If you believe you can lose your salvation, you are not saved!(explanation)

[Jethro Bodine]

People, just like the Devil, and demons can believe God raised Jesus Christ from the dead, but refuse to repent and confess Him as Lord.

No. The demons do not trust God for the forgiveness of sins through Christ.

James is hardly saying that the demons trust God and are justified, but do nothing and, therefore, can not be saved because they have no works. He's saying what the demons believe can not save them because they don't have the evidence that would show they have the faith that justifies.

 

[Stan1953]

And also, you should not use a verse from the NT that was written before the CROSS to try to prove you can lose your salvation.

So what was Jesus teaching in Luke 8:11-15 if not salvation?

 

[JLB]

No. The demons do not trust God for the forgiveness of sins through Christ.

James is hardly saying that the demons trust God and are justified, but do nothing and, therefore, can not be saved because they have no works. He's saying what the demons believe can not save them because they don't have the evidence that would show they have the faith that justifies.

Demons believe all by itself, without the work of repenting, just like people who believe that Christ died for their sins, but do not repent, some do not because they have been taught a false Gospel, that teaches them that all they have dont have to repent.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"This is a false argument. What the demons believe isn't "saving faith" at all, but rather, monotheism; that God is One. That is not saving faith."

So you believe that the devil doesn't know Jesus was raised from the dead?

Did you not even read what I said?? James 2:19 isn't about saving faith but believing that God is One, which is called Monotheism.

Is that what you are teaching?

<sigh> Please read what I post before responding.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12


Demons believe Jesus was raised from the dead, however Satan is still their lord.JLB

Sure, satan knows a lot of things; a lot more than either of us combined. But so what?

Saving faith is trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation; something that is not available to satan or his demons.

 

[FreeGrace]

Demons believe all by itself, without the work of repenting, just like people who believe that Christ died for their sins, but do not repent, some do not because they have been taught a false Gospel, that teaches them that all they have dont have to repent.


JLB

Please stop abusing James 2:19. It has nothing to do with believing for salvation. It is only about Monotheism, which the devil believes about God.

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"This is a false argument. What the demons believe isn't "saving faith" at all, but rather, monotheism; that God is One. That is not saving faith."

Did you not even read what I said?? James 2:19 isn't about saving faith but believing that God is One, which is called Monotheism.


<sigh> Please read what I post before responding.


Sure, satan knows a lot of things; a lot more than either of us combined. But so what?

Saving faith is trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation; something that is not available to satan or his demons.

I read what you said.

Did you read what I said ?

You seemed to avoid the truth of what I said and shirt the issue by saying...

"The devil knows a lot of things"

He specifically believes Jesus was crucified and rose from the dead.

Demons believe in Jesus, but still serve Satan.

Their believing all by itself, without the action of repenting, is useless.

People who believe in Jesus, but refuse to repent, which is to say, turn to God in committed trust and obedience, will not be saved either.

The scriptures say repent and believe the Gospel. Mark 1:15

The scriptures say confess with you mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart.... Not just a believing.
Romans 10:9-10

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.
Hebrews 5:9

Eternal salvation is granted to those who obey.

Those who repent are granted the forgiveness of sins.

I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’Acts 26:17-18

The way you receive the forgiveness of sins is to turn to God.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Please stop abusing James 2:19. It has nothing to do with believing for salvation. It is only about Monotheism, which the devil believes about God.

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does itprofit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 8 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! James 2:14-19

The context and point of what James is teaching is about salvation.

James is teaching that unsaved demons believe, and they fear and tremble.

Some people today believe in Jesus, and have heard the Gospel, and they say Jesus is a prophet, while they strap bombs onto kids to blow up their enemies.

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Demons believe all by itself, without the work of repenting, just like people who believe that Christ died for their sins, but do not repent...

No, not just like people who believe that Christ died for their sins. You're making the passage out to mean demons have the same faith as born again Christians, but can't be saved because they don't perform works of righteousness to go along with their trusting faith in Christ. But we know the demons don't trust Jesus for the forgiveness of sin. They do NOT have the same faith as born again Christians.

James is showing that simply reciting Deuteronomy 6:4, as was the custom of the Jews*, and even believing it is not the faith that saves. Even the demons know Deuteronomy 6:4 is true! And know that better than you and I! And they, obviously, aren't saved by knowing that. The faith that saves is the faith that changes a person into someone who fulfills the whole law summed up in the royal law "love your neighbor as yourself', and not the faith that only knows and believes Deuteronomy 6:4 (even the demons believe that!).

Jesus was teaching the same truth here:

"28 One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “What commandment is the foremost of all?” 29 Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; 30 AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.’ 31 “The second is this, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” 32 The scribe said to Him, “Right, Teacher; You have truly stated that HE IS ONE, AND THERE IS NO ONE ELSE BESIDES HIM; 33 AND TO LOVE HIM WITH ALL THE HEART AND WITH ALL THE UNDERSTANDING AND WITH ALL THE STRENGTH, AND TO LOVE ONE’S NEIGHBOR AS HIMSELF, is much more than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 When Jesus saw that he had answered intelligently, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.”" (Mark 12:28-34 NASB capitals in original)


*http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Scripture/Torah/The_Shema/the_shema.html


.

