If you believe you can lose your salvation, you are not saved!(explanation)

[FreeGrace]

dad said:
"Works" primarily means "works of the law", not "any effort on the believer's part". Christians shouldn't perform "works" at all because it's a Jewish thing.
Please support this with facts from Scripture.

Please see post 262.

That post didn't support that statement.

 

[dadof10]

My pleasure: 2 Pet 1:5-8 (NIV) - 5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Then, Peter tells us what happens if we don't add to our faith: 9But if anyone does not have them, he is near sighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

Also, see Heb 4:11, 12:14 and 2 Pet 3:14, all in NIV.
2 Pet 3:14 - So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this,make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him.

I think you misunderstood me. I didn't mean for you to search the word "effort" and post the verses. I could have done that. None of these verses come close to drawing the parallel between "works" and "any effort a believer can do".

Please support this with facts from Scripture.

Certainly you don't mean you want biblical evidence that Christians shouldn't keep the Mosaic law. So, I'll post evidence that by the word "works" Paul means "works of the law".

We ourselves, who are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners, yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified. (Gal.2:15-16 RSV)

Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On the principle of works? No, but on the principle of faith. For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith. (Rom. 3:27-30 RSV)

There are many more, but these should suffice. In the first verses, Paul tells us that works "of the law" don't justify. He doesn't mention baptism, charity sacrifice, etc. ONLY works of the law. In the second set, he directly ties "works" to "works of the law".

I sure hope you meant "justify us" in the eyes of others, since we are justified by God through faith. Rom 3 and 4. And the words "works" and "deeds" seem to be interchangeable in the NT. And various translations use either word in the same verses.

But "works" is never tied to anything but "works of the law" when contrasted to faith! That's the point. When Paul contrasts faith and works "works" never means "all deeds done", it is ALWAYS tied to the law of Moses, therefore when I say "obedient faith justifies" or that "we must obey God to be justified" or "we are not justified by faith alone", I am not contradicting Paul.

Actually, there is such thing as a "disobedient faith", it is faith that saves.

Huh? Where does Scripture teach that "disobedient" faith saves? And please don't just do a search for the word "disobedient", post the verses and say "see?"...I need a little explanation, if you could.

 

[dadof10]

dad said:
"Works" primarily means "works of the law", not "any effort on the believer's part". Christians shouldn't perform "works" at all because it's a Jewish thing.
Please support this with facts from Scripture.

Really? Do you believe the opposite? Do you think Christians are bound by the Mosaic law? Are Christians also bound by the Muslim laws?

 

[Drew]

dad said:
"Works" primarily means "works of the law", not "any effort on the believer's part". Christians shouldn't perform "works" at all because it's a Jewish thing.
Please support this with facts from Scripture.

That post didn't support that statement.

In a serious debate, you actually need to engage the details of my argument - you cannot simply say you disagree.

 

[Drew]

"Works" primarily means "works of the law", not "any effort on the believer's part". Christians shouldn't perform "works" at all because it's a Jewish thing.

Of course. And this is obvious from a range of texts, not least this one from Romans #:

28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
[Romans 3:28-30, NASB]

This is really quite obvious - Paul is saying that if "works" could justify, the Gentile would be out of luck. There is no doubt that this is what Paul is saying. And so Paul must be referring to the works of the Law of Moses, since the Gentile does not have that Law and cannot do its "works".

 

[dadof10]

Of course. And this is obvious from a range of texts, not least this one from Romans #:

28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
[Romans 3:28-30, NASB]

This is really quite obvious - Paul is saying that if "works" could justify, the Gentile would be out of luck. There is no doubt that this is what Paul is saying. And so Paul must be referring to the works of the Law of Moses, since the Gentile does not have that Law and cannot do its "works".

