If you believe you can lose your salvation, you are not saved!(explanation)

[JLB]

See? You're not even addressing my argument.

You blindly insist that a person is not justified until they do something.
I say they are justified when they believe in Christ for the forgiveness of sin (Romans 3:24-25 NASB). Their actions then indicate if 1) they actually had a faith that can justify in the first place, or 2) they continued in that faith.

This is what you repeatedly show me by your responses that you simply do not get about my argument. If you did, you'd address it directly. But you don't.

I have addressed it directly, in several different ways. You just don't seem to understand my answer.

Your doctrine, violently violates the principle of faith, as you teach "faith all by itself" justifies...

The only thing that makes faith work, so that it actually functions, and stimulates the manifestation of the thing hoped for, is the corresponding action of obedience.

I give you scripture after scripture, and all you can do is claim I don't "get" your argument.

Here is a biblical example of this principle in action -

And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment.
21 For she said to herself, "If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well."
22 But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, "Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well." And the woman was made well from that hour. Matthew 9:20-22

If this woman only believed within her heart, and did not do the action of faith, by touching His garment, would she have been made well?

The answer is a resounding, no!

If you violate this principle of faith, then your not walking in righteousness.

As I said before Abraham already walked in the righteousness which is according to faith, WHEN, he obeyed God in Genesis 12.

My claim is without Abraham obeying this initial call to go out... there is no promised children, land or blessing.

The way he received the promises was by obedience.
The way he walked in the righteousness according to faith was obedience.
The way he pleased God was by obedience; The obedience of faith.

1 Now the Lord had said to Abram: "Get out of your country, From your family And from your father's house, To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed." Genesis 12:1-3

Abraham obeyed God by faith, and was an example of those who walked in the righteousness which is according to faith.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You have tried to label me as teaching a "damnable works doctrine", because I said a person is required to "confess with their mouth" the Lord Jesus. The is the action of obedience that goes with believing in the heart.

See?
You still aren't addressing my argument.
How can we continue if you can't understand my argument?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If this woman only believed within her heart, and did not do the action of faith, by touching His garment, would she have been made well?

The answer is a resounding NO!

More shouting through multi-colored emboldened type. The angry suppression of dissenting thought.

Do a Google search for 'emotional abuse'. Study it's characteristics. Trust me. I know what I'm talking about here.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Mods, go ahead and delete these posts.
But please don't close the thread on our account.
I'm out.

 

[JLB]

More shouting through multi-colored emboldened type. The angry suppression of dissenting thought.

Do a Google search for 'emotional abuse'. Study it's characteristics. Trust me. I know what I'm talking about here.

Shouting?

I use color and bold to emphasize a certain word or phrase.

I think you know that?


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"But if one believes that one must perform works to enter heaven, then that view is salvation by works, which is totally unbiblical."

No. You're not listening.

I don't believe that I'm the one who's not listening.

The works are the obligatory evidence that must accompany the faith that justifies all by itself.

If faith justified all by itself, then there is no "obligatory evidence" for it. And that was never James' message.

The works validate the faith as having justified the person.

The believer is justified by faith apart from works.
Eph 2:8,9 - 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

"Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God" (Philippians 2:14-15 NASB)

This has nothing to do with getting or staying saved.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"To take your view to its logical conclusion, one gets into heaven by feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, and visiting those in prison. Is that really all it takes to get into heaven?"

In regard to the emboldened part: Who said that?

It is clear who said that. It came from my post.

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"But if one believes that one must perform works to enter heaven, then that view is salvation by works, which is totally unbiblical."

Unbiblical huh!

Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." John 6:29

If you have read Jethro's post's, you would know he doesn't believe one must perform works to be saved.

If faith justified all by itself, then there is no "obligatory evidence" for it. And that was never James' message.

Agreed

The believer is justified by faith apart from works.
Eph 2:8,9 - 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

Yes apart from the works of the law, which is the context.

And of course apart from works that receive wages, or apart from Good works.


For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

However, one must obey the Gospel command repent, as well as believe.


14 Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."
Mark 1:14-15

again -

11 And whoever will not receive you nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet as a testimony against them. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!"
12 So they went out and preached that people should repent. Mark 6:11-12

again -

Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, Acts 3:19

The is called the obedience of faith.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26


JLB

 

[LovethroughDove]

Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family.

John 14:24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. ~ Jesus

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

Hang with me here. There is a holy fear that keeps you obeying God's word. The perfect love drives out fear..........when we are standing in front of an utterly Holy God. If you love Jesus, truly love him......you will obey what he asks of us.

I believe if you don't have holy fear, you are probably one of those people on the wide path to destruction. Even the Son of God asked if it was the Father's will for him to go to the cross. Luke 22:42 "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

I guess do what you will with what I've said here. I'm saved, and that holy fear is that I haven't done the will of the Father.

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"To take your view to its logical conclusion, one gets into heaven by feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, and visiting those in prison. Is that really all it takes to get into heaven?"

Like Jesus taught us in John 15 -

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; John 15:2

Jesus further explained what "takes away" refers to in verse 6 -

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


These clear and irrefutable statements by Jesus, are the nail in the coffin for OSAS.

Notice the branches are in Him.

These branches that are removed from Him, and that were in Him are thrown into the fire and are burned.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family.

