If you believe you can lose your salvation, you are not saved!(explanation)

[Jethro Bodine]

If we view Paul accurately, we might even see that both eternal security and eternal damnation resides in the same pair of shoes.

Not in these shoes, Mack. I got the blood of Christ washing away the eternal damnation part for me.

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9 NASB)

Don't you?

 

[JLB]

Its always the same battle of words regarding the misunderstanding some have about "Grace through Faith, vs those that feel that you have to add works to faith for it to be effective, based always on the book of Hebrews that was not written to the Body, and of course a misapplication of what James said.

Here is how to understand why a certain person has a fit and a tantrum if you mention "once saved always saved".
First, they dont understand that "born again", cant be undone.
Second, they dont understand that Salvation has 2 parts........the first part is God taking you based on Christ's atonement....and that is the end of the quest to be saved and have eternal life..... As that is ALL HE gave for you to be saved......He created it and manifested it as "grace", as something that is freely given, and cant be earned or kept., as its a "Free GIFT".
BUT THEN, those who dont understand the GOSPEL, confuse it with the " subsequent to " salvation, which is DISCIPLESHIP.
Discipleship is what James is talking about......and GRACE is what Paul is explaining.
James is explaining...."ok, now that you are saved, DO SOMETHING"..
James is saying...."cant you see my FAITH in action?....im doing good works".
But James is NOT SAYING....."im keeping myself saved by doing good works", and THAT is the theological problem regarding so many who have tried to twist what James meant into their gospel twisted version of a works + the Cross situation for Salvation.
So, thank GOD we have Paul, who is THE apostle that Jesus personally gave the revelation of the Grave of God, and not James or any other Apostle....so, when we find ourselves reading some single verse in the whole new testament that seems to indicate a works + Jesus's cross setup for salvation, then we run to the Many LETTERS of Paul so that we dont lose the correct understanding of how we are saved, who saved us, and what keeps us saved.

You don't seem to understand that we are in covenant with Christ.

It's called the New Covenant.

A covenant has stipulations.

Repent: which means turn to God in submission to Him and becoming a part of His kingdom, is how we will receive forgiveness of our past sins.

Our lord that we served before we repented was Satan.

Here are the words of Jesus Christ, as spoken to Paul -

I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you,
18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.' Acts 26:17-18

When a person who hears the Gospel and turns from Satan to Jesus Christ, and confesses Jesus Christ as Lord, then later, under persecution and the threat of death, they back away from Him, then they no longer believe, for they now longer obey the command to repent.

Those who disobey this holy command to repent, are called hypocrites, because they turn back, or return to Satan as being their lord.

Peter says it this way -

For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,”fn and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 peter 2:20-22


...it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.


People that believe for a while and turn away from God are no longer saved, as they no longer believe.


12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Believe = saved

Believe for awhile = saved for a while.


JLB

 

[Stan1953]

Actually, post 484 is my post. Drew's post was 478 from which I made my comments.
ps: I don't know how to "link" anyone's posts. I just click the "post reply" button and respond to their comments.

Yes I know, but you eliminated the QUOTE= and /QUOTE tags so it won't show the post. You have to make sure every point you comment on has the same tags as the first part of that post did. You just C & P those opening tags and make sure each part ends with /Quote between the left [ and right ] brackets.
Or you can makes all your comments after the /Quote and keep them in the same order as the OP.

 

[JLB]

works are the expected and obligatory evidence that must accompany justifying faith in order for a person to be saved on the Day of Wrath.

There is the work of obedience to the Gospel command repent, that is the only way a person will receive the forgiveness of sins.

"The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."
Mark 1:15

Not just believe only, but repent and believe. Repent is the command of the Gospel that is to be obeyed, for a person to receive the forgiveness of sins.

You can believe the Gospel all day long, but if you don't obey the Gospel, and repent and you continue to serve Satan, then you will not receive the forgiveness of sins.

I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you,
18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.' Acts 26:17-18


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There is the work of obedience to the Gospel command repent, that is the only way a person will receive the forgiveness of sins.

"The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."
Mark 1:15

Not just believe only, but repent and believe. Repent is the command of the Gospel that is to be obeyed, for a person to receive the forgiveness of sins.

You can believe the Gospel all day long, but if you don't obey the Gospel, and repent and you continue to serve Satan, then you will not receive the forgiveness of sins.

I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you,
18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.' Acts 26:17-18


JLB

What you did not get from Acts 26:20 is believing IS repenting. After that we are then to have deeds in line with that repenting.

 

[Stan1953]

What you did not get from Acts 26:20 is believing IS repenting. After that we are then to have deeds in line with that repenting.

it's not that we ARE to have, but if our confession is real and effective, we WILL have.

 

[smaller]

Not in these shoes, Mack. I got the blood of Christ washing away the eternal damnation part for me.