I don't see any verses that teach Christians to uphold the Mosaic law, even though the apostles did. It seems the Jewish Christians chose to keep it, but it certainly wasn't required. I think that might have been why there was so much confusion, why the "Judiazers" gained traction and eventually had to be put down by the first council. I mean, I can see their point. Jesus was a Jew most of the early Christians were Jews.

 

[FreeGrace]

I think you misunderstood me. I didn't mean for you to search the word "effort" and post the verses. I could have done that. None of these verses come close to drawing the parallel between "works" and "any effort a believer can do".

I understand that would be your opinion.

Certainly you don't mean you want biblical evidence that Christians shouldn't keep the Mosaic law. So, I'll post evidence that by the word "works" Paul means "works of the law".

We ourselves, who are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners, yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified. (Gal.2:15-16 RSV)

Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On the principle of works? No, but on the principle of faith. For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith. (Rom. 3:27-30 RSV)

This is all irrelevant, since Paul also wrote this about Gentiles, who do not have the Mosaic Law:

"14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them," Rom 2:14,15

The point is this: God has given everyone a conscience. Everyone has a sense of right and wrong. Whether one wants to distinguish between "works of the Law" and simply good deeds, I don't care. It makes no difference. Those who do the works of the Law are doing good deeds, obviously. So your argument is moot.

But "works" is never tied to anything but "works of the law" when contrasted to faith! That's the point. When Paul contrasts faith and works "works" never means "all deeds done", it is ALWAYS tied to the law of Moses, therefore when I say "obedient faith justifies" or that "we must obey God to be justified" or "we are not justified by faith alone", I am not contradicting Paul.

Moot point. Good deeds are works of the Law, obviously. There really is no difference.

Huh? Where does Scripture teach that "disobedient" faith saves?

Apparently my post was either not read at all, or only given a very cursory glance. Please go back and read it. I never said anything to lead to such a question.

And please don't just do a search for the word "disobedient", post the verses and say "see?"...I need a little explanation, if you could.

And it was given in my previous post, which wasn't read or read very carefully.

 

[FreeGrace]

Really? Do you believe the opposite? Do you think Christians are bound by the Mosaic law? Are Christians also bound by the Muslim laws?

[Please take note: Declaring others' posts are silly and irrelevant is your opinion, disrespectful of other's, and a violation of ToS 2.4. Please review ToS 2.4. WIP] Christians are bound by the NT commands.

 

[Seabass]

Romans 6:23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Ask yourself, is a gift free? Who pays for a gift the giver or the receiver? Who had to pay for our eternal life? How did it get paid? How many times do you have to receive eternal life as a free gift for it to last forever? If you believe you can lose your salvation, you will end up working and putting your effort into doing, or not doing that you think makes you lose your salvation, like committing big sins of adultery, or even worse. When you are done living your life, you die and you meet God, you are telling God he is in DEBT and owes it to you to save you from burning in hell, because of SOMETHING YOU DID here on earth to try to keep your salvation. Does the bible says God owes us anything? Is there a single promise in the bible for partial faith in Christ, and partially in your good works, or giving up sins to save you? The promise is for those who ONLY believe ON Jesus for salvation. Lets take a look at what Jesus is going to say to the best christians out there, who failed to trust ON Jesus olny, but relied in their good works to save them: Matthew 7:22 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Notice, it doesn't say I used to know you and you lost your salvation because of a big sin, he NEVER knew you, that means you were never born again(saved) to begin with. Lets look at a verse where the bible clearly states the believer CAN KNOW he has everlasting life, which means he can be 100% sure he is saved, and on his way to heaven. 1 john 5:13 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." If you don't believe you have eternal life this moment, and that you are saved forever, and must do something to keep your salvation, you are making God a liar, because he said we can know, I will throw a few more verses in to show that salvation is by faith only!
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. Ephesians 2:8,9 we are told, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Now, lets look at what God thinks of your self effort toward getting into heaven by your good works, or giving up sins!
Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Paul knew he could become a reprobate, 1 Cor 9:27, therefore was Paul not saved???

