If the world ends...

[lecoop]

Interesting comments showing the unbelief in the hearts of men who claim to believe.

I give you the following quotes as examples to illustrate what I am saying:



The Second Coming of Christ isn't something we can be wishy-washy about. We can't afford to be. For if I read the scriptures aright, we become anti-christ if we are wrong on this point.

Yes, Gabby, the Second Coming has already taken place. What was the Day of Pentecost, with all the souls flooding into the Kingdom thousands at a time? What was all the commotion about as the disciples and Apostles took the Gospel with them everywhere they went, the Lord confirming their word with signs following? It was the Second Coming of Christ.

The reason golfjack didn't see it was for several possible reasons. Maybe he wasn't there when it happened. Maybe he hasn't read the scriptures. Maybe he is unfamiliar with Early Church History. Maybe he is of the Anti-Christ. I cannot say for certain. (I doubt that, but I cannot say for certain) Why do you not see it Gabby?

It is easy for us to look at the history of the Early Church and acknowledge that it was the coming of Christ, but then we keep looking for His appearing. We become double-minded and wishy-washy without realizing it or wanting to be that way.

The cold hard facts of the matter is that outpouring of the Holy Spirit is either the Second Coming, or it isn't. But if we say it isn't, we are anti-christ, according to 1John4:2.

The reason people get confused, scratch their heads and vassilate on this issue is that they can't differentiate between the Second Coming and the Manifestation of the Sons of God. And I blame that on Rapture Theology. A belief in the Rapture will distort a believers God-given ability to rightly divide the word of God. It obfuscates the details and blurs the lines between one teaching and another.

Take the Rapture out of your thinking and these details begin to make themselves known, and you begin to see that there is a difference between the Second Coming and the Huiothesia. Other things come into focus as well because all you could see before was something that wasn't there in the first place.

I am holding out to you, and anyone else who would accept it, an alternative to the confusion, the doubtful disputations, and all the other works of the enemy that is the fruit of the Rapture teaching(s). Even the defensive hatred that you feel in your heart toward me (that you wouldn't acknowledge to anyone here) is a work of the enemy and a fruit of the Rapture teaching(s).

God has not given us a spirit of confusion, but of power, and love and of a sound mind. The Rapture teachings work against all that.

Sorry, BenJasher, there is no confusion, unless it is on your side. It is all pretty simple:

1). 6th seal: Great earthquake
..............Cosmic signs point to the start of the Day of the Lord.
2). 144,000 Sealed for thier protection during the trumpet judgements
3). Rapture: John sees crowd without number in heaven. (Hint: earthquakes seem to happen with resurrections.)
4). Day of the Lord and 70th week of Daniel begin with 7th seal
5). 6 trumpets are blown (one kills 1/3 of human population.)
6). Several events happen at the midpoint
.....John measures temple, so new temple is complete.
.....Two witnesses start testifying.
7). 7th trumpet marks exact midpoint
.....Abomonation takes place: Antichrist declares to be God in the temple.
.....Image also set up in temple
.....Satan cast down from heaven
.....Remnant flees into the wilderness
8). Beast starts greatest time of persecution ever seen: like Germany for a Jew, but it will be world wide.
9). God starts pouring out his vials of wrath with the plagues: designed to slow and finally stop the antichrist from his persecution of the saints.
10). 7th vial marks the end of the 70th week of Daniel
11). "Immediately after" the tribulation of those days, Jesus returns to earth, on the white horse.
12). When His foot hits the mount, things change big time! For instance, anyone seen people fishing in the dead sea? (Hint: it is currently dead!)

70th week of Daniel, plain and simple.

Coop

P.S. A first grade reader could tell us that these events in Revelation are still in our future. Anyone seen 1/3 of the earth's population wiped out in a few months? NOT!

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Gabby, You are correct in saying that the Day of Pentecost was before 70 A.D.
And the truth will always seem foolish to those who have no desire or reason to believe.

No I don't have my cart before the horse. It is your Rapture colored glasses that are distorting your vision.

Let's take a look at Luke 21, whaddaya think? Let's start at verse 25. I will post it here for you:



The symbolism of the Sun, Moon and Stars are all speaking of the Nation of Israel. The destruction of the Temple was a very clear and vivid sign without question. Titus sacrificing a pig on the altar was a sign. And these signs had to do specifically with the nation of Israel.

And here the Nation of Israel is delineated from the rest of the world by the phrase "and upon the earth, distress of nations." The seas are always symbolic of the mass of humanity on the earth. These things are commonly understood outside the Rapture crowd and can be much more easily documented and supported.

Men's hearts failing for fear, and of what they see coming upon the earth. This terminology doesn't necessarily indicate someone having a heart attack. But when men saw their kingdoms, their livelihoods and the way of life they have always known being torn down by The Message as it swept through their region, their hearts failed. The natural human inclination toward compassion and dignity failed when it came to dealing with those who brought The Message. They had no mercy or remorse when they had them beheaded, starved, boiled in hot oil, or fed to lions. It was fear that prompted this. It was fear that was at the heart of the persecution that lasted for 300 years. Men's hearts failed to produce what would have been there under any other circumstance.

