If you believe you can lose your salvation, you are not saved!(explanation)

[llama]

If we had to pay anything on our own for our sins, plus Jesus' finished work on the cross, the bible would be clear, and contain 100s of verses on WHAT exact WORK gets us into heaven like feeding the homeless, but instead, it has 100s of verses that salvation is by grace through faith! The bible is very clear on everything, and if works were needed to be saved, 1st peter 2:2 says that we are "As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:". Can a babe run a marathon? Or be on the show called "world's strongest man and pull a 747 boeing?" The bible doesn't promise you salvation if you put your trust in Jesus 90% and yourself 10% to get you to heaven. If you trust Jesus 90% for salvation and 10% your good works, in reality, you are only taking a 90% chance on Jesus, and are saying I don't fully trust you, partial trust is no trust at all. Does john 3 16 say whosoever partially believes in the Son of God? John 3:16, For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[Drew]

If we had to pay anything on our own for our sins, plus Jesus' finished work on the cross, the bible would be clear,....

How much clearer could the Bible be?:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]

If someone were asked to write a simple, clear, direct expression of the belief that eternal life is granted based on how we actually live - what we "do" - it would almost not be possible than to be more clear than this statement by Paul.

So what do you think Paul means here, if you deny that "good works" are not the basis for the awarding of eternal life?

 

[Christ_empowered]

Perseverance of the saints. If you "run the race" and "fight the good fight" then you're truly saved. If not...you were a false conversion.

 

[llama]

Also lets take a look at the worst sinner in the early church, this guy goes to commit open fornication, and is thrown out of the church, so that the devil gets him, and kills him I suppose, lets see if he lost his salvation:
1 Corinthians 5:5King James Version (KJV)
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. If you can't lose your salvation by committing huge sins like fornication, how can you lose your salvation by not doing enough good works? Lets take a look of people going to hell:Revelation 21:8, But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Does this list contain "failed to be a disciple of Christ" "failed to give up all their sin 613 levitical laws, best of luck giving them all up!" The list is for all mankind, at some point somebody was fearful of something, that is a sin, we all told a lie, that is a sin, those of you who are trying to earn salvation, fail to realize you deserve hell as the bible declares! A person can not be saved until he admits he is a guilty sinner, deserving of hell! And you can not pay your debt of millions of sins you committed by being a nice person, if you think you can, then you will find out you were wrong once you pass into eternity! The bible doesn't even have the word persevere, it has the word preserve though, when it says we are preserved as believers

 

[Christ_empowered]

I think the question is...once saved, is there more involved? I think if Christ saves a person, that person will eventually do good things because of the inner-working of The Holy Ghost, not because of promise of reward for doing well+punishment for failing to do so. I think the reminders are there to help keep us focused.

 

[llama]

I think the question is...once saved, is there more involved? I think if Christ saves a person, that person will eventually do good things because of the inner-working of The Holy Ghost, not because of promise of reward for doing well+punishment for failing to do so. I think the reminders are there to help keep us focused.

Nothing more involved!that's not the case for some people who believed and got saved, and became atheists, they are still saved according to the bible:
2 Timothy 2:13Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
13 if we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
It makes absolutely no sense if you don't even have to KEEP BELIEVING in order to be saved, for you to think that you can lose it if you don't do enough good works to keep it. Biblically, you can become a muslim, and still end up in the Christian heaven according to 2nd timothy 2 13 as long as you have been born again at some point in your life!

 

[Drew]

If we had to pay anything on our own for our sins, plus Jesus' finished work on the cross, the bible would be clear, and contain 100s of verses on WHAT exact WORK gets us into heaven like feeding the homeless,...

And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?" 17And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."18Then he said to Him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness;19Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself."20The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?" 21Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."22But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property. 23And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. [Matthew 19: 16-23, NASB]

 

[llama]

The rich ruler asked what work must I do, not what must I do, Jesus perceived he was self righteous and knew he was trusting the law to save him, which has no saving power to it, Jesus showed him how he failed to keep the law of covetousness, Jesus is not preaching works based salvation but educating a young man that works can not save unless you keep them all 613 perfectly. Let's take a look at the saved life vs crucified life, I'll copy and paste so you guys can learn the difference is, I have to fire up my pc give me a few minutes

 

[llama]

If i was to copy this webpage, it would flood the forum, so I'll link it instead: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/salvation_webpages/28-are_you_really_a_christian.htm and feel free to debate me more on the rich young ruler, I didn't take much time to explain it thoroughly! BUT when a person asked, what must I do to be saved? He asked the right question, lets see the answer Acts 16:30-31Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

30 and brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Believe on means to put your faith and trust in him to take you to heaven, different from believe in

 

[Drew]

If we had to pay anything on our own for our sins, plus Jesus' finished work on the cross, the bible would be clear, and contain 100s of verses on WHAT exact WORK gets us into heaven like feeding the homeless,...

This is a common question: If Paul really means what he says here (and I believe he does:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]

...how do we know that we have "done enough"?