Good works cannot save a lost sinner yet obedient works in doing the will of God can save the lost sinner. No one can be saved while they continue in disobeying the will of God. Matt 7:21 those that enter the kingdom of heaven are the one that DO the will of the Father. Those Jesus never knew are were lost were lost for failing to DO the will of the Father. There an be no salvation without DOING >working the will of the Father. SO salvation is CONDITIONAL upon the work and continued work in doing the will of the Father. The verb "believeth" in Jn 3:36 is a work and not just a mere mental acknowledgment of facts/mental assent of the mind and nothing else. 'Believeth' means DOING what Christ has said to do, Luke 6:46, it means DOING the will of the Father per Matt 7:21. If one is not DOING then he is not believing per Jn 3:36.

The context of Isa 64:6 speaks of Israel at a time when they were in iniquity...."our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away" verse 6 and " hast consumed us, because of our iniquities" verse 7. Isa 64:5 for those not living in iniquity then God meets/entreats/helps those that worketh righteousness and their righteousness are not counted as filthy rags. Acts 10:35 God accepts those that work righteousness and not treated as filthy rags.

If working righteousness/doing, obeying the will of God = filthy rags......then........

Mt 7:21 one cannot enter the kingdom of heaven unless he has filthy rags (doeth the will of the Father)
Rom 10:3 those fleshly Jews were lost for not have submitted unto the filthy rags (righteousness) of God.
Heb 5:8 Christ learned filthy rags (obedience) by the things which He suffered.
Heb 5:9 Christ is the author of salvation unto all them that have filthy rags (obey)
2 Thess 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that have no filthy rags (obey not)..

 

[Jethro Bodine]

On numerous occasions, while discussing James 2, you have made the point that faith that doesn't justify is "dead faith".

No. You're putting an unfair spin on what I said (whether intentionally, or not is not the point). James defines dead faith as the faith that is alone, being unaccompanied by works.

"faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself." (James 2:17 NASB bold mine, italics in original)

This has nothing to do with the fact that there is faith that moves someone to do something faithful and obedient, but is still incapable of justifying the person who does that work. One thing I learned from the Messianics is that it is entirely possible, for example, to keep Sabbath, and be doing that out of faith in God, just as we 'don't steal' because we have faith in God, knowing full well that 'not stealing' does not wipe away past transgressions and make us righteous. IOW, 'do not steal' can not, and does not have the power to justify a person.

 

[FreeGrace]

Paul knew he could become a reprobate, 1 Cor 9:27, therefore was Paul not saved???

Paul was saved. It was he who defined the gifts of God as justification in Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 and eternal life in Rom 6:23, and then he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable. He was saved and taught OSAS.

Good works cannot save a lost sinner yet obedient works in doing the will of God can save the lost sinner.

The Bible teaches neither of these statements. The will of God is stated clearly in John 6:24 - “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

No one can be saved while they continue in disobeying the will of God.

The Bible teaches that salvation is by grace through faith, and not by works, per Eph 2:8,9.

Matt 7:21 those that enter the kingdom of heaven are the one that DO the will of the Father.

Which is what Jesus said in John 6:40. See above.

Those Jesus never knew are were lost were lost for failing to DO the will of the Father.

They were lost because they didn't believe in Christ, per John 6:40. They never believed and therefore, never received eternal life. 1 Tim 1:16.

There an be no salvation without DOING >working the will of the Father.

The singular condition or requirement for salvation is believing in Christ, according to the Bible.

SO salvation is CONDITIONAL upon the work and continued work in doing the will of the Father.

John 6:40 is the only will of God that will lead to salvation.

The verb "believeth" in Jn 3:36 is a work and not just a mere mental acknowledgment of facts/mental assent of the mind and nothing else.

There is nothing in Greek lexicons about believing to be more than faith, trust and reliance upon...

