If you believe you can lose your salvation, you are not saved!(explanation)

[Drew]

Apparently you've either misread or haven't yet read Eph 2:15, so here it is: 5by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,

Now, what does "abolishing" mean?
What does "enmity" mean?

v.15 refutes your notion.

One the contrary, this verse strongly support my position. It is the Law of Moses that has been abolished. And since that Law was the means by which the Jew saw himself as distinct from the Gentile, that Law was clearly a source of enmity. Remember, the Law basically tells the Jew that the foods that Gentile eat make the Jew unclean. And here in Leviticus 20, we have God telling the Jew that the Law marks out the Jew as "set apart" from the Gentile. How could such a Law not engender enmity between Gentile and Jew?

You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean. 26Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine. [Lev. 20:25-26, NASB]

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Here is what I mean by "no context": the word "works" in v.9 isn't preceded by ANY mention of "the works of the Law of Moses" in either ch 1 or 2. So, by no context, there is NO REASON to think that Paul wa referring to "the works of the Law of Moses" by his use of "works" in v.9. I've already explained this."

That's like arguing that, in the following, the author is not talking racist attitudes in particular because there is no "context" before he used the term "attitude":

You all need to have the right king of attitude. Therefore, do not refuse to let blacks on the bus, and allow them to go the good schools. Do not treat whites better than blacks. Remember, we are all one human family and treating people differently based on race has no place in such a society.

One is free to take my explanation any way they want, but in fact, there is NO CONTEXT for "works of the law of Moses" in v.9 since Paul NEVER mentions the works of the law of Moses until v.15, and then he notes that Christ ABOLISHED the works of the law. So there is NO WAY anyone can be justified by the works of the law of Moses.

I cannot imagine your response to the above: In this example, I have clearly shown that even in the absence of an established context, the term "attitude" must be a reference to racial attitudes in particular. And it would not matter in the slightest that, in any material leading up to this block of statement, there was no particular mention of the issue of race at all.

I'm trying to make this as simple and easy to understand as I can. Neither "good works" OR works of the law of Moses will justify. Because v.15 refutes your notion.

Based on what Paul writes in verses 11 and following, it is clear that his argument is that the Jew is not saved by doing the works of the Law of Moses.

Exactly my point. What in the world has your argument been?

 

[Stan1953]

Well, no, you're right. It's not in their SOF. But I've heard many a preacher from many a denomination say pretty close to the exact words I posted. The problem is that most don't follow their beliefs to their logical conclusion, which end in "disobedient faith saves". Certainly my extreme, exaggerated example above would be one of those "never saved in the first place" excuses to MOST denominations, but if asked about common, run of the mill, every day sins, they would say they can't keep you fron Heaven. Some actually embrace disobedience, even though it's not written down anywhere.

and this is why we have the old adage, "from the sublime to the ridiculous". Anyone who is willing to follow the Bible will see their error, however anyone who has been inculcated into their dogma, will NOT allow properly exegeted scripture to impact their POV.

 

[Stan1953]

Amen. Well said Stan.
It is also good to distinguish between "good works" and the "work of obedience" which the scripture calls the obedience of faith.
JLB

Thanks, and this is exactly what I meant. James was NOT contradicting the doctrine of faith, but of unproductive faith, or similar to what many who claim OSAS practice today. Just another example of the slippery slope of RT.

 

[FreeGrace]

There are many reasons to conclude that Romans 7 cannot be about Paul the believer. I will get to the "tense" issue later, but for now I will post more material from Romans 7:

but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! [Romans 7:23-24a]

As a Christian, how you be a prisoner to sin.

"how you be" one is easy. Grieve the Holy Spirit (Eph 5:18) or quench the Spirit (1 Thess5:19) is how you be.

Paul established WAY BACK in ch 6 that we make decisions (choices) of who we (belivers) present themselves to a slaves for obedience: either wickedness or righteousness. v.11-16

I could wear out the keypad on my computer posting texts that show that the believer has been set free from such bondage.

This is quite naive. Please read Rom 6:11-16 and prove that Paul wasn't telling us believers that there is a choice of who we present ourselves to for obedience.