Well, we need not worry. Although I have been stressing that we need to take everything Paul says seriously, I have never denied - and in fact I have repeatedly affirmed - that it is the Holy Spirit at work in us that produces 'saving works'. So I trust the Spirit will do enough; after all, I also believe that faith guarantees salvation in the sense that real faith will most assuredly produce 'saving works', again through the action of the Spirit.

So we do not have to ignore Romans 2:6-7: we can affirm it, and yet also be confident that if we really have faith, we will "pass" the Romans 2 judgment.

 

[Drew]

The bible doesn't promise you salvation if you put your trust in Jesus 90% and yourself 10% to get you to heaven.

Strawman, at least relative to the position I have been expressing. As per my last post, it is really "all about the work of Spirit", not my unaided moral efforts. So even though, unlike you, I don't have to sweep aside Romans 2:6-7, I can still affirm that it is only by grace that I am empowered to do good things. So in a very real sense, I can affirm that salvation is all about what Jesus has done.

 

[Drew]

The rich ruler asked what work must I do, not what must I do, Jesus perceived he was self righteous and knew he was trusting the law to save him, which has no saving power to it, Jesus showed him how he failed to keep the law of covetousness, Jesus is not preaching works based salvation but educating a young man that works can not save unless you keep them all 613 perfectly. Let's take a look at the saved life vs crucified life, I'll copy and paste so you guys can learn the difference is, I have to fire up my pc give me a few minutes

I think you are saying some good and true things here - no doubt there is a sense in which Jesus is suggesting that works cannot save. But, given all the other stuff we have in the New Testament, we can be fairly confident that, underneath Jesus' words to the rich young ruler, is the idea that he (the rich young ruler) will never be able to attain eternal life based on his own acts of moral goodness.

Well, no kidding.

But no one here, especially me, is saying that we can get anywhere without the indwelling power of the Spirit. So I think Jesus is warning the young ruler about the futility of "moral self-effort". He is not denying that, with God's help, we can do saving good works. Note what Jesus goes on to say:

24Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."25When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?" 26And looking at them Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

This certainly is consistent with the position that we can be empowered by God unto good works that save.

Just as, to be fair, it is also consistent with your view that "it's all about faith and works don't matter".

So, in the end, I don't think the text is particularly helpful at supporting either your view or my view.

So I repent of my posting the rich young ruler text as if it were evidence for the "salvation by good works" position that I believe Paul endorses. It is instead, I believe, a clever bit of rhetoric in which Jesus shows that without God we cannot win eternal life, no matter on what basis that eternal life is ultimately granted.

 

[dadof10]

God has put a condition on this free gift, of our believing Jesus paid it all, and that we won't in the future try to earn heaven by works, and to correct you, you have to accept Jesus as savior, he already is Lord!

Is accepting "Jesus as Savior" a "work"? It's something that MUST BE DONE IN ORDER TO BE BORN AGAIN, right? So, how can you call it a "free gift" if we HAVE TO do something to earn it?

 

[Drew]

llama, I hope you understand the following:

1. I vigorously and furiously deny that we can "earn" heaven "on our own";

2. I affirm what Paul writes in Romans 2 and elsewhere - eternal life is granted based on the "evidence" of good works. But I hasten to add that it is essentially the Holy Spirit in us that is responsible for these works.

To paraphrase NT Wright:

Paul affirms salvation by faith alone and he also affirms salvation by good works. What sense does this make? It makes Spirit-sense.

 

[llama]

Is accepting "Jesus as Savior" a "work"? It's something that MUST BE DONE IN ORDER TO BE BORN AGAIN, right? So, how can you call it a "free gift" if we HAVE TO do something to earn it?

We just ask for his free gift of salvation and receive it. Who here thinks if you ask someone to give you their Lamborghini as a gift is working for it? Who here thinks the person asking for a Lamborghini as a gift worked for it and earned it when he received the lamborghini?

 

[llama]

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's Corner/Doctrines/romans_213.htm this explains romans 2

 

[Drew]

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's Corner/Doctrines/romans_213.htm this explains romans 2

I plan to get to this later and will respond. I am always open to being surprised but I have dealt with this matter for years and all the arguments that I read that try to escape the plain sense of Romans 2:6-7 seem quite implausible. Perhaps the least implausible is that Paul is speaking "hypothetically" in Romans 2. Again, I think there is no reason to believe this at all and plenty of reason to believe that he is dead serious.

 

[llama]

I plan to get to this later and will respond. I am always open to being surprised but I have dealt with this matter for years and all the arguments that I read that try to escape the plain sense of Romans 2:6-7 seem quite implausible. Perhaps the least implausible is that Paul is speaking "hypothetically" in Romans 2. Again, I think there is no reason to believe this at all and plenty of reason to believe that he is dead serious.

What exactly do you disagree with from the explanation in the link I gave you?

 

[Drew]

I cannot access the link for technical reasons. I will try to sort that out. Obviously, if you are willing to post extracts directly, that makes things easier for me (and others, too).

 

[llama]

Find me a similar verse to this, I want one for with his flesh a man worketh unto righteousness, I have an exact opposite King James Version
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10 10