If you believe you can lose your salvation, you are not saved!(explanation)

[Drew]

Does this maybe address this question at least in part?

Then He spoke many things to them in parables, saying: “Behold, a sower went out to sow. ....... But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.” Matthew 13:18-23 NKJV

Indeed. This text shows that it is indeed possible for someone to "persist in doing good", thereby meriting eternal life as per what Paul wrote in Romans 2:6-7:

6who will render to each person according to hisdeeds: 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; [Romans 2:6-7, NASB]

 

[Drew]

The believer is justified by faith apart from works.
Eph 2:8,9 - 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
This has nothing to do with getting or staying saved.

This famous text continues to be misunderstood.

Here is Ephesians 2:8-9 from the NASB:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that (Y)no one may boast.

In verse 9, the writer is denying the salvific power of doing the works of Law of Moses, and not that of the more general category of “good works”.

A point of method: It simply will not do to declare up front that the writer is talking about good works here. That begs the question, since the term “works” is not qualified by the term “good” or anything else that would rule out the possibility that the “works” of the Law of Moses is the subject. The fair-minded reader needs to ask which of the following views makes more sense given both the local context and the broader context of the whole letter:

1. The salvific power of doing good works is being denied;

2. The salvific power of doing the works of the Law of Moses is being denied.

Explanation 2 is the one that makes sense in light of what the writer goes on to say in verse 11.

Proceeding to an examination of Ephesians 2:11 and following, the author uses the "therefore" to show us that he is now going to fill out the implications of his denial of salvation by “works”

Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. [Ephesians 2:11-13, NASB]

The writer is clearly now talking about the Jew-Gentile divide, and how the actions of Jesus have brought Jew and Gentile together. Doing the works of Law of Moses, of course, is what demarcates Jew from Gentile in terms of covenant membership and shuts the Gentile out of citizenship in Israel. The writer continues:

14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations [Ephesians 2:14, NASB]

How much more clear could the writer be? What has divided the Jew from the Gentile and been the barrier? Good works? Obviously not, both Jew and Gentile are on “the same side” of any good works barrier (first 20 or so verses of Romans 3). It is doing the works of Law of Moses, of course, that is the very thing that the Jew might otherwise boast in and which is now being declared to not be salvific.

 

[FreeGrace]

We walk in faith when we obey the Voice of God, that produced the faith within us.

The faith that is produced within us, must find it's expression in the action of obedience, for faith the be "alive' and "active", and able to function, otherwise if there is no corresponding action of obedience, faith is dead and dormant, just like a body without the spirit is dead and dormant and function-less.

Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

and again

20 And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. 21 For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” 22 But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour. Matthew 9:20-22

This woman demonstrated the principle of faith by acting upon what she believed, and therefore through the action of her living faith a divine result was produced.

Faith without the work of obedience is dead.

Faith all by itself is dead, unless it has the corresponding action...



Deed is a work.

Words are not classified as a deed or work.

My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 1 John 3:18

Please show us the scripture that teaches us words are work.





Isn't about salvation?

Thank you for showing us the deceitfulness of the OSAS doctrine.

5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.”6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’”(that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Romans 10:5-13


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.JLB

Nothing here about loss of salvation. Why should believe that it could be lost?

 

[FreeGrace]

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:2,6

These were in Him, and removed from being in Him and were placed in the fire and burned.

I explained the figurative speech regarding the branches. I'm sorry it's not clear to you.

But it does not refer to being removed from union with Christ.

The reason it cannot mean that is because of the PROMISE of God regarding the seal of the Holy Spirit:
Eph 1:13,14, - 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Note that there is no condition on this seal, or promise.

2 Cor 1:22 - He anointed us, 22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. Note that this sealing of the Holy Spirit GUARANTEES what is to come, which has already been pointed out: the day of redemption.

There is no way around these verses; the indwelling Holy Spirit is the GUARANTEE that those who have believed are sealed by Him, a deposit GUARANTEEING them for the day of redemption.

To believe that one's salvation can be lost is to reject these words of Scripture and reject the FACT that the Holy Spirit has sealed everyone who has believed FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.