In fact, right here in that Ephesians text, we see that believers are not imprisoned in this way:

10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. [Ephesians 2:10, NASB]

This verse tells us what we were created FOR; good works. It says NOTHING about being either imprisoned or set free.

Now: please explain how a person who is a "prisoner" to a law of sin can possibly do good works.

That's Paul's point exactly in Rom 6. The believer CANNOT.

btw, Eph 2:10 does NOT guarantee that the believer will perform good works. It says that's what we were created for.

And also consider this from Romans 8:

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, [Romans 8:29a, NASB]

No one this side of eternity will achieve this completely, because we still have a sin nature and we still sin. But this will be fulfilled fully in the resurrecton.

If Romans 7 is indeed about Paul the believer, then you need to explain to us how a man who is in the process of being conformed to the image of Jesus, is "a prisoner of the law of sin".

That's the point: when one IS in the process of being conformed, he won't be a prisoner. But not all believers participate in being conformed to the image of Jesus.

Recall what Paul said to the Galatian believers: 4:19 - My children, with whom I am again in labor until Christ is formed in you—

Now, why did he write that? He explains in v.20-21:
20but I could wish to be present with you now and to change my tone, for I am perplexed about you. 21Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law?

He was perplexed (confused) about them because they were turning back to the law. Recall 1:6 where he wrote this:
"I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel"

So, it's clear that not all believers participate in conforming to the image of Jesus.

 

[FreeGrace]

Much of Romans 7 is indeed in the past tense:

8But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; [Romans 7:8-9, NASB]

But, as you say, some of it is in the present tense and I can understand why you would think that Paul is talking about himself as a believer. But if you do that, you are in the position of having to deal with the difficult questions from my last post. I have an explanation for the "present tense" stuff, but that will have to wait.

I answered all your so-called difficult questions, easily.

What IS in the present tense is why your claim is in error.

 

[Stan1953]

I believe Drew said in post 484, "I could wear out the keypad on my computer posting texts that show that the believer has been set free from such bondage."
I couldn't find the original post as FreeGrace left out the link to it, but in response to it, one verse. Heb 12:1 (NIV) shows some ARE in bondage to some sin.

 

[FreeGrace]

I believe Drew said in post 484, "I could wear out the keypad on my computer posting texts that show that the believer has been set free from such bondage."
I couldn't find the original post as FreeGrace left out the link to it, but in response to it, one verse. Heb 12:1 (NIV) shows some ARE in bondage to some sin.

Actually, post 484 is my post. Drew's post was 478 from which I made my comments.

ps: I don't know how to "link" anyone's posts. I just click the "post reply" button and respond to their comments.

 

[JLB]

Doesn't need to be.


Specifically in believing His promise of eternal life through faith in His Son.


What verse says this?


What verse says this?


Uh, it begins with "by faith". Faith that Noah ALREADY had, even before God warned of things not yet seen.

Try agan.


This 'example' doesn't even mention faith.

Try again.


Try again.

Ok here it is again.

The word obey or the description of obedience is not mentioned in your "explanation", so therefore your explanation is invalid.

The obedience of faith is obeying God.

God speaks to a person which produces faith in them.

The person responds with the corresponding action of obedience which produces a divine result.

Here is an example from the scriptures.

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7

God told Noah to build the Ark because He was going to flood the earth with water.

Noah moved with godly fear and built the Ark and saved his family.

This is an example of the obedience of faith.


JLB

 

[JLB]

This is kind of vague. How, specifically, does one "turn away from Satan, his power, and kingdom"?

Sorry you feel that the Gospel of the kingdom is vague.

Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.

Those who obey the Gospel will be given eternal salvation.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
Hebrews 5:9


JLB

 

[smaller]

Romans 7 is about "Paul before conversion", not after. We have been through this many time before but, for the sake of others, please note this from the end of Romans 7:

24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!
[Romans 7:24-25a, NASB]

The Paul in Romans 7 is clearly a "pre-conversion" Paul precisely because this text shows this to be the case: Paul looks back to what he was like and then declares that Jesus will indeed set him free.

Hmmm? smaller scratches head, wondering for about a 1/2 a second if Paul was still a sinner, post salvation, along with everyone else on the planet? And the winner is, Paul's fact in 1 Tim. 1:15.