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9 NASB)

Don't you?

I try to be honest to the pattern set forth by Paul.

If we recognize our struggle, that it is not with ourselves as Gods children, perhaps we would also perceive the source of difficulties and perhaps more importantly, whom it is we are to overcome.

I'll not be promoting the salvation of the tempter in anyone. That starts with me.

Revelation 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

it's not that we ARE to have, but if our confession is real and effective, we WILL have.

Generally speaking, I agree. But the Bible does talk about those who really were forgiven/sanctified/etc. but who then trample on that forgiveness and who go back to their former lives. And who, as a result, lose the free gift of that forgiveness, sanctification, etc. (Hebrews 10:26-31, Matthew 18:23-35).

Repentant lives seem to dictate more one's appreciation for, and perseverance in the grace of God's redemption than just simply having received it. But don't get me wrong, I believe firmly in the power of God's grace to cause good works to flow in a person's life without being reminded to do so.

The automatic flow of good works in the believer, caused by God's love in us, seems to be the mature expression of the grace of God we have received (1 John 4:18 NASB). In that passage, John is talking about obedience being fueled by a mature knowing and growing up into God's love, versus obedience as the result of a fear of punishment.

 

[Drew]

Hmmm? smaller scratches head, wondering for about a 1/2 a second if Paul was still a sinner, post salvation, along with everyone else on the planet? And the winner is, Paul's fact in 1 Tim. 1:15.

Strawman. I never said people post-belief do not sin. I cannot believe you can accept that you, or more generally the believer, is in this condition:

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. [Romans 7:23, NASB]

This cannot be a believer: Is the believer captive to sin? I thought we were new creations. If the new creature is in the position of being hopelessly enslaved to sin - as the man in Romans 7 clearly is - I would hate to see what the old creature was like!

In your extremely unusual theology, he is - you split the human being up into the this odd mix of a hopelessly sinning "flesh" and a "saved" spirit.

Not Biblical: Paul is crystal clear that while the believer is not perfect, he is most certainly not "captive to sin" - is in the process of being transformed into the image of Jesus:

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. [Romans 8:29, NASB]

How can a person who is being conformed to the image of Jesus be hopelessly enslaved to sin?

I thought Jesus sets us free from this condition. And Paul thinks so too:

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. [Romans 7:24-25a]

 

[JLB]

What you did not get from Acts 26:20 is believing IS repenting. After that we are then to have deeds in line with that repenting.

No sorry brother, you can no longer deny the truth of the scriptures.

The word of Jesus says repent AND believe. Mark 1:15

Paul taught the same Gospel

...if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10

...confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart

It's by the obedience part of the Gospel that salvation is obtained.

...with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

A person is justified by faith in Jesus Christ.

Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.Galatians 3:24

As long as we continue in the faith, and we continue to believe, we will continue to be justified.

While this continues to be your mantra, there is no Biblical evidence for "continued belief".

strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.” Acts 14:22

if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:23

Isn't it interesting that in these verses one is encouraged to continue in the faith, yet there is NO WARNING of loss of salvation.

If you can show from the scriptures some other way to be justified, other than faith in Christ, then please post these scriptures now.

Just like salvation, justification is a gift given when one believes. Therefore, as gifts of God, which are irrevocable, your entire premise is false.

A gift isn't given on a continual basis. That isn't even reasonable. A gift is given in a moment of time.

Just because you don't understand how we are justified by faith, or you don't agree, makes no difference.

I'm not the one who isn't understanding Scripture.

If you don't actually post a scripture, that shows us some other way to be justified, rather than by faith, I will conclude you agree with this statement - You are justified by faith, and as long as you continue in faith, you will continue to be justified.JLB

What you've failed to prove, or even support, is the claim that either salvation or justification is dependent upon continuing faith.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes I know, but you eliminated the QUOTE= and /QUOTE tags so it won't show the post. You have to make sure every point you comment on has the same tags as the first part of that post did. You just C & P those opening tags and make sure each part ends with /Quote between the left [ and right ] brackets.
Or you can makes all your comments after the /Quote and keep them in the same order as the OP.

I know how to use the quote and /quote with brackets, but I don't know how to 'C&P' the opening tags to a statement or quote within the post. That's why I only C&P them.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's by the obedience part of the Gospel that salvation is obtained.

...with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

But it is by believing, all by itself, that a person is justified. Doing things because you have been justified only shows you really did believe and were justified, and that you still believe. And it is upon that continuing outward evidence of faith and acceptance and perseverance in Christ's forgiveness (your works) that Christ saves you and will welcome you into the kingdom at the end of the age (Matthew 25:31-46 NASB).

 

[Stan1953]

Generally speaking, I agree. But the Bible does talk about those who really were forgiven/sanctified/etc. but who then trample on that forgiveness and who go back to their former lives. And who, as a result, lose the free gift of that forgiveness, sanctification, etc. (Hebrews 10:26-31, Matthew 18:23-35).