 

[FreeGrace]

Salvation is given to those who Obey the Gospel.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9
JLB

How many commands must one obey in order to be saved then?? Just a few? Many? All of them?? If that's your view, then please explain exactly HOW MANY commands one must obey to be saved. And please provide Scripture to support your view.

The only command of Jesus that is obeyed to be saved is the command to believe that He is who He said He was.

This verse proves that:
John 8:24 - ‘Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

If Heb 5:9 means more than John 8:24, then the Scripture is contradicted internally. God's Word is NEVER contradicted internally.

So, again, please cite Scripture and answer the question of how many of Jesus' commands one must obey in order to be saved.

 

[FreeGrace]

This famous text continues to be misunderstood.

Here is Ephesians 2:8-9 from the NASB:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that (Y)no one may boast.

In verse 9, the writer is denying the salvific power of doing the works of Law of Moses, and not that of the more general category of “good works”.

No evidence has been given to support the claim that "works" refers to the Law of Moses. A claim without Scriptural support is only that.

 

[Drew]

The believer is justified by faith apart from works.
Eph 2:8,9 - 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
This has nothing to do with getting or staying saved.

Further to my previous post. I cannot imagine how one can argue that, given what the author of Ephesians (perhaps Paul, perhaps someone else who shares his overall theology) goes on to write in the verses after this famous text, that the issue here is "good works"; it must be the "works of the Law of Moses" as I believe my post makes clear. It's such an easy case to make, it's almost criminal: what Paul (or whoever) writes by way of qualification in verses 11 and following (see previous post) show that it must be the Law of Moses whose works do not justify. If you deny this, you are basically saying that author thinks like a two-year old; in other words, after denying that "works" save, he immediately explains what he means by making a detailed case about how the works of the Law of Moses function to exclude the Gentile - who does not have the Law of Moses, Jethro's protestations notwithstanding - from the promises of God.

No rational person would do that: the case is clear - it is the Law of Moses whose "works" are being denied as being able to justify. Paul says the same thing in many other places, for example here in Romans 3:

28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. [Romans 3:28-29, NASB]

How is this not a slam dunk? Paul is not talking about "doing good deeds" here, he is talking about doing the works of the Law of Moses.

Ah, but you will protest, the works of the Law of Moses are "good works" so the point remains: Paul is denying that good works can justify.

No.

In Romans 3 Paul provides a lengthy treatment about how Jew and Gentile are in the same boat with respect to the futility of doing good works (without God, of course - this is why Romans 3 is not a counterargument to the notion that we can get eternal life based on "persisting in doing good").

Paul's logic is airtight: It is the works of the Law of Moses that do not save, not because one cannot the good works it prescribes - we clearly can since, in Romans 8, Paul tells us this:

9For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; [Romans 8-29, NASB]

If we are being conformed to Jesus' image, we certainly can do good works.

So if Paul:

1. Denies that the works of the Law of Moses (which only Jews have) justify;
2. Emphasizes that the result of the above is that the Gentile can be justified as well;
3. Believes the Law does not make the Jew any more capable of being good than the Gentile (the argument early in Romans 3), and in so doing rules out the possibility that he is saying to the Jew "even though you do the good works in the Law, such good works do not justify)."

Where does that leave us?

Simply here: When Paul denies "justification by works", he is saying to the Jew that his ethnicity (being born a Jew) does not justify him.

 

[Drew]

No evidence has been given to support the claim that "works" refers to the Law of Moses. A claim without Scriptural support is only that.

What are you talking about man?!

I just provided a painfully detailed argument in post 262! Please do not insult the intelligence of the reader. I know that it is standard practice here for people to ignore arguments whose conclusion they don't like. But please, break that pattern and actually engage the arguments provided in post 262.

 

[Drew]

The reason it cannot mean that is because of the PROMISE of God regarding the seal of the Holy Spirit:
Eph 1:13,14, - 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Note that there is no condition on this seal, or promise.

First of all, I think Romans 11 - the bit about being "cut off" from the tree, has to include the possibility of ultimate loss. But let's talk about this text, above. You seem to think that it establishes OSAS. Well, I think you are stretching the concept of a "guarantee" or a "seal" (same concept, I would suggest). If someone "guarantees" me that I will get something, it really only means that that the person who makes the guarantee will not welch out. However, and this is the key point, the recipient is free to toss aside the very thing that is guaranteed.

