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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Gabbylittleangel
Member
Re: reply
I sure hope heaven is better than this :-D
Gee golfjackgolfjack said:
I sure hope heaven is better than this :-D
B
BenJasher
Guest
Interesting comments showing the unbelief in the hearts of men who claim to believe.
I give you the following quotes as examples to illustrate what I am saying:
and:
The Second Coming of Christ isn't something we can be wishy-washy about. We can't afford to be. For if I read the scriptures aright, we become anti-christ if we are wrong on this point.
Yes, Gabby, the Second Coming has already taken place. What was the Day of Pentecost, with all the souls flooding into the Kingdom thousands at a time? What was all the commotion about as the disciples and Apostles took the Gospel with them everywhere they went, the Lord confirming their word with signs following? It was the Second Coming of Christ.
The reason golfjack didn't see it was for several possible reasons. Maybe he wasn't there when it happened. Maybe he hasn't read the scriptures. Maybe he is unfamiliar with Early Church History. Maybe he is of the Anti-Christ. I cannot say for certain. (I doubt that, but I cannot say for certain) Why do you not see it Gabby?
It is easy for us to look at the history of the Early Church and acknowledge that it was the coming of Christ, but then we keep looking for His appearing. We become double-minded and wishy-washy without realizing it or wanting to be that way.
The cold hard facts of the matter is that outpouring of the Holy Spirit is either the Second Coming, or it isn't. But if we say it isn't, we are anti-christ, according to 1John4:2.
The reason people get confused, scratch their heads and vassilate on this issue is that they can't differentiate between the Second Coming and the Manifestation of the Sons of God. And I blame that on Rapture Theology. A belief in the Rapture will distort a believers God-given ability to rightly divide the word of God. It obfuscates the details and blurs the lines between one teaching and another.
Take the Rapture out of your thinking and these details begin to make themselves known, and you begin to see that there is a difference between the Second Coming and the Huiothesia. Other things come into focus as well because all you could see before was something that wasn't there in the first place.
I am holding out to you, and anyone else who would accept it, an alternative to the confusion, the doubtful disputations, and all the other works of the enemy that is the fruit of the Rapture teaching(s). Even the defensive hatred that you feel in your heart toward me (that you wouldn't acknowledge to anyone here) is a work of the enemy and a fruit of the Rapture teaching(s).
God has not given us a spirit of confusion, but of power, and love and of a sound mind. The Rapture teachings work against all that.
I give you the following quotes as examples to illustrate what I am saying:
golfjack said:
and:
Gabby said:
The Second Coming of Christ isn't something we can be wishy-washy about. We can't afford to be. For if I read the scriptures aright, we become anti-christ if we are wrong on this point.
Yes, Gabby, the Second Coming has already taken place. What was the Day of Pentecost, with all the souls flooding into the Kingdom thousands at a time? What was all the commotion about as the disciples and Apostles took the Gospel with them everywhere they went, the Lord confirming their word with signs following? It was the Second Coming of Christ.
The reason golfjack didn't see it was for several possible reasons. Maybe he wasn't there when it happened. Maybe he hasn't read the scriptures. Maybe he is unfamiliar with Early Church History. Maybe he is of the Anti-Christ. I cannot say for certain. (I doubt that, but I cannot say for certain) Why do you not see it Gabby?
It is easy for us to look at the history of the Early Church and acknowledge that it was the coming of Christ, but then we keep looking for His appearing. We become double-minded and wishy-washy without realizing it or wanting to be that way.
The cold hard facts of the matter is that outpouring of the Holy Spirit is either the Second Coming, or it isn't. But if we say it isn't, we are anti-christ, according to 1John4:2.
The reason people get confused, scratch their heads and vassilate on this issue is that they can't differentiate between the Second Coming and the Manifestation of the Sons of God. And I blame that on Rapture Theology. A belief in the Rapture will distort a believers God-given ability to rightly divide the word of God. It obfuscates the details and blurs the lines between one teaching and another.
Take the Rapture out of your thinking and these details begin to make themselves known, and you begin to see that there is a difference between the Second Coming and the Huiothesia. Other things come into focus as well because all you could see before was something that wasn't there in the first place.
I am holding out to you, and anyone else who would accept it, an alternative to the confusion, the doubtful disputations, and all the other works of the enemy that is the fruit of the Rapture teaching(s). Even the defensive hatred that you feel in your heart toward me (that you wouldn't acknowledge to anyone here) is a work of the enemy and a fruit of the Rapture teaching(s).