You have Paul the Christian in the position of not being "set free from this body of death".

How you explain that?

Making blanket proposals in theology doesn't work. We already know before we start, the scriptural fact that we'll run into with sin, that being it's of the devil. Zero of the engagers in this conversation have that party on the table in these subjects. Wonder why? Hmmmm?

Theology is a very interesting subject when it starts to view the "other" parties. Only one of the parties below were saved, and it's not the one in bold.

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

As it pertains to this particular conversation, all believers are saved. The messengers of Satan who muddle the conversation, aren't. Pretty simple in my sight.

As to works, no amounts of works will save the messenger of Satan. As to doubts that some have, they should doubt. Because salvation is not just a question of themselves or of just ourselves. There is no free standing individual in the flesh. We all bear, in our own flesh, that party which will assuredly land in hell, at the finale of this wicked age.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"This is kind of vague. How, specifically, does one "turn away from Satan, his power, and kingdom"?"

Sorry you feel that the Gospel of the kingdom is vague.

Yes, one should be sorry for so completely misunderstanding what another posts. I said nothing about the gospel of the kingdom being vague. It was your claim that was vague, which was clearly communicated in my question.

So, again, how does one turn away from satan, his power and kingdom? Specifically.

Maybe the question is too tough to specify. I'm just trying to understand your claim, since this was claimed in your post #455:
"Repent is the Gospel command that is to be obeyed for a person to receive the forgiveness of their sins. Repent means to turn to God and His power (authority) and kingdom, by turning away from Satan, and from his power and his kingdom."

If one must "turn away from satan, his power, and kingdom" to be saved (your definition of 'repent'), then please specify what that actually means. To me, the statement is just vague. And please include Scripture to support your explanation.

Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.
Those who obey the Gospel will be given eternal salvation.
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
Hebrews 5:9JLB

I hope there will be a clarification of your vagueness so that I can understand how one gets saved in your system.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As I showed above, Abraham didn't have a "trusting faith" and he doubted God could fulfill His promise in Gen. 17. Could this be why God "tested Abraham" by telling him to sacrifice Isaac? He doubted, God delivered anyway, and now God was "testing" Abraham to see if NOW he would trust.

I don't see how this can be true since Paul tells us that Abraham, "19 Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform." (Romans 4:19-21 NASB bold mine).

Would he kill his son, trusting that God would give him another?

No, not give him another son, but raise Isaac himself back up from the dead:

"He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead" (Hebrews 11:19 NASB italics in original)

This is why James says that Abraham was justified "when he offered his son, Isaac". He showed by his actions a trusting faith, capable of justification.

Yes! He was SHOWING by his actions that he already possessed a declaration of righteousness--the legal declaration of righteousness (justification) that he got way back in Genesis 15:6. This is exactly what keeps Paul and James out of contradiction of each other:

"the man to whom God credits righteousness (justifies) apart from works" (Romans 4:6 NASB)

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." (James 2:24 NASB)

Paul is teaching us how Abraham was made righteous--through his faith, alone, apart from what he did. James is teaching us how Abraham was shown to have that righteousness--through what he did in conjunction with that faith. 'Justified', like lots of other words, has at least two different definitions. It means to both, to be made righteous, and to be shown to be righteous. Context shows us which definition Paul is using, and which definition James is using. To insist that they are both using the exact same definition of the word 'justified' puts them in direct contradiction with each other. Which then forces us to create erroneous doctrines to try to remove the contradiction.

The important point for this discussion is what James says, particularly. We are deceived if we think we can have a faith that can not show itself in what we do. Genuine justifying faith in Christ changes a person. No change means you were either never made righteous by faith in the first place, or you walked away from it in contempt or carelessness along the way somewhere (Hebrews 10:26-31 NASB). So it is absolutely essential that a person be justified by, both, faith AND works to be saved on the Day of Wrath. Not because works have power to somehow make us righteous, but because works show us as have been made righteous by faith (all by itself) in the forgiveness of God.

 

[JLB]

From Post # 474


JLB said -

Hebrews 11:7
God told Noah to build the Ark because He was going to flood the earth with water.
Noah moved with godly fear and built the Ark and saved his family.