'Believeth' means DOING what Christ has said to do, Luke 6:46

Here is the verse, which doesn't support your claim: “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what Isay?" Jesus was pointing out hypocrisy, not how to get saved.

it means DOING the will of the Father per Matt 7:21.

No, again, the ONLY "will of the Father" that results in salvation is found in John 6:40.

 

[Stan1953]

Romans 6:23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Ask yourself, is a gift free? Who pays for a gift the giver or the receiver? Who had to pay for our eternal life? How did it get paid? How many times do you have to receive eternal life as a free gift for it to last forever? If you believe you can lose your salvation, you will end up working and putting your effort into doing, or not doing that you think makes you lose your salvation, like committing big sins of adultery, or even worse. When you are done living your life, you die and you meet God, you are telling God he is in DEBT and owes it to you to save you from burning in hell, because of SOMETHING YOU DID here on earth to try to keep your salvation. Does the bible says God owes us anything? Is there a single promise in the bible for partial faith in Christ, and partially in your good works, or giving up sins to save you? The promise is for those who ONLY believe ON Jesus for salvation. Lets take a look at what Jesus is going to say to the best Christians out there, who failed to trust ON Jesus only, but relied in their good works to save them: Matthew 7:22 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Notice, it doesn't say I used to know you and you lost your salvation because of a big sin, he NEVER knew you, that means you were never born again(saved) to begin with. Lets look at a verse where the bible clearly states the believer CAN KNOW he has everlasting life, which means he can be 100% sure he is saved, and on his way to heaven. 1 john 5:13 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." If you don't believe you have eternal life this moment, and that you are saved forever, and must do something to keep your salvation, you are making God a liar, because he said we can know, I will throw a few more verses in to show that salvation is by faith only!
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. Ephesians 2:8,9 we are told, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Now, lets look at what God thinks of your self effort toward getting into heaven by your good works, or giving up sins!
Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

2 Thess 2:3 (NIV) shows us there will be a GREAT falling away, and Heb 6:4-6 (NIV) and Heb 10:38-39 (NIV) shows people DO become apostate. It's not losing salvation, it's a choice people make to stop believing in who they confessed as their saviour. I agree with your perspective on Matt 7:22 (NIV), as there will be a separating of the sheep and goats, and the goats were NEVER sheep.

As far as salvation depends on God's grace, He indeed can keep us, but as far as it depends on us, WE must persevere and walk in faith at all times. Once a person stops believing or walking in faith, that is the first step to apostasy and falling into oblivion.

 

[Seabass]

Paul was saved. It was he who defined the gifts of God as justification in Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 and eternal life in Rom 6:23, and then he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable. He was saved and taught OSAS.

The title of the thread says "If you believe you can lose your salvation, you are not saved". As I pointed out, Paul knew he could become a reprobate 1 Cor 9:27 so the thread title is not true according to Paul nor did Paul teach OSAS.
God promise to CONDITIONALLY save them that obey, Heb 5:9 and those that quit obeying therefore lose God's promise of salvation. In Rom 11:29 God had promised salvation to the Jews through their conditional faith in Christ, yet most rejected Christ. Even though the majority of Jews rejected Christ, God did not "revoke" or repent of that promise but instead left that door of the promise of salvation ajar for the Jews. God nowhere ever promised unconditional salvation to the Jews whereby they could never lose it under any circumstance. The Jews went from being God's elect/God's chosen to being lost....no eternal security for the Jews or the rest of us for Paul even warned the Gentiles, who that were grafted in, to take heed lest God spare not them also, Rom 11:21.

The Bible teaches neither of these statements. The will of God is stated clearly in John 6:24 - “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

Belief is an obedient work that saves. Belief is not a mere mental assent of the mind but believing is doing what Christ said to do, Lk 6:46.

The Bible teaches that salvation is by grace through faith, and not by works, per Eph 2:8,9.