God has not given us a spirit of confusion, but of power, and love and of a sound mind. The Rapture teachings work against all that.
Gabbylittleangel
Member
BenJasher said:
Oh gosh Ben,
It was my belief that Pentecost took place before 70 AD. According to Luke 21, I believe that your cart is before your horse.
There are a few other things that I disagree with here, but it just seems silly to spend my time pointing them out.
Golfjack, whatever you are thinking ~ for Gods sake, don't say it :-D that goes for you to jg!! :-D :-D
B
BenJasher
Guest
Gabby, You are correct in saying that the Day of Pentecost was before 70 A.D.
And the truth will always seem foolish to those who have no desire or reason to believe.
No I don't have my cart before the horse. It is your Rapture colored glasses that are distorting your vision.
Let's take a look at Luke 21, whaddaya think? Let's start at verse 25. I will post it here for you:
The symbolism of the Sun, Moon and Stars are all speaking of the Nation of Israel. The destruction of the Temple was a very clear and vivid sign without question. Titus sacrificing a pig on the altar was a sign. And these signs had to do specifically with the nation of Israel.
And here the Nation of Israel is delineated from the rest of the world by the phrase "and upon the earth, distress of nations." The seas are always symbolic of the mass of humanity on the earth. These things are commonly understood outside the Rapture crowd and can be much more easily documented and supported.
Men's hearts failing for fear, and of what they see coming upon the earth. This terminology doesn't necessarily indicate someone having a heart attack. But when men saw their kingdoms, their livelihoods and the way of life they have always known being torn down by The Message as it swept through their region, their hearts failed. The natural human inclination toward compassion and dignity failed when it came to dealing with those who brought The Message. They had no mercy or remorse when they had them beheaded, starved, boiled in hot oil, or fed to lions. It was fear that prompted this. It was fear that was at the heart of the persecution that lasted for 300 years. Men's hearts failed to produce what would have been there under any other circumstance.
It may almost seem trite to you for me to say these things. Like it is easy for me to say these things, but they aren't really true. But if you look into history, and really get your brain wrapped around the geo-political conditions of the world at that time, the "triteness" disappears. It becomes very real.
The powers of the earth were shaken to their very core by the effect of The Message as it spread from place to place. This isn't told to us in most learning institutions today, not even at University level. Those earthly rulers at that time very clearly did see the Son of Man coming with great power and glory. And it scared the pants off of them. The clouds indicate witnesses. We are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses. Again, Early Church era figure of speech, repeated several times in the New Testament. It has nothing to do with flying away someplace. It is OK to allow the scriptures to validate themselves this way. It works much better than having to keep mining the depths of confusion to make sense of something that isn't there to begin with. ;-)
When you see all these things...
"Lift up your heads, your redemption draweth nigh." Look up! (as in anticipation) your redemption is coming soon. Look up from your downtrodden condition. Look up in anticipation, for you are about to be released from your bondage to sickness and decay, and released into the glorious liberty of the Sons of God.
There is no reason to turn this into some dark comedy of flying away somewhere else. We are staying here. We have work to do. We were created unto good works and that we should live in them. We have nothing to fear of some mark of the Beast or Anti-Christ. Even John told us that in his time "there are already many antichrists gone out into the world. No. In all these things we are more than conquerors through Christ Jesus. We are Overcomers. We are the righteousness of God in Christ. And as He is, so are we in this world.
And the truth will always seem foolish to those who have no desire or reason to believe.
No I don't have my cart before the horse. It is your Rapture colored glasses that are distorting your vision.
Let's take a look at Luke 21, whaddaya think? Let's start at verse 25. I will post it here for you:
Luke 21:25-28 said:
The symbolism of the Sun, Moon and Stars are all speaking of the Nation of Israel. The destruction of the Temple was a very clear and vivid sign without question. Titus sacrificing a pig on the altar was a sign. And these signs had to do specifically with the nation of Israel.
And here the Nation of Israel is delineated from the rest of the world by the phrase "and upon the earth, distress of nations." The seas are always symbolic of the mass of humanity on the earth. These things are commonly understood outside the Rapture crowd and can be much more easily documented and supported.