 

[dadof10]

Because it doesn't say he was justified by his faith, or by what he did, there in Genesis 12:4.

Does it SAY anywhere in Scripture that we are "justified by faith all by itself, alone"? No, but you infer it. Does it SAY "works" means "all things done"? No, but you believe it's implied. What about Cornelius? Did he and his household have faith in Christ? The Bible doesn't SAY, but we both believe he did because it's inferred. We all believe many things that are inferred or implied, in fact, I would say that's how we arrive at most doctrinal truth. So why do you hold Abraham's justification process to a higher level of proof than you do other truths?

But it does say that he was justified by his faith in Genesis 15:6. And by the nature of what it means to be justified, it is both unnecessary and impossible to be re-justified, so we know this is not another justification occurring there, but his one and only justification (as in being 'made' righteous, not 'shown' to be righteous which occurs over and over).

Well, I don't accept this premise because this is what we are discussing. My example of Abraham in Gen. 12 is my "proof" that the "nature" of justification is ongoing.

We've already talked about the 'impossible' part of re-justification. We're not in disagreement that it takes a conscious, willing decision to turn your back on the forgiveness of Christ to come to the point where you lose your justification. Hebrews 10:26-31 is not talking about the weak or ignorant believer who stumbles, but who clings tenaciously to the grace of God. That passage is talking about the willful, arrogant rejecter of the grace they have received in Christ. So we don't need to discuss this reason of the two reasons why re-justification can't occur.

OK, as long as you mean that if a justified person apostatizes (makes "a conscious, willing decision to turn your back on the forgiveness of Christ") then he can't (more accurately won't) come back, and that apostasy is the only sin that carries this caveat.

Besides, it would be hard to believe and defend any kind of argument that kind of falling away happened to Abraham between Genesis 12 and Genesis 15, and between Genesis 15 and Genesis 22.

No, it didn't. But Abraham obviously sinned and broke communion with God, so had to be justified again. Disobedience causes us to lose our initial justification, but we can regain it through repentance. He certainly didn't apostatize and harden his heart against God, or he wouldn't be able to repent. That, we agree on.

What we need to talk about is re-justification being unnecessary for the believing, but weak or ignorant believer who fails. This is the reason that Abraham was not being re-justified in Genesis 15. That simply isn't necessary once a person is justified. They remain justified as long as they keep believing (Don't misunderstand, I know full well the disbelieving that strips you of your justification is not what we are talking about here. We are in agreement about this). So this can't be a re-justification occurring in Genesis 15:6.

Again, this is your side of our disagreement. My claim, backed up by the story of Abraham, proves that it is necessary for a person to be re-justified throughout life, and that when we sin, this disobedience doesn't only effect our salvation (which we both believe), but our standing with God, our justification. Where we disagree is that you believe it's only "disbelieving (apostatizing?) that strips you of your justification" and, because of this, it can not be regained. I believe that all disobedience can strip you of your justification but that it depends on the severity of the sins. Because it's sin and not flat out rejection of Christ that "strips us", it can be regained and even strengthened.

Here is more food for thought on Abraham.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report." (Heb. 11:2-3 KJV)

Here, the author groups together all the men he is about to mention as "the elders", and they are all obtaining the same "good report". I don't think this can be denied. Here is verse 3 in the RSV:

"For by it the men of old received divine approval."

They are all obtaining the same "divine approval". Next verse:

"By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh." (Heb. 11:4 KJV)

In the RSV:

"By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he received approval as righteous, God bearing witness by accepting his gifts; he died, but through his faith he is still speaking."

We can infer, that the "good report" or the "divine approval", that ALL "the elders" or "men of old" received, is righteousness. That's what the author means by "divine approval", and all of them "received" it. I don't think this can be denied either.

This is the verse right before "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out..."

"By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith." (Heb 11:8 KJV)

In the RSV:

"By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, took heed and constructed an ark for the saving of his household; by this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness which comes by faith."

Noah is "an heir of righteousness" so righteousness is being passed on, so to speak, through faith to all the "men of old". The next verse talks about Abraham. I think it would be a ridiculous assumption (or inference) to say that Noah was an "heir of righteousness which is by faith" when he "prepared an ark", but Abraham was not when he "went out...". It's the very next verse. I believe all the men and women mentioned in Heb. 11 were justified by faith. That's the point of Heb. 11.

 

[dadof10]

Really? What ELSE would one call it? How about communion? If not a ritual, what else should it be called?

Ritual defined:
a religious or solemn ceremony consisting of a series of actions performed according to a prescribed order

Water baptism saves, that's what Scripture says.

"Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ..." (1Pt. 3:21 RSV)

The question I asked was "Again, could you please show me where water baptism is called merely a "ritual". It is never called "merely a ritual", It's never called "symbolic" either, and it saves.

 

[smaller]

No, it didn't. But Abraham obviously sinned and broke communion with God, so had to be justified again. Disobedience causes us to lose our initial justification, but we can regain it through repentance.