Faith is a work, 1 Thess 1:3, so the phrase "not of works" cannot eliminate the obedient work of faith.
The phrase "not of works" refers to works of merit since salvation cannot be earned. The phrase does not refer to the work of obeying/doing the will of the Father, Mt 7:21.

Which is what Jesus said in John 6:40. See above.

It is important to note what Jesus did NOT say in Jn 6:40 above...Jesus did NOT say "... that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth ONLY on him,....." Christ NEVER taught belief only saves but also taught one must repent, Lk 13:3; confess, Matt 10:32,33 and be baptized, Mk 16:16 to be saved. Therefore a NT belief INCLUDES repentance confession and baptism. Jesus did not contradict Himself by saying one one hand believing only saves but then saying one must also repent confess and be baptized to be saved.

They were lost because they didn't believe in Christ, per John 6:40. They never believed and therefore, never received eternal life. 1 Tim 1:16.

Matt 7:21, the context says "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

Those that DOETH the will of the Father are the ones that enter the kingdom. Jesus never said those that have belief only void of works enter the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus did not know them for they were not doing His will, Lk 6:46.

The singular condition or requirement for salvation is believing in Christ, according to the Bible.

Nowhere did Jesus say belief only saves. Jesus also made repentance confession and baptism of equal importance and necessity to salvation as belief meaning that a saving belief includes repentance confession and baptism. Can all the belief only in the world save an impenitent person? No.

Again, Jesus did not contradict Himself by saying one one hand believing only saves but then saying one must also repent confess and be baptized to be saved.

John 6:40 is the only will of God that will lead to salvation.

1) is it understood Jesus did NOT say "believeth ONLY on Him"??
Some add the word 'only' to the verse trying to make Jesus say something He never said.

2) is it understood that Jesus did not say Jn 6:40 and nothing else but also said Lk 13:3, Matt 10:32,33 and Mk 16:16 where He made repentance, confession and baptism necessary to becoming saved? Jesus would not contradict Himself by saying in one verse "belief only saves" then contradict that in other verses by making repentance confession and baptism essential to becoming saved.

There is nothing in Greek lexicons about believing to be more than faith, trust and reliance upon...

Is the bible or Greek lexicons the repository of God's truth?
The bible demonstrates that a NT belief INCLUDES repentance confession and baptism else there are contradictions in the words of Christ.

Here is the verse, which doesn't support your claim: “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what Isay?" Jesus was pointing out hypocrisy, not how to get saved.

Jesus is pointing out that He is NOT the Lord of those that do not do what He says. Lk 6:46

No, again, the ONLY "will of the Father" that results in salvation is found in John 6:40.

You left out the word "DOETH" from Mt 7:21..... those that DOETH the will of the Father are the ones that enter the kingdom.
That must mean that "believing" in Jn 6:40 is DOING, an act, a deed, a work that must include repentance, confession and baptism.

 

[Sinthesis]

Gal 5:4 - Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
​

One cannot fall from grace without first being given grace. Because one can be justified by the law, justification is not the same as salvation.

 

[JLB]

Belief is an obedient work that saves. Belief is not a mere mental assent of the mind but believing is doing what Christ said to do, Lk 6:46.

This scripture sure does validate what you are saying.

Heb 5:9

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
Hebrews 5:9


JLB

 

[Seabass]

This scripture sure does validate what you are saying.

Heb 5:9

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
Hebrews 5:9


JLB

1)Christ saves those that obey, Heb 5:9.
2)Christ saves those that believe Jn 3:16.
3) therefore obey = believe



Since there is just one way to be saved then the logical implication is believing is obeying/obedience. Believing must include repentance, confession and baptism or Christ contradicts Himself.

 

[FreeGrace]

The title of the thread says "If you believe you can lose your salvation, you are not saved". As I pointed out, Paul knew he could become a reprobate 1 Cor 9:27 so the thread title is not true according to Paul nor did Paul teach OSAS.