Men's hearts failing for fear, and of what they see coming upon the earth. This terminology doesn't necessarily indicate someone having a heart attack. But when men saw their kingdoms, their livelihoods and the way of life they have always known being torn down by The Message as it swept through their region, their hearts failed. The natural human inclination toward compassion and dignity failed when it came to dealing with those who brought The Message. They had no mercy or remorse when they had them beheaded, starved, boiled in hot oil, or fed to lions. It was fear that prompted this. It was fear that was at the heart of the persecution that lasted for 300 years. Men's hearts failed to produce what would have been there under any other circumstance.
It may almost seem trite to you for me to say these things. Like it is easy for me to say these things, but they aren't really true. But if you look into history, and really get your brain wrapped around the geo-political conditions of the world at that time, the "triteness" disappears. It becomes very real.
The powers of the earth were shaken to their very core by the effect of The Message as it spread from place to place. This isn't told to us in most learning institutions today, not even at University level. Those earthly rulers at that time very clearly did see the Son of Man coming with great power and glory. And it scared the pants off of them. The clouds indicate witnesses. We are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses. Again, Early Church era figure of speech, repeated several times in the New Testament. It has nothing to do with flying away someplace. It is OK to allow the scriptures to validate themselves this way. It works much better than having to keep mining the depths of confusion to make sense of something that isn't there to begin with. ;-)
When you see all these things...
"Lift up your heads, your redemption draweth nigh." Look up! (as in anticipation) your redemption is coming soon. Look up from your downtrodden condition. Look up in anticipation, for you are about to be released from your bondage to sickness and decay, and released into the glorious liberty of the Sons of God.
There is no reason to turn this into some dark comedy of flying away somewhere else. We are staying here. We have work to do. We were created unto good works and that we should live in them. We have nothing to fear of some mark of the Beast or Anti-Christ. Even John told us that in his time "there are already many antichrists gone out into the world. No. In all these things we are more than conquerors through Christ Jesus. We are Overcomers. We are the righteousness of God in Christ. And as He is, so are we in this world.
P
preterist
Guest
Matthew Henry Commentary:
VI. He makes this to be a kind of appearing of the Son of man: Then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud, with power and great glory, Luk_21:27. The destruction of Jerusalem was in a particular manner an act of Christ's judgment, the judgment committed to the Son of man; his religion could never be thoroughly established but by the destruction of the temple, and the abolishing of the Levitical priesthood and economy, after which even the converted Jews, and many of the Gentiles too, were still hankering, till they were destroyed; so that it might justly be looked upon as a coming of the Son of man, in power and great glory, yet not visibly, but in the clouds; for in executing such judgments as these clouds and darkness are round about him.
Believe it or not many if not most theologians pre-1900 Darbyism saw the Olivet Discourse as fulfilled in the events of AD70. Too bad the Jack Van Impe’s and John Hagees of the world get all the attention as the “expertsâ€Â.
However you said these were fulfilled once:
Indeed, it did happen once. Yet it was not the end of the age.
Like so many things that happened more than one time in Scripture, it is going to happen again.
So was it fulfilled or was it not fulfilled?
D
D46
Guest
Tell me, BA-are you a full or partial preterist? This is their thinking on the Second coming of Christ. If Christ has indeed come already, I guess that leaves a lot of us behind as there will be a Rapture (a"snatching up") of the saints of God prior to the Great Tribulation period, like it, believe it or not.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
If Jesus has already been back in 70 AD as claimed, there is therefore, no fear of taking the mark of the beast. The tribulation and mark of the beast were ended by 70AD so we can start buying, selling without fear of being eternally damned. Moreover, it is also pointless to celebrate the Lord's Supper. When the Lord's Supper ceases, the NEW COVENANT has ceased. This heresy forces the end of the NEW COVENANT in 70AD!
So, the prophecy of Joel about the pouring out of the Holy Ghost ended in 70AD. So, we have a Church without the Holy Ghost; a Church without the New Covenant; and a Church without the Lord's Supper! I guess we also missed the marriage of the Lamb in Rev 19:7-9 since it supposedly took place with the saints living after 70AD in that generation.
I surmise also that the sun going dark and the moon turning to blood, and the stars falling from heaven is just a Jewish idiom and will not literally happen as indicated in Acts 2:20 nd Matthew 24:29-30....right?
