If you believe you can lose your salvation, you are not saved!(explanation)

[Jethro Bodine]

Nobody thinks that. That's the point. You say we must "ask" and "receive". These are conditions put by God on salvation. We must ask and receive or we are not saved. We MUST do something OR not receive salvation. This is not "works salvation" or "earning salvation" anymore than charitable giving or baptism is "earning salvation".

You'd both come into agreement if you'd make the distinction between 'justification' (being declared righteous) and 'salvation' that Paul makes:

"for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." (Romans 10:10 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:17-24

Based on the above mentioned scriptures, what was the "work" that Abraham did, in verse 21?

1. The works of the law of Moses
2. Work, as in a man does work in exchange for wages.
3. A Good deed
4. Obedience to the Voice of God
5. Other [Please explain]

JLB, dadof10,

By faith Abraham was circumcised:

"Now Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin." (Genesis 17:24 NASB)

What was the 'work' that Abraham did in being circumcised?

1. The works of the law of Moses
2. Work, as in a man does work in exchange for wages.
3. A good deed.
4. Obedience to the voice of God.
5. Other (explain).

 

[JLB]

But what can JUSTIFY a person? Why are you not addressing the specific point of justification? Justification (not salvation) is by believing all by itself:

"David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works" (Romans 4:6 NASB)

24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
James 2:24-26

You are still trying to falsely disconnect obedience, the obedience of faith, from faith.

Faith without obedience, does not function, just like a body without the spirit id dead and does not function.

Rahab was justified by the work of obedience, and not by "believing all by itself".

JLB, dadof10,

By faith Abraham was circumcised:

"Now Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin." (Genesis 17:24 NASB)

What was the 'work' that Abraham did in being circumcised?

1. The works of the law of Moses
2. Work, as in a man does work in exchange for wages.
3. A good deed.
4. Obedience to the voice of God.
5. Other (explain).

4 - Obedience to the Voice of God.

Just like the children of Israel brought down the walls of Jericho, by the obedience of faith, not by the work and effort one does in order to receive wages, or the works of the law, but by the obedience of faith.



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Faith without obedience, does not function

Then how did Abraham 'by faith' offer Isaac up on the altar?
"By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac" (Hebrews 11:17 NASB)
His faith is why he offered Isaac up. His faith came first, then the obedience caused by that faith.

And how did Rahab's faith function in protecting the spies if not by first being present in her alone all by itself? It didn't stay that way, but it started out that way.

Faith had to come first in order for there to be the obedience of faith. But you're saying faith without (before?) obedience does not function? What does that mean?

And, seriously, don't forget to answer my post #62. I'm anxious to see your answer(s).
I want to know what you say Abraham's work in obeying God to be circumcised was. Just as you wanted to know what llama said Abraham's work in offering Isaac up on the altar was.

 

[JLB]

Then how did Abraham 'by faith' offer Isaac up on the altar?
"By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac" (Hebrews 11:17 NASB)
His faith is why he offered Isaac up. His faith came first, then the obedience caused by that faith.

And how did Rahab's faith function in protecting the spies if not by first being present in her alone all by itself? It didn't stay that way, but it started out that way.

Faith had to come first in order for there to be the obedience of faith. But you're saying faith without (before?) obedience does not function? What does that mean?

And, seriously, don't forget to answer my post #62. I'm anxious to see your answer(s).
I want to know what you say Abraham's work in obeying God to be circumcised was. Just as you wanted to know what llama said Abraham's work in offering Isaac up on the altar was.

His faith went from being dormant inactive, function-less, and dead, and became "alive", active and result-producing WHEN he offered Issac on the altar.

Likewise, God's faith wasn't "result-producing" until He actually spoke "let there be light'.

In other words, there wasn't any "light", even though there was faith "all by itself" residing in God's heart, for "light" to be manifested.

as it is written - Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. Genesis 1:3

JLB

 

[JLB]

And, seriously, don't forget to answer my post #62. I'm anxious to see your answer(s).
I want to know what you say Abraham's work in obeying God to be circumcised was. Just as you wanted to know what llama said Abraham's work in offering Isaac up on the altar was.

I answered your question is post number 63.

Here is my answer again -

What was the 'work' that Abraham did in being circumcised?

1. The works of the law of Moses
2. Work, as in a man does work in exchange for wages.
3. A good deed.
4. Obedience to the voice of God.
5. Other (explain).

4 - Obedience to the Voice of God.

Just like the children of Israel brought down the walls of Jericho, by the obedience of faith, not by the work and effort one does in order to receive wages, or the works of the law, but by the obedience of faith.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Then how did Abraham 'by faith' offer Isaac up on the altar?
"By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac" (Hebrews 11:17 NASB)
His faith is why he offered Isaac up. His faith came first, then the obedience caused by that faith.