I may be guaranteed a seat on the airplane, but if I don't show up.........

 

[dadof10]

1) Of course Abraham's faith prior to Genesis 15:6 NASB solicited God's approval. The mistake you make is thinking that any and all faith in any and all circumstances makes a person righteous. The Bible says he was justified in Genesis 15. You have to add to the Bible to insist that he was justified before that.

On numerous occasions, while discussing James 2, you have made the point that faith that doesn't justify is "dead faith". If the faith that Abraham had in Gen. 12 didn't justify him, it is, by your definition a dead faith. Please answer the following questions:

Is dead faith approved by God?
Is dead faith obedient to God?
Does dead faith trust God?
Does dead faith solicit obedient works?

If the answer is "yes" to these questions what makes it different from faith that justifies?

(And let's not forget the reason why you have to believe that).

, seriously? Me? Sorry, Jethro. I can totally accept your premise, no matter how illogical, and it won't hurt the case against "once for all justification" one bit. Your case, on the other hand, is totally destroyed if you allow yourself to accept the facts of Gen 12 and Abraham. It's not me who has to do all the twisting and turning here. This topic made it's way from the other thread, so here the process of justification is a tangent. There is plenty of other Biblical evidence for the process of justification

For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. (Gal. 5: 5 RSV) Paul doesn't OWN righteousness, but is still hoping for it.

For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified… on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Jesus Christ. (Rom. 2:13, 16 RSV) Actions come BEFORE future justification.

Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience which leads to righteousness? (Rom. 6:16) Obedience LEADS TO righteousness.

So, no. It's not me that HAS to accept this premise to hold my doctrine, but you who HAS to reject it to hold yours.

You keep ignoring examples of faith prior to salvation which demonstrate how one can have faith prior to actually being justified by faith somewhere along the way. My life is a perfect example of that. But more importantly, so is Cornelius'. So if you don't want to listen to me, at least heed his example in scripture.

I'm not ignoring your examples. They are examples of "dead faith" by your definition. When you "got out of bed and went to church", you say that you had faith. OK, but it didn't justify, therefore it was dead, right? So, you have to prove that Abraham's obedient, trusting, God approved, good deeds performing faith, is the same as your dead (by your own definition) faith.

2) That's what faith does. It moves us to obey God if we'll let it. But that hardly means any and all actions of faith mean the person has been declared legally righteous, or is being legally declared righteous by that action (besides the fact that justification is by faith all by itself anyway--Romans 3:24-25 NASB).

What about good deeds and trusting in God? You keep skipping on by "trusting", which is what Abraham did in Gen. 12. What is the only thing that justifies, Jethro? I've read it so many times, I can recite it back almost word for word. "trusting in the Blood of Christ..." So, trusting in God, justifies. Abraham trusted God by faith in Gen.15 when God told him to kill Isaac and that act of trust showed justification. He also trusted God by faith in Gen. 12 when he took off across the desert "not knowing where he was to go", but that act of trust doesn't show justification? Really?

3) Do you have an actual salvation experience? Remember all the faithful, obedient things you did before you actually got saved?

Yes, but I was FAR from trusting in God for forgiveness, as were you. In both our stories, trust is missing. This is, by your definition, what justifies. Abraham had trust in Gen. 12. That's the difference.

4) It wasn't dead in that it did something. But as I'm proving to you, just because faith has actions attached doesn't automatically qualify that faith as able to make a person legally righteous.

So, faith that doesn't justify is alive as long as it produces good deeds? Faith that's alive and producing good deeds sometimes doesn't justify? Really? You've been saying for 2 years that our "works" "show" our true, justifying faith. Now, when I "show" you an example of a person who, by faith did good deeds, trusted in God and had his faith approved by Him, you reject it? Hummm....a'priori, maybe?

You sit in a church full of faithful, obedient people every Sunday--hoards of them probably. Faithful and obedient in that they came to church. Do you think that simply by virtue of them getting out of bed and coming to church that they are made legally righteous in God's sight and are now saved?