Acts 2:20 (KJV) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Matthew 24:29-30 (KJV) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Does anyone really think the new heaven and new earth of Rev 21:1 came to pass in 70 AD? Give me a break!! :roll:
Gabbylittleangel
Member
preterist said:
Not.
The event that happened in 70 AD happened. Yet, it is not the event that Jesus prophesied in Luke when discussing the end time events. ALL of the things that were foretold to happen need to line up in the order that they are said to line up.
For example:
If we are given a list of ten things to watch for, and some of those things happen, but not all of them, then it is possible that some of the things on the list will happen more than one time.
The fact that Jerusalem exist today, seems to make it feasible that it can be surrounded again. Given the state of the world, it is very likely to happen.
Gabbylittleangel
Member
D46 said:
Hey thanks D46!
I was totally unaware that this was really an actual doctrine. :o
:roll: Lord have mercy
reply
On May 14, 1948, at 4:32 p.m., the State of Israel after 2 thousand years, was reborn. Ezekiel's prophetic vision was fulfilled ( Eze. 37:7-8).
Prophesy teachers before 1948 couldn't figure out many things about end-times, but now I believe we can see that God is true to His Word. I believe there are 10 very important prophesies that have been fulfilled that leads us up to the time when God will take His Church out of the way, so that the 7 year tribulation can be fulfilled. Can anyone name the 10 very important prophesies that have been fulfilled?
Ezekiel 37:21: Then say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land.
God made it exceedingly clear that He would bring the Jews back to their own land. Not the Palestian's land, but He would restore them to the Promised Land of the eternal covenant God made with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and their descendants.
Today they have a flag; they have a constitution; they have a prime minister and a Knesset. They have a police force, a powerful military might, and the world's best intelligence agencies. They have Jerusalem, the city of God. They have a nation. They have everything but spiritual life. Israel awaits the spiritual awakening of the breath of God and the coming Messiah.
For the spiritual awakening to happen, every gentle that is suppose to be saved according to Romans chapter 1, must happen. This would be the rapture of the Church.
May God bless, golfjack
On May 14, 1948, at 4:32 p.m., the State of Israel after 2 thousand years, was reborn. Ezekiel's prophetic vision was fulfilled ( Eze. 37:7-8).
Prophesy teachers before 1948 couldn't figure out many things about end-times, but now I believe we can see that God is true to His Word. I believe there are 10 very important prophesies that have been fulfilled that leads us up to the time when God will take His Church out of the way, so that the 7 year tribulation can be fulfilled. Can anyone name the 10 very important prophesies that have been fulfilled?
Ezekiel 37:21: Then say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land.
God made it exceedingly clear that He would bring the Jews back to their own land. Not the Palestian's land, but He would restore them to the Promised Land of the eternal covenant God made with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and their descendants.
Today they have a flag; they have a constitution; they have a prime minister and a Knesset. They have a police force, a powerful military might, and the world's best intelligence agencies. They have Jerusalem, the city of God. They have a nation. They have everything but spiritual life. Israel awaits the spiritual awakening of the breath of God and the coming Messiah.
For the spiritual awakening to happen, every gentle that is suppose to be saved according to Romans chapter 1, must happen. This would be the rapture of the Church.
May God bless, golfjack
D
D46
Guest
Gabbylittleangel said:
Indeed-a dangerous position to be in. Here's a bit more about this belief system.
http://www.newwine.org/Articles/Preterism.htm
http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=twaddle
B
BenJasher
Guest
Gabbylittleangel said:
Maybe it is your understanding of these things that needs to line up. What happened in those days either was "A" coming of Christ, or it wasn't. If it was, then it was the Second Coming. If it wasn't, we need to keep looking for it. However, that leaves us in a most unfavorable position. Because any spirit that confesses not that Christ has come in the flesh is anti-christ.
We need to be careful to not become what I spoke of earlier:
BenJasher said:
D46 said:
Dangerous, eh? It was dangerous to be a Christian in the early days. It was a capital offense to found in possession of Christian writings. People were constantly being fed to lions, starved to death, tortured to death, beheaded, and all sort of other mistreatment at the hands of others for no more reason than they were Christian.
And for over a thousand years, it was dangerous to disagree with the Catholic Church. It was even dangerous to disagree with John Calvin. John Calvin had more than one person burned at the stake for disagreeing with him.