Repentant lives seem to dictate more one's appreciation for, and perseverance in the grace of God's redemption than just simply having received it. But don't get me wrong, I believe firmly in the power of God's grace to cause good works to flow in a person's life without being reminded to do so.

The automatic flow of good works in the believer, caused by God's love in us, seems to be the mature expression of the grace of God we have received (1 John 4:18 NASB). In that passage, John is talking about obedience being fueled by a mature knowing and growing up into God's love, versus obedience as the result of a fear of punishment.

Exactly, and when we REALLY commit to Jesus as our Saviour, it leads to allegiance, which grows the more we obey Him, or shrinks the more we don't. Heb 10:38-39. Sadly there are still many legalists among believers today, just as there were among the Jews with the Pharisees.

 

[JLB]

But it is by believing, all by itself, that a person is justified. Doing things because you have been justified only shows you really did believe and were justified,

People, just like the Devil, and demons can believe God raised Jesus Christ from the dead, but refuse to repent and confess Him as Lord.

Even the demons believe—and tremble! James 2:19

This believing "all by itself", if it doesn't have the corresponding action of repenting by confessing Jesus as Lord is useless and can not save, because it not not obtain the forgiveness of sins.

Abraham had repented when he turned away from his fathers house and chose to follow the Lord, as he went out no knowing by faith...
Leaving for us an example of those would walk in the obedience of faith.

As it is written -

And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying,“In you all the nations shall be blessed.”
Galatians 3:8


JLB

 

[Kidron]

It's the same as saying if you plan on being saved because you're swimming in the water, you have to be wet when the day of salvation comes to prove it.

If you are washed in the blood, you dont have to worry about your works on the day of wrath, the judgement seat of Christ, or any other day, regarding losing your salvation.
And also, you should not use a verse from the NT that was written before the CROSS to try to prove you can lose your salvation.

Its odd about you, in that you actually do believe you can lose your salvation, tho you will sometimes write very effectively that you dont believe you can lose it.
But, you have again just written your idea of HOW to lose your salvation.
You people always find a way to try to lose it, even tho it cant be done.

 

[smaller]

Strawman. I never said people post-belief do not sin. I cannot believe you can accept that you, or more generally the believer, is in this condition:

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. [Romans 7:23, NASB]

Your claim appeared to be that Romans 7 was not Paul speaking about the facts of his own sin i.e. that he was no longer a sinner, post salvation, which is not credible. 1 Tim. 1:15 is Paul himself, stating that "I am" the chief of sinners, and this of course, post salvation.

This cannot be a believer: Is the believer captive to sin? I thought we were new creations. If the new creature is in the position of being hopelessly enslaved to sin - as the man in Romans 7 clearly is - I would hate to see what the old creature was like!

It has nothing to do with captivity. Paul obviously was viewing the matters of sin factually. He didn't say he was being ruled over by sin, but explaining "how" sin works (in adverse reactions internally when exposed to law, Romans 7:7-13) which resulted in him doing evil and having evil present with him, as a direct result of sin indwelling him. Romans 7:17-21. This, all post salvation.

In your extremely unusual theology, he is - you split the human being up into the this odd mix of a hopelessly sinning "flesh" and a "saved" spirit.

I don't buy your spin of what Paul says. What Paul says is what I believe. Paul didn't "split" anyone in 2. He clearly differentiated between people and devils no differently than Jesus did.

 

[FreeGrace]

People, just like the Devil, and demons can believe God raised Jesus Christ from the dead, but refuse to repent and confess Him as Lord.

Even the demons believe—and tremble! James 2:19

This believing "all by itself", if it doesn't have the corresponding action of repenting by confessing Jesus as Lord is useless and can not save, because it not not obtain the forgiveness of sins.

This is a false argument. What the demons believe isn't "saving faith" at all, but rather, monotheism; that God is One. That is not saving faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

you should not use a verse from the NT that was written before the CROSS to try to prove you can lose your salvation.

I don't. I use this one primarily:

Hebrews 10:26-31 NASB
"For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

you will sometimes write very effectively that you dont believe you can lose it.

No. You just hear it that way. Indoctrinations cause us to hear what we want to hear.

You people always find a way to try to lose it, even tho it cant be done.

Justification is conditioned on believing in God's promise of forgiveness through Christ. When you cease to meet that condition--that is, you stop believing--you cease to have that which faith secures.

 

[JLB]

This is a false argument. What the demons believe isn't "saving faith" at all, but rather, monotheism; that God is One. That is not saving faith.

So you believe that the devil doesn't know Jesus was raised from the dead?

Is that what you are teaching?

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12


Demons believe Jesus was raised from the dead, however Satan is still their lord.


JLB