It may almost seem trite to you for me to say these things. Like it is easy for me to say these things, but they aren't really true. But if you look into history, and really get your brain wrapped around the geo-political conditions of the world at that time, the "triteness" disappears. It becomes very real.

The powers of the earth were shaken to their very core by the effect of The Message as it spread from place to place. This isn't told to us in most learning institutions today, not even at University level. Those earthly rulers at that time very clearly did see the Son of Man coming with great power and glory. And it scared the pants off of them. The clouds indicate witnesses. We are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses. Again, Early Church era figure of speech, repeated several times in the New Testament. It has nothing to do with flying away someplace. It is OK to allow the scriptures to validate themselves this way. It works much better than having to keep mining the depths of confusion to make sense of something that isn't there to begin with. ;-)

When you see all these things...
"Lift up your heads, your redemption draweth nigh." Look up! (as in anticipation) your redemption is coming soon. Look up from your downtrodden condition. Look up in anticipation, for you are about to be released from your bondage to sickness and decay, and released into the glorious liberty of the Sons of God.

There is no reason to turn this into some dark comedy of flying away somewhere else. We are staying here. We have work to do. We were created unto good works and that we should live in them. We have nothing to fear of some mark of the Beast or Anti-Christ. Even John told us that in his time "there are already many antichrists gone out into the world. No. In all these things we are more than conquerors through Christ Jesus. We are Overcomers. We are the righteousness of God in Christ. And as He is, so are we in this world.

Sorry, Ben, it is NOT symbolism! These are real signs in the sun, moon and stars.

Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

Note: this verse is not speaking of the same event that Luke was speaking of, but yet, the same signs or nearly the same signs will be there. Joel is speaking of a time before the 70th week, which will be fulfilled at the 6th seal, while Luke is speaking of a time after the 70th week has finished, and just before Jesus will return, as in Rev. 19.

There is yet a time coming where men's hearts will fail them for fear. Just read the effects of the 6th seal.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

preterist said

So was it fulfilled or was it not fulfilled?

NOT!

Coop

 

[lecoop]

...

Does anyone really think the new heaven and new earth of Rev 21:1 came to pass in 70 AD? Give me a break!! :roll:

: Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! :

Great point!

Coop

 

[lecoop]

BenJasher said

Bottom line: It has always been dangerous to be right.

When salvation is at stake, it is even more dangerous to be wrong!

If there is indeed a rapture still in our future, and there certainly is, it is written that Jesus is coming for those looking for His coming." You have clearly showed us that you are not looking.

If the rapture is true doctrine, and it most certainly is, it appears that you will be "left behind." Better grab that book and start reading!

Coop

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Re: reply

: Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! :
Coop

Coop!!!!
Welcome to the thread! :-D
What took you so long?

 

[lecoop]

If there is anything that is going to be taken out of this world, it is going to be the wicked. And that my friend is scriptural.

And no, I am not wrong. I have nothing to fear on those grounds.

Finally, BenJasher, you have said something I can agree with.

Matthew 24:40
Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

We do NOT want to be the ones taken here. What is this speaking about?

Matt 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Who does the gathering? Angels. Where are they gathered to? The furnace of fire: hell!

However, just as these evil people are "taken," so is the church taken. John saw the church, in heaven, before the 70th week starts. How did they get there? They were "taken." First to the air, then to heaven. And so shall we ever be with the Lord! : -)))

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Re: reply

Coop!!!!
Welcome to the thread! :-D
What took you so long?

Sorry! Busy straightening out wrong thinking on all the other threads! He he!

Coop

 

[BenJasher]

Sorry! Busy straightening out wrong thinking on all the other threads! He he!

Not from what I witnessed. Sorry!

 

[BenJasher]

Sorry, BenJasher, there is no confusion, unless it is on your side. It is all pretty simple:

3). Rapture: John sees crowd without number in heaven. (Hint: earthquakes seem to happen with resurrections.)

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! :smt040 Who told you that?!! You have witnessed alot of resurrections I gather. When was the last one?

5). 6 trumpets are blown (one kills 1/3 of human population.)

Are you not aware that the Black Plague killed 13million people, which was the equivalent of 1/3 of the earth's population at the time? So why are you looking to the future for something that happened in the past? :smt102

.....Abomonation takes place: Antichrist declares to be God in the temple.
.....Image also set up in temple
.....Satan cast down from heaven
.....Remnant flees into the wilderness

This was all fulfilled before 70 a.d. You aren't really too familiar with Church History, are you?

This has been a hoot, let's do it again sometime.

 

[lecoop]

This was all fulfilled before 70 a.d. You aren't really too familiar with Church History, are you?

This has been a hoot, let's do it again sometime.

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! I guess it is you that do not know your history! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! You did not notice that the black plague lasted for over 4 years, between 1346 and 1351. And it was limited to Europe. Sorry, but the 6th trumpet is world wide, and is done in a few short months. You seem to have forgotton that six trumpets must all be blown the 3 1/2 year period. Back to prophecy 101 for you!