The Catholic Church burned people at the stake for heresy because they believed in the pre-existence of spirit. But yet that teaching had more scriptural foundation than the rapture does. People gave their lives for opposing the Papacy. Entire villages were burned to the ground with the loss of all life by the Catholic Church because they didn't recognize the Pope.
Bottom line: It has always been dangerous to be right.
Gary De Mar had a very valid point that needed more than to be merely "twaddled" away by someone whose best attempt at being a scholar is to make blanket statements with no documentation, expecting his readers to just follow along, and to ridicule what he doesn't understand well enough to adequately refute otherwise. Ian Paisley is someone I would call dangerous.
Look to your own backyard for the dangerous wolves in sheep's clothing.
Gabbylittleangel
Member
BenJasher said:
Ben
Christ has indeed come in the flesh, was crucified, and rose again on the third day.
It looks as if you have somehow confused his first coming, the fulfilment of the promised comforter, and the second coming.
After He was crucified, and rose on the third day, He was seen by many. He then ascended into heaven (See Acts Chapter 1), and the day of Pentecost was the promise of the Holy Spirit. (See Acts Chapter 2)
The second coming has not yet taken place. Keep looking for it.
D
D46
Guest
Don't bother to give me lessons on Church history, I know all about it... Futhermore, you are not right in your theology but very wrong-dead wrong. I don't have to look for wolves in my backyard as most of them are on here. You're teaching a different gospel than what Christ taught and it's outright heresy. Hope I made that plain enough.
Jesus will come again at the Rapture FOR His own (for all the Saints throughout history). The dead in Christ shall be raised up first and then living Christians will be changed. Sorry you don't want to be part of that. I'd really reconsider if I were you.
B
BenJasher
Guest
If there is anything that is going to be taken out of this world, it is going to be the wicked. And that my friend is scriptural.
And no, I am not wrong. I have nothing to fear on those grounds.
And no, I am not wrong. I have nothing to fear on those grounds.
B
BenJasher
Guest
D46, While at work today, I was running our little discourse through my mind and some little detail stood out to me. So let me ask you a question:
Your real name is Ian Paisley, isn't it? If you would rather not give that info out in the public forum, pm me. I am curious.
Your real name is Ian Paisley, isn't it? If you would rather not give that info out in the public forum, pm me. I am curious.
B
BenJasher
Guest
I am not a full preterist. I don't even consider myself to be preterist. I used to label my views on end time events as "Historicist" as opposed to "futurist." I didn't even know there was such a word or ideology as preterism til recently, within the past year or so.D46 said:
And the reason you are confused about a catching away and a Tribulation period is that you are trying to mingle the two together in a manner in which they do not belong.
We have been in the tribulation period for the last 2000 years. Jesus said "In this life ye shall have tribulation." The word is thlipsis in the Greek. "All who would live Godly lives shall suffer tribulation (thlipsis)". I could go on quoting scripture that puts a different light on the Tribulation Period than what you are used to seeing. But do me this one small honor: Do a search in your Strong's for the word Tribulation and read in context with a clear and open mind the verses where the singular and the plural both are used in the New Testament. It is just 22 scriptures. When you have done that, and only then, come back and tell me why the Tribulation Period has to be a seven year period of time at the end of time.
It is my contention that the whole Rapture thingy has a certain scriptural principal backwards. The whole of scripture is rife with statements to the effect that it is the wicked that are to be removed and that the righteous will stay here. The Rapture has that backwards. Who are you going to believe; The scripture of a delusional preacher form the 1800's?
D46 said:
I will have to admit that this one scripture above all the rest is the strongest in favor of a Rapture. But alas, there is no Rapture here either. As I have said repeatedly, meeting the Lord in the air is an Early Church era figure of speech. It is used or referred to several times in the New Testament. And if you allow the scripture to comment on itself, you will see that it has nothing to do with a Rapture.
These are things you will have to figure out for yourself. And the answers will come in time. But the first thing you have to do is come to grips with the fact that the Rapture no longer makes sense to you. You are beginning to see the truth about the Rapture. This is creating questions for you, as naturally it should. Just relax, and don't be in a hurry. In the next couple of days or so, it will come to you in a flash, and my words will suddenly make sense to you.D46 said:
D
D46
Guest
You must be psychic BA...how did you guess? No, really I'm Benny Hinn incognito!! :D No, on second thought, I might be Jack Chick. :-D I'll keep you guessing.
D
D46
Guest
Am I on Candid Camera???
: Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!