1 Cor 9:27 - but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified (adokimos).
adokimos
1) not standing the test, not approved
1a) properly used of metals and coins
2) that which does not prove itself such as it ought
2a) unfit for, unproved, spurious, reprobate

Interesting that you go to the least meant word there, for lexicons list the semantic range of meanings from most common usage to least. In fact, Paul was saying that he disciplined himself so that he wouldn't be disapproved, which is a far cry from any thought of losing salvation.

God promise to CONDITIONALLY save them that obey, Heb 5:9 and those that quit obeying therefore lose God's promise of salvation.

Heb 5:9 - And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation

It should be clear about who will obey Him; that would be believers only. Why would anyone think that any unbeliever would obey Him? So this verse says nothing about HOW one will be saved, or on what basis. It's just a statement about the fact that He is the source of salvation. And it is obvious that only believers will obey Him.

But, obedience isn't the basis for salvation. Believing in Him is, as the abundance of Scripture testifies:
Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned
Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."
Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'
Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Rom 10:9, 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

I can provide a list of 9 verses that base the receiving of eternal life on believing in Christ as well.

And none of the 21 verses mention obedience as a condition.

In Rom 11:29 God had promised salvation to the Jews through their conditional faith in Christ, yet most rejected Christ. Even though the majority of Jews rejected Christ, God did not "revoke" or repent of that promise but instead left that door of the promise of salvation ajar for the Jews.

The error here is in the assumption that an offer of salvation to the Jews is the "gift" noted in Rom 11:29. It is NOT, for Paul never defined any offer as a gift in Romans. In fact, he did define "God's gifts" as justification in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 and eternal life in 6:23. It is these gifts of God that are irrevocable.

God nowhere ever promised unconditional salvation to the Jews whereby they could never lose it under any circumstance.

Is there any Biblical teaching to support this claim? No, there is not.

It is important to note what Jesus did NOT say in Jn 6:40 above...Jesus did NOT say "... that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth ONLY on him,....." Christ NEVER taught belief only saves but also taught one must repent, Lk 13:3; confess, Matt 10:32,33 and be baptized, Mk 16:16 to be saved. Therefore a NT belief INCLUDES repentance confession and baptism.

I've given 12 verses that refutes your claim, and there are 9 more about eternal life based on faith apart from anything else.

Jesus did not contradict Himself by saying one one hand believing only saves but then saying one must also repent confess and be baptized to be saved.

imho, this would take hours of teaching to clear out all the error in your claims, but suffice it to say, repentance in the Greek means to "change the mind", which is absolutely necessary in order to believe in Christ. So there is no contradiction between repentance and belief. And Mark 16:16 is a disputed text, as it doesn't exist in the earliest manuscripts, but only in later ones, which indicates from v.9 on was added by a scribe. As far as the confessing of Rom 10:10, that has to do with faithful obedience of a witness and ambassador for Christ, and will result in salvation in the sense of being delivered from temporal trials. But I know this will most likely be rejected.

Matt 7:21, the context says "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

Those that DOETH the will of the Father are the ones that enter the kingdom.

I've already explained that.

Nowhere did Jesus say belief only saves.

Let's be clear about this. Jesus NEVER said that one must work to be saved. When He spoke of salvation or eternal life, it was on the basis of faith in Him APART FROM ANY OTHER CONDITIONS.

Again, Jesus did not contradict Himself by saying one one hand believing only saves but then saying one must also repent confess and be baptized to be saved.

Has been explained.

Is the bible or Greek lexicons the repository of God's truth?

This is an irrelevant question. The ONLY WAY to understand the original language of the NT is to consult the Greek lexicons.

You left out the word "DOETH" from Mt 7:21..... those that DOETH the will of the Father are the ones that enter the kingdom.

I didn't leave anything out. Doing the will of the Father is quite simple: believing in Jesus Christ as Savior.