Not just because they go to Church. Again, you are taking trust in God out of the equation. Abraham, by faith, trusted in God, which is your definition of justification. His trusting, faith which lead to good deeds was approved by God.

I never said it wasn't. That's not the argument. What I'm resisting is your doctrine that says any and all righteous work makes a person legally righteous before God (besides the fact that it is actually the faith that motivates the work that does that, all by itself). Only believing in God's word about the Promised Son who inherits the blessing on our behalf can do that. You can believe that God exists, and even do righteous things because you do (go to church, give money, etc.), but until you come to that point in your heart that you depend and trust in God's word about the Promised Son you will remain unjustified before God no matter what righteous, even faithful work you do.

Please tell me what, in the above definition, Abraham is lacking. He had trusting faith in the promise, which lead to doing good deeds. Couldn't be more obvious.

 

[LovethroughDove]

We can reject the Holy Spirit that is given to us as believers.

1 Thessalonians 4:7-8 For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.

 

[dadof10]

Paul contrasted faith with works. That says it all. I have no idea what your view of a "work" is, but Paul made it clear enough, which I've already commented on.

Right. And you called works "any type of effort on the believer's part". Please show me where Paul contrasts faith and "any...effort". Please show me where the Bible defines works as "any...effort".

Please answer this: what is "work" for in Scripture? Why should people perform work, however it may be defined?

"Works" primarily means "works of the law", not "any effort on the believer's part". Christians shouldn't perform "works" at all because it's a Jewish thing. If you mean good deeds, we should perform them because God wants us to and because they justify us. Obedient faith saves and unless you can show me where Paul contrasts faith and OBEDIENCE, he doesn't teach anything to the contrary. So when we read verses like "...baptism, which now saves you" and "women are saved through childbearing", we don't have to make up laughable excuses to force it into our "faith alone" theology.

 

[FreeGrace]

What are you talking about man?!

I just provided a painfully detailed argument in post 262! Please do not insult the intelligence of the reader. I know that it is standard practice here for people to ignore arguments whose conclusion they don't like. But please, break that pattern and actually engage the arguments provided in post 262.

Here is what was posted in #262: " That begs the question, since the term “works” is not qualified by the term “good” or anything else that would rule out the possibility that the “works” of the Law of Moses is the subject."

My point was that the word "works" in Eph 2:9 is NOT about the Law of Moses. Seems we're arguing the same point.

So, I have to ask: "what are you talkoing about, man?!"

 

[FreeGrace]

First of all, I think Romans 11 - the bit about being "cut off" from the tree, has to include the possibility of ultimate loss.

No, it cannot, because of the fact that Paul clearly defined "gifts of God" as justification in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 and eternal life in 6:23 before he penned 11:29 which says that the gifts of God are irrevocable. Therefore, eternal life is irrevocable. It's not taken back, nor is there any teaching that one has the power to give it away, as some like to claim.

But let's talk about this text, above. You seem to think that it establishes OSAS. Well, I think you are stretching the concept of a "guarantee" or a "seal" (same concept, I would suggest).

Well, I think that's a rather odd idea. What else would "guarantee" mean? How can a guarantee NOT be a guarantee?

If someone "guarantees" me that I will get something, it really only means that that the person who makes the guarantee will not welch out.

So far, very good!!

However, and this is the key point, the recipient is free to toss aside the very thing that is guaranteed.

Ah, here's the problem. Where does Scripture teach that any believer has any power over his eternal life, which is a gift of God, so that he can "toss it aside".

I may be guaranteed a seat on the airplane, but if I don't show up.........

OK, now you're talking about those who NEVER believed. Sure, those who never believe never receive eternal life.

But we're talking about those who HAVE BELIEVED and HAVE RECEIVED the gift of eternal life. That gift is NOT revocable. And there is no verse that says that we have any power over our salvation or eternal life.

If there were, please share.

 

[FreeGrace]

We can reject the Holy Spirit that is given to us as believers.

1 Thessalonians 4:7-8 For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.

The verse teaches that we are rejecting the Word of God, not His Spirit. When God gives His Spirit, His Spirit actually indwells the believer. We have no power to reverse that or Scripture would teach that.