John 14:24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. ~ Jesus

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

Hang with me here. There is a holy fear that keeps you obeying God's word. The perfect love drives out fear..........when we are standing in front of an utterly Holy God. If you love Jesus, truly love him......you will obey what he asks of us.

I believe if you don't have holy fear, you are probably one of those people on the wide path to destruction. Even the Son of God asked if it was the Father's will for him to go to the cross. Luke 22:42 "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

I guess do what you will with what I've said here. I'm saved, and that holy fear is that I haven't done the will of the Father.

The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, To turn one away from the snares of death. Proverbs 14:27

A loving faithfulness to obey, with a holy fear of God, are earmarks of a healthy fruitful relationship with God, and a life that is blessed. Abraham is a good example.

As many as are led by the spirit of God, these are the sons of God. Romans 8:14


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"But if one believes that one must perform works to enter heaven, then that view is salvation by works, which is totally unbiblical."

Unbiblical huh!

Absolutely unbiblical. Salvation is by grace through faith, NOT OF WORKS, lest anyone should boast. Eph 2;8,9

Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." John 6:29

Jesus was speaking tongue-in-cheek, obviously. Or else, Jesus and Paul are in disagreement, which I reject.

Yes apart from the works of the law, which is the context.

Nope. In fact, Paul only mentioned the law once and not until 2:15, which is AFTER 2:9. So when Paul said "not of works" he was meaning anything that creates a debt that is owed to the one working, from Rom 4:4.

However, one must obey the Gospel command repent, as well as believe.

The Greek word for 'repent' means a change of mind, which is necessary in order to believe on Christ. So they are basically synonymous. iow, in order to believe on Christ, one must change their mind about some things.

 

[FreeGrace]

Like Jesus taught us in John 15 -
Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; John 15:2
Jesus further explained what "takes away" refers to in verse 6 -
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
These clear and irrefutable statements by Jesus, are the nail in the coffin for OSAS.
Notice the branches are in Him.
These branches that are removed from Him, and that were in Him are thrown into the fire and are burned.JLB

I find it rather odd that there is nothing in any of this that would lead anyone to believe that salvation can be lost.

 

[JLB]

Absolutely unbiblical. Salvation is by grace through faith, NOT OF WORKS, lest anyone should boast. Eph 2;8,9

Your faith must have the work of obedience for it to function, otherwise it's dead, just as the body without the spirit is dead and does not function.

Do you consider confessing with you rmouth, "Jesus as your Lord" a "work"?

Confession is made unto salvation...
Romans 10:10

Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Romans 10:13


JLB

 

[JLB]

I find it rather odd that there is nothing in any of this that would lead anyone to believe that salvation can be lost.

What does "in Him" mean to you, Freegrace?

If "in Him" doesn't mean in Christ, then what does it mean?

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Your faith must have the work of obedience for it to function

Please back up this opinion with Scripture that says what is claimed.

otherwise it's dead, just as the body without the spirit is dead and does not function.

James' point was about demonstrating one's faith before others.

Do you consider confessing with you rmouth, "Jesus as your Lord" a "work"?

Yes.

Confession is made unto salvation...
Romans 10:10

The issue is being saved from WHAT. Salvation in Rom 10:10 isn't about soul salvation. But that's another story.

 

[FreeGrace]

What does "in Him" mean to you, Freegrace?

If "in Him" doesn't mean in Christ, then what does it mean?

JLB

Of course it means "in Christ". Now, some questions for you:

How is a person placed "in Christ"? Use Scripture.
Can a person be removed from being "in Christ"? Use Scripture.

 

[JLB]

James' point was about demonstrating one's faith before others.

We walk in faith when we obey the Voice of God, that produced the faith within us.

The faith that is produced within us, must find it's expression in the action of obedience, for faith the be "alive' and "active", and able to function, otherwise if there is no corresponding action of obedience, faith is dead and dormant, just like a body without the spirit is dead and dormant and function-less.

Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

and again

20 And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. 21 For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” 22 But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour. Matthew 9:20-22

This woman demonstrated the principle of faith by acting upon what she believed, and therefore through the action of her living faith a divine result was produced.

Faith without the work of obedience is dead.

Faith all by itself is dead, unless it has the corresponding action...

Yes.

Deed is a work.

Words are not classified as a deed or work.

My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 1 John 3:18

Please show us the scripture that teaches us words are work.

The issue is being saved from WHAT. Salvation in Rom 10:10 isn't about soul salvation. But that's another story.[

Isn't about salvation?

Thank you for showing us the deceitfulness of the OSAS doctrine.

5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.”6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’”(that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Romans 10:5-13


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Of course it means "in Christ". Now, some questions for you:

How is a person placed "in Christ"? Use Scripture.
Can a person be removed from being "in Christ"? Use Scripture.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:2,6

These were in Him, and removed from being in Him and were placed in the fire and burned.

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38

It is by the Holy Spirit we are Baptized into Christ.

The way we receive the Holy Spirit is by repenting, which is obeying the Gospel.

Repent and believe the Gospel. Mark 1:15

13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.
1 Corinthians 12:13-14


JLB

 

[JLB]

Jesus was speaking tongue-in-cheek, obviously. Or else, Jesus and Paul are in disagreement, which I reject.

Salvation is given to those who Obey the Gospel.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9


JLB