Can't "regain" what we never had of ourselves to begin with. Exactly zero christians are sinless post salvation, therefore disobedience is something we reign over, but continue to engage on a daily basis. Disobedience is never eradicated from the flesh. I might even observe that it is "disobedience" itself that proposes that it is eradicated.

2 Cor. 10:
17 But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
18 For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.

Every person engaged in this conversation seeks to "justify" their entirety, by whatever means. That is impossible. This very factual contrariness remains with every believer, and is not eradicated or "justified" in anyone:

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

There is not one single believer that doesn't have this continuing contrariness. And equally, none stand as "just Spirit."

The best we have is dominance over it, but dominance is not gained by lying about having this contrariness. IN fact believers by the score, fall themselves into lies and hypocrisy, thinking otherwise. I'd say in hope that such falling is temporary, and they lost their dominance by failing to be truthful.

Romans 6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Those who claim that indwelling sin is obedient are bucking theological wind.

 

[dadof10]

No! I never said anything like that. I SAID there is NO SUCH THING as a disobedient faith. There either IS faith, or there isn't faith. The Bible doesn't mention anything about a disobedient faith, nor can anyone demonstrate what that might look like. Please quit twisting my views into such nonsense.

Can a believer (child of God) be disobedient? Of course. Which is why we have Heb 12:5-12.


Why does that bother some so much? Apparently because of a very limited understanding of God's grace. It isn't about us. It's ALL about Him. He paid for ALL of our sins. So getting into heaven isn't about lifestyle, but rather, it is about having eternal life, which is received when one believes in the Savior for it.


Those who don't like God's grace or plan can make up any other plan they'd rather believe in. But it won't be the truth.

Eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) and God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

Are we saved by faith alone, whether we obey or not? If we "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" are we saved? If we disobey after "accepting Him as Lord and Savior" are we saved anyway? So, if you believe the above, we can't lose our salvation through disobedience.

 

[dadof10]

It's a logical fallacy because the Bible never teaches that.

That's not the definition of a logical fallacy.

 

[dadof10]

and this is why we have the old adage, "from the sublime to the ridiculous". Anyone who is willing to follow the Bible will see their error, however anyone who has been inculcated into their dogma, will NOT allow properly exegeted scripture to impact their POV.

And by "properly exegeted scripture" you mean your personal subjective interpretation above all "dogma"?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Does it SAY anywhere in Scripture that we are "justified by faith all by itself, alone"?

(Great. I was just getting ready to practice my t’ai chi out on the lawn and you come back to the discussion. )

Anyway, here is where it says:
" his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works" (Romans 4:5-6 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What about Cornelius? Did he and his household have faith in Christ? The Bible doesn't SAY, but we both believe he did because it's inferred.

They all spoke in tongues. That ability means categorically and without exception that they were justified/saved. And in their story we see that it happened apart from ANY AND ALL work. Even the sacred act of water baptism:

"the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ." (Acts 10:44-48 NASB italics in orig.)

 

[smaller]

There is no greater deception in "christianity" than the bill of goods sold to the masses of participants by every imaginable angle, that they are "entirely" all good in Christ.

This is never the case. For me, personally, it became a "test" for honesty. Who is honest and who is not.

Am I entirely justified in Christ? Uh, no. I did come to understand that the workings of lust, brought about by sin indwelling the flesh can never be justified or blessed by God in Christ. It simply can not happen.

I revel in the fact that honesty has shown me the difference between "myself" as Gods child and the lusts of sin in the flesh.

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Those who propose "eternal security" of the believer, which I myself hold to, should rightfully draw the line here, and understand that we all continue to "have" flesh to contend with. Is that contention, that contrariness then justified and saved? Never! Not in all eternity will this be justified or justifiable or even less, saved.

Those who propose, on the other side of the equations, that we have to behave in order to be entirely justified have the identical issue. Trying to squeeze the "whole" of themselves though the eye of a needle. It just ain't going to happen.

Paul was mindful that he had a "vile body" to contend with, in which lusts dwelt, in his own flesh. The hope of christianity is for a change of that vile body, because of the contrariness therein.

The OSAS dictates never take this into account. Neither do the other side proponents.

Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Everyone, quite entirely vainly, tries to squeeze their vile body, either by works or actions or beliefs that they are "entirely" currently justified, into heaven.

It just ain't a happening deal, period, by any theological formulas.

 

[JLB]

You're making the passage out to mean demons have the same faith as born again Christians,

100% backwards.

I'm saying that people who don't have saving faith, are just like demons who also don't have saving faith, which is the point that James makes.

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

100% backwards.

I'm saying that people who don't have saving faith, are just like demons who also don't have saving faith, which is the point that James makes.

JLB

The point is, you have not correctly defined the faith that does not justify/save. It surely is not the faith that trusts God for the forgiveness of sins.

 

[Stan1953]

And by "properly exegeted scripture" you mean your personal subjective interpretation above all "dogma"?

Nope, I said what I meant, and the word conveys the meaning. Feel free to refute anything I post in like manner.