What believers can do regarding the Holy Spirit is to grieve or quench Him. Eph 5:18 and 1 Thess 5:19

 

[FreeGrace]

Right. And you called works "any type of effort on the believer's part". Please show me where Paul contrasts faith and "any...effort". Please show me where the Bible defines works as "any...effort".

My pleasure: 2 Pet 1:5-8 (NIV) - 5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Then, Peter tells us what happens if we don't add to our faith: 9But if anyone does not have them, he is near sighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

Also, see Heb 4:11, 12:14 and 2 Pet 3:14, all in NIV.
2 Pet 3:14 - So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this,make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him.

"Works" primarily means "works of the law", not "any effort on the believer's part". Christians shouldn't perform "works" at all because it's a Jewish thing.

Please support this with facts from Scripture.

If you mean good deeds, we should perform them because God wants us to and because they justify us.

I sure hope you meant "justify us" in the eyes of others, since we are justified by God through faith. Rom 3 and 4. And the words "works" and "deeds" seem to be interchangeable in the NT. And various translations use either word in the same verses.

Obedient faith saves and unless you can show me where Paul contrasts faith and OBEDIENCE, he doesn't teach anything to the contrary.

Actually, there is such thing as a "disobedient faith", it is faith that saves.

 

[Drew]

Here is what was posted in #262: " That begs the question, since the term “works” is not qualified by the term “good” or anything else that would rule out the possibility that the “works” of the Law of Moses is the subject."

My point was that the word "works" in Eph 2:9 is NOT about the Law of Moses. Seems we're arguing the same point.

So, I have to ask: "what are you talkoing about, man?!"

Let me try to make this painfully clear:

1. You appear to be arguing that, in Ephesians 2:9, Paul is denying that we can be justified by good works;
2. I have provided a detailed exegetical argument - an actual case, not a mere claim - that the "works" in verse 9 are the works of the Law of Moses, not the more general category of "good works"

Now: If you still hold that these "works" in verse 9 are "good works", you need to respond the counterargument to that position that I set forth in post 262.

 

[Drew]

There's nothing hard to understand about the knowledge of the law coming into the world through the nation of the Israelites. That's how you and I learned it--they wrote it down. The problem is you are drawing your own conclusion that means the law is only for natural Isrealites to follow, ignoring the fact that the nation of Israel has always had gentiles in it, and that the law itself tells them they are to follow the same law as the native Israelite, not that they are exempt from it (Exodus 12:47-49 NASB, Numbers 15:15,16,29 NASB). It's impossible to say the law was not for them too. It plainly says that it was.

I have addressed this already - I agreed that those Gentiles who are otherwise integrated into the nation of Israel have to follow the Law. But that's not the point - the point is whether the Law of Moses was intended for Gentiles generally. And the answer is clearly "no" and, again, I think your position is one that almost no scholar holds. Here is one of many texts that quite clearly show that the Gentile is not subject to the dictates of the Law of Moses:

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves... [Romans 2:14, NASB]

What do you think Paul means when he says that the Gentiles do not have the Law?

 

[Drew]

"Works" primarily means "works of the law", not "any effort on the believer's part". Christians shouldn't perform "works" at all because it's a Jewish thing.

Please support this with facts from Scripture.

Please see post 262.

 

[FreeGrace]

Let me try to make this painfully clear:

1. You appear to be arguing that, in Ephesians 2:9, Paul is denying that we can be justified by good works;
2. I have provided a detailed exegetical argument - an actual case, not a mere claim - that the "works" in verse 9 are the works of the Law of Moses, not the more general category of "good works"

Now: If you still hold that these "works" in verse 9 are "good works", you need to respond the counterargument to that position that I set forth in post 262.

We're certainly not on the same page. Here is what you stated in #262: "That begs the question, since the term “works” is not qualified by the term “good” or anything else that would rule out the possibility that the “works” of the Law of Moses is the subject."

That statement sounds to me as though your argument is that the word "works" in Eph 2:9 rules out the possibility that it refers to works of the law.

If that's not the case, then please rephrase the statement.