This 'example' doesn't even mention faith.

Try again..

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7



Here is my statement again -

God speaks to a person which produces faith in them.
[Faith comes by hearing the word of God. Romans 10:17]

The person responds with the corresponding action of obedience which produces a divine result.
[Faith all by itself is dead. James 1:17]

Here is an example from the scriptures.

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7

God told Noah to build the Ark because He was going to flood the earth with water.

Noah moved with godly fear and built the Ark and saved his family.

This is an example of the obedience of faith.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Since that verse doesn't support your claim, what verse or verses actually support your claim that it is necessary to "continue to be justified".

A person is justified by faith in Jesus Christ.

Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.Galatians 3:24

As long as we continue in the faith, and we continue to believe, we will continue to be justified.

strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.” Acts 14:22

if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:23


If you can show from the scriptures some other way to be justified, other than faith in Christ, then please post these scriptures now.

Just because you don't understand how we are justified by faith, or you don't agree, makes no difference.

If you don't actually post a scripture, that shows us some other way to be justified, rather than by faith, I will conclude you agree with this statement - You are justified by faith, and as long as you continue in faith, you will continue to be justified.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Yes! He was SHOWING by his actions that he already possessed a declaration of righteousness--the legal declaration of righteousness (justification) that he got way back in Genesis 15:6. This is exactly what keeps Paul and James out of contradiction of each other:

Abraham walked in the righteousness of faith before Genesis 15...
Abraham continued in the righteousness of faith from when he first believed God by getting out and going to the land God showed him, by faith, the righteousness of faith that comes by obedience to God.

Just like Able and Noah before him, Abraham walked in the righteousness of faith.

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8


JLB

 

[Kidron]

Its always the same battle of words regarding the misunderstanding some have about "Grace through Faith, vs those that feel that you have to add works to faith for it to be effective, based always on the book of Hebrews that was not written to the Body, and of course a misapplication of what James said.

Here is how to understand why a certain person has a fit and a tantrum if you mention "once saved always saved".
First, they dont understand that "born again", cant be undone.
Second, they dont understand that Salvation has 2 parts........the first part is God taking you based on Christ's atonement....and that is the end of the quest to be saved and have eternal life..... As that is ALL HE gave for you to be saved......He created it and manifested it as "grace", as something that is freely given, and cant be earned or kept., as its a "Free GIFT".
BUT THEN, those who dont understand the GOSPEL, confuse it with the " subsequent to " salvation, which is DISCIPLESHIP.
Discipleship is what James is talking about......and GRACE is what Paul is explaining.
James is explaining...."ok, now that you are saved, DO SOMETHING"..
James is saying...."cant you see my FAITH in action?....im doing good works".
But James is NOT SAYING....."im keeping myself saved by doing good works", and THAT is the theological problem regarding so many who have tried to twist what James meant into their gospel twisted version of a works + the Cross situation for Salvation.
So, thank GOD we have Paul, who is THE apostle that Jesus personally gave the revelation of the Grave of God, and not James or any other Apostle....so, when we find ourselves reading some single verse in the whole new testament that seems to indicate a works + Jesus's cross setup for salvation, then we run to the Many LETTERS of Paul so that we dont lose the correct understanding of how we are saved, who saved us, and what keeps us saved.

 

[smaller]

Its always the same battle of words regarding the misunderstanding some have about "Grace through Faith, vs those that feel that you have to add works to faith for it to be effective, based always on the book of Hebrews that was not written to the Body, and of course a misapplication of what James said.

Here is how to understand why a certain person has a fit and a tantrum if you mention "once saved always saved".
First, they dont understand that "born again", cant be undone.
Second, they dont understand that Salvation has 2 parts........the first part is God taking you based on Christ's atonement....and that is the end of the quest to be saved and have eternal life..... As that is ALL HE gave for you to be saved......He created it and manifested it as "grace", as something that is freely given, and cant be earned or kept., as its a "Free GIFT".
BUT THEN, those who dont understand the GOSPEL, confuse it with the " subsequent to " salvation, which is DISCIPLESHIP.
Discipleship is what James is talking about......and GRACE is what Paul is explaining.
James is explaining...."ok, now that you are saved, DO SOMETHING"..
James is saying...."cant you see my FAITH in action?....im doing good works".
But James is NOT SAYING....."im keeping myself saved by doing good works", and THAT is the theological problem regarding so many who have tried to twist what James meant into their gospel twisted version of a works + the Cross situation for Salvation.
So, thank GOD we have Paul, who is THE apostle that Jesus personally gave the revelation of the Grave of God, and not James or any other Apostle....so, when we find ourselves reading some single verse in the whole new testament that seems to indicate a works + Jesus's cross setup for salvation, then we run to the Many LETTERS of Paul so that we dont lose the correct understanding of how we are saved, who saved us, and what keeps us saved.

