse I quoted "Lord, Lord..." is all about lip serving not about how you call Him.

You can serve The Pope faithfully until the end.
You can serve Buddha faithfully until the end.
You can serve Confucius faithfully until the end. :nod
You can serve The Dahli Llama faithfully until the end.
You can serve Mohammed faithfully until the end.
You can serve The Emperor of Japan faithfully until the end.
You can serve Hitler faithfully until the end.
You can serve Lenin faithfully until the end.
You can serve Sarah Palin faithfully until the end.

Yet they can't save you beyond death because they aren't God. Why would a Jesus who is not God be able to save you? Trinitarians don't want you to place your soul in the hands of a mere man.

Now, how do you "honour the Father"? :halo

 

[shad]

I have said many times and will continue to say that who Jesus is cannot be separated from belief in him. He is the central figure of the entirety of Scripture. How can it not be important who he is?

It is important that He was sent by God the Father to be the Lamb. Not how He is called. Please give me one Scripture that Jesus or His apostles say you have to call Jesus God to be saved or to be His follower.

thanks.

 

[shad]

Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. John 5:22-23

This verse does not say you have to call Jesus God to be saved. I honor Jesus as my savior and Lord like He actually tells us to. I have been serving Him with all my might.

No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 1 John 2:23

The same as the above. I dont call Jesus God but I acknowledge fully that He was sent by God to save the world and serving Him as my Lord with all my might with my action.

 

[Elijah674]

USA is in bed with Rome!

--Elijah

Mwahah!!! The master plan is coming together. By the end of the year, you'll all be Catholic!

Maybe you might want to do it now to beat the rush!

:biglol

Master Plan?? Not really, just the Finishing up of Prophecy of the forkmowledge of the Godhead. Eccl. 1:9-10 + Eccl. 3:15
And Christ in Matt 6 tells us that there are just TWO groups.. It seem that Christ has it stated correctly with romes daughters in the vomit/slop pile of 2 Peter 2:19-22 & a Remnant following Christ.

[24] No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

And we already [SEE] the Prophecy of all of these in the FINAL tally as the ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH in almost daily print & on T.V., both mom & daughters. And that is not even your latest converts of Laodicea of Rev. 3:17 + 9. And what is USA waiting for to wrap it up? They are just about set, huh? And the trinity subject is just another 'smokescreen'. There was a time it seems that some even taught in a three/headed god, huh?

--Elijah

 

[jasoncran]

oh please, elijah just because some says they are so and so, doesnt mean they actually follow it!

 

[francisdesales]

Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. John 5:22-23

This verse does not say you have to call Jesus God to be saved. I honor Jesus as my savior and Lord like He actually tells us to. I have been serving Him with all my might.

Do you understand what the words "just as" means? Are you saying that you do not have to honor the Father??? If you do not honor the Son JUST AS the Father, then you got some problems...

Shad, a bit of open and honest thought will bring you around to the Christian viewpoint, that Jesus NAME is above ALL OTHER NAMES. Now, what does a Jew think when he hears this about a "NAME"???

Yea, JESUS IS LORD (KYRIOS = GOD)

Regards

 

[jasoncran]

that is why the hebrews were offended when the Lord claimed that title, they used the lord of lord and king of kings.

jesus was claiming that when he claimed the role of messiah as many called him lord and he didnt rebuke them for that.

 

[dadof10]

Master Plan?? Not really, just the Finishing up of Prophecy of the forkmowledge of the Godhead. Eccl. 1:9-10 + Eccl. 3:15
And Christ in Matt 6 tells us that there are just TWO groups.. It seem that Christ has it stated correctly with romes daughters in the vomit/slop pile of 2 Peter 2:19-22 & a Remnant following Christ.

[24] No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

And we already [SEE] the Prophecy of all of these in the FINAL tally as the ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH in almost daily print & on T.V., both mom & daughters. And that is not even your latest converts of Laodicea of Rev. 3:17 + 9. And what is USA waiting for to wrap it up? They are just about set, huh? And the trinity subject is just another 'smokescreen'. There was a time it seems that some even taught in a three/headed god, huh?

--Elijah

You have it all wrong. Only those that follow the Church of Rome will be saved:

And a ruler asked him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" And Jesus said to him, (Luke 18:18-19)

Follow(Jn.1:43)

the church of God which is at (1Corinthians 1:2)

Rome (Acts 18:2)

that you have eternal life. (1John (RSV) 5)

There it is, right there in scripture. See, we can paste verses together and make up our own silliness, too.

 

[jasoncran]

i hope that wasnt at us that are protestants as well, dad of 10. i do accept the trinity. though we have disagreed on rcc specific doctrines, i'm not in the position to say that those the are catholic dont know jesus.