Coop

 

[BenJasher]

There you go again, adding all that futuristic stuff to things for which it does not pertain. Are you sure that you are not a used car salesman?

I guess it wouldn't matter to you if I could show you step-by-step where the seals, vials, and trumpets were fulfilled down through history, you would still close your eyes and your mind. It is extremely astounding to me that someone will look at something like the Black Plague, and refuse to examine the minuscule details of that page of history which leave no doubt it's relationship to prophecy. It is only one of the many things down through history that authenticates not only the scriptures, but the historicist interpretation of prophecy.

Now where do you get the idea that the 6th trumpet is going to affect the whole world, or that it is going to happen in only a few short months? Not only that, but where did you come up with the ridiculous idea that 6 of the seven trumpets must be blown in 3 and 1/2 years? You didn't get that from the scriptures. I guarantee it. Back to Prophecy 101 for you. Don't come back in here til you graduate this time.

By the way, when was the last time you witnessed a resurrection? I don't recall any earthquakes around here. You seemed to be an authority on those things. Ya wanna share some of that information with me? I'm willing to learn. Honest!

 

[lecoop]

There you go again, adding all that futuristic stuff to things for which it does not pertain. Are you sure that you are not a used car salesman?

I guess it wouldn't matter to you if I could show you step-by-step where the seals, vials, and trumpets were fulfilled down through history, you would still close your eyes and your mind. It is extremely astounding to me that someone will look at something like the Black Plague, and refuse to examine the minuscule details of that page of history which leave no doubt it's relationship to prophecy. It is only one of the many things down through history that authenticates not only the scriptures, but the historicist interpretation of prophecy.

Now where do you get the idea that the 6th trumpet is going to affect the whole world, or that it is going to happen in only a few short months? Not only that, but where did you come up with the ridiculous idea that 6 of the seven trumpets must be blown in 3 and 1/2 years? You didn't get that from the scriptures. I guarantee it. Back to Prophecy 101 for you. Don't come back in here til you graduate this time.

By the way, when was the last time you witnessed a resurrection? I don't recall any earthquakes around here. You seemed to be an authority on those things. Ya wanna share some of that information with me? I'm willing to learn. Honest!

Sure! Go back to when Jesus died. There was a big earthquake. And guess what else? There was a resurrection! Read it here:

Matt. 27
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

The sixth trumpet world wide? Actually, by inference.

Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Where on the earth, will be found men that have not the seal of God? Wouldn't it be around the globe? Therefore, if the fifth seal is world wide, I suspect that the 6th seal will be likewise.

12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Now then, would something on the sun affect only a part of the earth, or all if it?

...it is going to happen in only a few short months? Not only that, but where did you come up with the ridiculous idea that 6 of the seven trumpets must be blown in 3 and 1/2 years? You didn't get that from the scriptures. I guarantee it.

It is very simple, really. Daniel said that the abomination would take place in the middle of the week, effectively dividing the 7 year period into two each 3 1/2 year periods. Daniel proves this by mentioning the 3 1/2 years twice. John confirms this by mentioning this time frame five different times!

Now, where in Revelation is this exact midpoint? It is at the 7th trumpet. This seventh trumpet is found very near all the five mentions of the 3 1/2 year period.

If the 7th trumpet marks the exact midpoint, and it does, then the first six trumpets are in the first half of the week, and the vials are in the second half of the week. Therefore, the time frame for one trumpet will be just a few months. In fact, if each trumpet was 5 months in duration, with a two month reprieve before the next one, to give people time to repent, then 6 times 7 months equals 42 months - the exact time of the first half of the week. In fact, we read this:

9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months:

So I do indeed get this from scripture. Sorry, never have sold cars!

I guess it wouldn't matter to you if I could show you step-by-step where the seals, vials, and trumpets were fulfilled down through history,

If you did, it would undoubtedly be like your attempt with the black plague. Sorry, I don't buy it. Maybe I should be a used car buyer! : -))))

We can't take modern books for scripture, but if they agree, why not read them? Have you read, "Heaven is So Real," by Choo Thomas? Jesus has taken her to heaven 17 different times, so that she could write about it. It is a good read. And it fits the future doctrine of Revelation!

Coop

 

[stranger]

Re: prophesy

Yeah, I heard about that.
The neat thing I have discovered about prophesies, that if all of it is not fulfilled the way that it is stated, then the event is not the actual fulfilment of the prophesy.

Hi Gabbylittleangel,

This is a good point - that is why I am curious concerning a Preterist - about what remains to be fulfilled. eg. this passage

Jer.31:34 NASB
And they shall not teach again, each man his neighbour and each man his brother, saying: 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.' declares the Lord, 'for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.

Now this prophecy has not been fulfilled yet at any point in Israel's history.
I believe this refers to an end time blessing for the nation of Israel yet future.

In Christ Stranger

 

[lecoop]

Stranger wrote

Now this prophecy has not been fulfilled yet at any point in Israel's history.
I believe this refers to an end time blessing for the nation of Israel yet future.

You have NAILED that one! : -)))

Coop