 

[FreeGrace]

1)Christ saves those that obey, Heb 5:9.
2)Christ saves those that believe Jn 3:16.
3) therefore obey = believe

Since there is just one way to be saved then the logical implication is believing is obeying/obedience. Believing must include repentance, confession and baptism or Christ contradicts Himself.

OK, let's go with this. How much obedience? Perfect, or something less than perfect obedience?

And if less than perfect obedience, exactly what must be obeyed, given ALL the commands in the NT?

If more than believing in Him for eternal life is required, please specify exactly how much and what commands must be obeyed.

And, more than that, must these commands be obeyed continually, or is there any slack in consistency in obeying these necessary commands?

Please answer these questions, because they are quite legitimate in light of your view.

 

[Seabass]

1 Cor 9:27 - but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified (adokimos).
adokimos
1) not standing the test, not approved
1a) properly used of metals and coins
2) that which does not prove itself such as it ought
2a) unfit for, unproved, spurious, reprobate

Interesting that you go to the least meant word there, for lexicons list the semantic range of meanings from most common usage to least. In fact, Paul was saying that he disciplined himself so that he wouldn't be disapproved, which is a far cry from any thought of losing salvation.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G96&t=KJV
According to BlueLetterBible (above link) the word adokimos is found 8 times and in the KJV it is translated "reprobate" 6 of the 8 times.
The word means reprobate and no good reason for it being translated any other way:

"The word "reprobate" here rendered "a castaway" (KJV) is a metaphor derived from the testing of metals, and the casting aside of those which are spurious. That Paul should see the necessity for such serious and unceasing effort shows how little he believed in saintly works of "supererogation, over and above what is commanded." "When the cedar of Lebanon trembles, what shall the reed by the brookside do?"
F. W. Farrar, The Pulpit Commentary (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1950), Vol. 19, p. 291.

Heb 5:9 - And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation

It should be clear about who will obey Him; that would be believers only. Why would anyone think that any unbeliever would obey Him? So this verse says nothing about HOW one will be saved, or on what basis. It's just a statement about the fact that He is the source of salvation. And it is obvious that only believers will obey Him.

The point of Heb 9:6 is Christ saves those that obey, it does not say Christ saves those that believe only. Belief only is not obeying.

But, obedience isn't the basis for salvation. Believing in Him is, as the abundance of Scripture testifies:
Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned
Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."
Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'
Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Rom 10:9, 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

I can provide a list of 9 verses that base the receiving of eternal life on believing in Christ as well.

And none of the 21 verses mention obedience as a condition.

Believing is obedience. Christ said one must believe, repent confess and be baptized to be saved, Jn 8:24; Lk 13:3, Matt 10:32,33; Mk 16:16 and those that do what Christ said are obeying.
Believing, repentance, confession and baptism are all obedience.

The error here is in the assumption that an offer of salvation to the Jews is the "gift" noted in Rom 11:29. It is NOT, for Paul never defined any offer as a gift in Romans. In fact, he did define "God's gifts" as justification in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 and eternal life in 6:23. It is these gifts of God that are irrevocable.

The context of Romans chpt 11 tells us the fleshly Jews were cast off Rom 11:15 so there was no OSAS for the Jews.
Even though the fleshy Jews were cast off by God, Paul says these Jews are "beloved for the fathers' sake"

Why are these cast off Jews still 'beloved' by God? For God did not cut the Jews off from the promise He made to Abraham: "
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice." Gen 22:18. God was not going to revoke what He said to Abraham and cut the fleshly Jews off from salvation completely but left the door of salvation left open for them..as seen in the great commission with the gospel going to both Gentiles AND JEWS. So the offer of salvation has not been permanently revoked from the Jews, God is longsuffering, 2 Pet 3:9.

The fleshy Jews are examples that OSAS is not in the bible for the Jews went from being God's chosen, to being cast off due to unbelief, Rom 11:20 and yet still could be grafted in Rom 11:23 if they would believe the Christ. God never promised the Jews that their being God's elect/God's chosen was irrevocable.