We unfortunately in these kinds of conversations, tend to lean to one sided arguments.

I've given this example many times. Paul did extend Grace and Mercy, fully, unswerving, securely, to everyone that has called upon Jesus to save them. That part is a done deal.

but, when we view Paul's own depiction of himself, we might not find Paul extending any Grace or Mercy to this party, and we are advised to resist same, even in our own flesh:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

If we view Paul accurately, we might even see that both eternal security and eternal damnation resides in the same pair of shoes.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Its always the same battle of words regarding the misunderstanding some have about "Grace through Faith, vs those that feel that you have to add works to faith for it to be effective

Effective for what?
That's the important point. If you mean not effective toward 'justification' you're absolutely correct. If you mean not effective toward 'salvation' you are in terrible error.

Here is how to understand why a certain person has a fit and a tantrum if you mention "once saved always saved".
First, they dont understand that "born again", cant be undone.

The punishment being spoken about here is the punishment of the enemies of God, not the loving chastisement of the children of God:

"How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:29 NASB bold mine)

Clear as day: People once sanctified by the blood of Christ suffering the damnation of the enemies of God because they treated the blood THAT SANCTIFIED THEM with contempt.

Second, they dont understand that Salvation has 2 parts........the first part is God taking you based on Christ's atonement....and that is the end of the quest to be saved and have eternal life..... As that is ALL HE gave for you to be saved......He created it and manifested it as "grace", as something that is freely given, and cant be earned or kept., as its a "Free GIFT".

Just because it is a free gift doesn't mean a person can't have it taken back. In fact, this is a kingdom principle taught in Matthew 18:23-35.

BUT THEN, those who dont understand the GOSPEL, confuse it with the " subsequent to " salvation, which is DISCIPLESHIP.
Discipleship is what James is talking about.....

Correct. But to not grow up into a disciple of Christ and think it doesn't matter toward the Day of Judgment is to not know what the scriptures say about that. The bottom line is, the person who never grows up into Christ, or stops growing up into Christ and goes backwards has lost the agent through which we do that growing up--the Holy Spirit. He has lost the justification through Christ he once had through a contempt or carelessness for the forgiveness he received as spoken about in Hebrews 10:26-31 NASB.

James is explaining...."ok, now that you are saved, DO SOMETHING"..
James is saying...."cant you see my FAITH in action?....im doing good works".

Correct. But the implication being ignored by OSAS being you can't be saved on the Day of Wrath without the evidence of saving faith. That kind of faith--a dead faith--can not save (James 2:14). And we know James is talking about salvation itself because Jesus himself explains this same truth in Matthew 25:31-46. Christ will use our works as the evidence of our faith in, and love for, him. No works--no salvation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But James is NOT SAYING....."im keeping myself saved by doing good works", and THAT is the theological problem regarding so many who have tried to twist what James meant into their gospel twisted version of a works + the Cross situation for Salvation.

It's only twisted if one makes the works produced by faith, along with faith, the agent through which one is justified (MADE righteous). But what it actually is, works are the expected and obligatory evidence that must accompany justifying faith in order for a person to be saved on the Day of Wrath. It's the same as saying if you plan on being saved because you're swimming in the water, you have to be wet when the day of salvation comes to prove it.

Faith in the forgiveness of God justifies all by itself apart from works (Romans 4:6).

Salvation is by the perseverance of that faith as demonstrated in what that faith does (Matthew 24:13-14). No perseverance of faith means a continuing justification before God in heaven through the ministry of Christ to keep us righteous and eligible for the kingdom ended somewhere along the line.