Is there any Biblical teaching to support this claim? No, there is not.

God promised salvation to them that obey, Heb 5:9 an promised to have vengeance upon them that "obey not" the gospel of Christ 2 Thess 1:8. Since it is impossible for God to lie, Heb6:18, these are two irrevocable promises. So if the Christian quits obeying God then God will have vengeance upon him.

I've given 12 verses that refutes your claim, and there are 9 more about eternal life based on faith apart from anything else.

I have shown already believing is obedience. What you have not given is the verse that says God will save those that remain in their disobedience.

imho, this would take hours of teaching to clear out all the error in your claims, but suffice it to say, repentance in the Greek means to "change the mind", which is absolutely necessary in order to believe in Christ. So there is no contradiction between repentance and belief. And Mark 16:16 is a disputed text, as it doesn't exist in the earliest manuscripts, but only in later ones, which indicates from v.9 on was added by a scribe. As far as the confessing of Rom 10:10, that has to do with faithful obedience of a witness and ambassador for Christ, and will result in salvation in the sense of being delivered from temporal trials. But I know this will most likely be rejected.

It took me less than a minute to type out the following verses;
Jn 8:24; Lk 13:3,5; Mat 10:32,33 and Mk 16:16 where Jesus made repentance confession and baptism of equal importance and necessity to salvation as He did with belief.
All the belief only in the world can never save the impenitent person. Lk 13:3,5; Rom 2:4,5
All the belief only in the world can never save the one who refuses to confess Christ. Mt 10:32,33, Rom 10:9,10
All the belief only in the world will never save the one who rejects the gospel by not being baptized, Acts 2:41

Jesus never contradicted Himself by saying belief only saves when He made repentance confession and baptism just as essential to salvation as belief.

It's been proven that Mk 16:16 is just as genuine as any other verse in the bible.

I've already explained that.


Let's be clear about this. Jesus NEVER said that one must work to be saved. When He spoke of salvation or eternal life, it was on the basis of faith in Him APART FROM ANY OTHER CONDITIONS.

Jesus did day one must believe, repent confess and submit to baptism all of which are works, some thing done.
Jn 6:27 Jesus said to WORK for the meat that endures unto everlasting life........no work = no everlasting life.

What Jesus NEVER said is "do nothing and thou shalt be saved".

Has been explained.


This is an irrelevant question. The ONLY WAY to understand the original language of the NT is to consult the Greek lexicons.


I didn't leave anything out. Doing the will of the Father is quite simple: believing in Jesus Christ as Savior.

Jesus said DO the will of the Father. Belief only is not 'doing'

 

[Seabass]

OK, let's go with this. How much obedience? Perfect, or something less than perfect obedience?

Already posted many times one needs to obey by believing, repenting confessing and submitting to baptism in order to reveive the promise of salvation. Then one must do good works Eph 2:10 and remain faithful unto death Rev 2:10 to maintain this promise of salvation.

And if less than perfect obedience, exactly what must be obeyed, given ALL the commands in the NT?

No one is perfectly sinless.
1Jn 1:7 the Christian continues to walk in the light, then the blood of Christ will continue to wash away ALL sins. The walk is not perfect but as long as the Christian continues to CONDITIONALLY walk in the light then all his sins will be cleansed away. If the Christian quits CONDITIONALLY walking in the light then NONE of his sins are washed away and becomes lost.

If more than believing in Him for eternal life is required, please specify exactly how much and what commands must be obeyed.

And, more than that, must these commands be obeyed continually, or is there any slack in consistency in obeying these necessary commands?

Please answer these questions, because they are quite legitimate in light of your view.

Can one who is impenitent be saved anyway? no
Can one who denies Christ and will not confess Him be saved anyway? no
Can one who rejects the gospel by not being baptized be saved anyway? no

Therefore since 'belief only' falls short of repenting, confessing and accepting the gospel by being baptized then it falls short of saving.