Likewise, it is the action of our obedience, in confessing Jesus as Lord [YHWH] apart from the works of the law, apart from the works to receive wages, or good works... that makes our faith complete, alive, and able manifest salvation...


as it is written - that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

and again - ...with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Like a quarter that has two sides, a head and a tails, that is worth 25 cents... if I separate the quarter into two halves, with a head and the tails, and take it to the store, can I buy anything with just the head? [ Call it ]

Does the halve with the head have any value to obtain what you desire to obtain?

Isn't it the complete quarter that has the value?

Likewise, faith without the corresponding act of obedience, all by itself, can not obtain the salvation, or healing it was meant to obtain for us.


Consider the woman with the flow of blood -

20 And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. 21 For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” 22 But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour. Matthew 9:20-22

The woman had faith in heart, but it wasn't until she acted by touching the hem of His garment that she was made well.

This act was apart from the works of the law, apart from working to receive wages, and apart from good deeds, but rather this act was the effort that obedience required.



JLB

 

[Drew]

The answer is quite simple. There were a group of Jews in Paul's time who believed that they could be saved by keeping the Law. This is abundantly clear from Romans 2:17, “Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God.” Those Jews were RESTING, or relying upon the keeping of God's Law, to save them. The Apostle Paul goes on, from Romans 2:18 to Romans 3:19, to inform the Jews that they hadn't done a very good job of keeping the Law and were a bunch of hypocrites! He concludes his indictment against them with Romans 3:20, “THEREFORE by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”

All true but, again, it's important to ask what Paul meant by "deeds of the law". More to the point, it is important to not assume that "deeds of the law" is the same concept as "good works".

I suggest it is not and that we are therefore not forced to deny the teaching of final salvation based on good works that Paul so clearly espouses in Romans 2:6-7. Paul generally uses the phrase "works" (or deeds) to denote the practices of the Law of Moses which, despite misunderstanding about this, was given exclusively to Israel. More specifically, when Paul asserts that one is not saved by "works of the Law" (or, more concisely "by works), he is really simply saying salvation is not limited to Jews. No doubt there will be howls of objection - if anyone is left that is actually willing to stand up for their belief that good works are not necessary for salvation - that I am bending the concept "works" out of shape in asserting that it is really a coded way to refer to ethnicity. Well, fair enough. But I am prepared to vigorously defend that interpretation with plenty of Biblical evidence (although if the moderators will permit, not in the present post).

But for starters, I will draw an analogy. Imagine that there is a religious group called the Sneetches that have a code - the law of the Sneetches" - that only they (Sneetches) followed and that governed all aspects of their lives - how they dress, what holidays they take, what food they eat, what moral rules they follow. Suppose further that there are elements of this code that are designed to clearly tell the rest of the world "we are Sneetches and we are an insular, closed group different from the rest of you". So, for example, their code might prescribe the wearing of bright blue hats to clearly distinguish themselves from the rest of society. Now suppose further, these Sneetches believed that only Sneetches go to heaven. Along comes a Sneetch who has a revelation that "god" wants everyone in heaven, not just Sneetches. So that person, "Ed the Sneetch", writes "you are not saved by doing works of the law of the Sneetches".

In this context, this is clearly a coded way of saying "Not only Sneetches can be saved". It is certainly not a denial that people, Sneetch or non-Sneetch, need to do good deeds to be saved, even though the law of the Sneetches does indeed have elements that prescribe good deeds.

The thing you need to remember is that while the Law of Moses does prescribe "good works", a huge chunk of it has nothing really to do with good works, but instead functions to mark out the Jew as distinct from the Gentile.

Paul's concern is that (many) Jews thought salvation was a privilege reserved for Israel alone. So he has argues against this saying "you are not saved by works of the Law". I will bet he is stroking his beard in "heaven" now, wishing he had used different phrasing since, seemingly, people have not understood him and, in the process, shockingly decided to discarded this Pauline teaching:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]

 

[dadof10]

You'd both come into agreement if you'd make the distinction between 'justification' (being declared righteous) and 'salvation' that Paul makes:

"for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." (Romans 10:10 NASB)

I have purposely ignored your posts on "being declared righteous", because that's not what justification is. We are not "declared righteous" we are actually made righteous. Technically, we are infused with righteousness, we don't have righteousness imputed on to us. If we chose to argue this point, it would be a long and time consuming tangent (I have to remind myself of all the technicalities of both arguments). I know there is a difference between justification and salvation, but for our purposes here, they mean basically the same thing, getting to Heaven. If you want to discuss it, I'm game. We would have to start another thread, though.

 

[dadof10]

JLB, dadof10,

By faith Abraham was circumcised:

"Now Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin." (Genesis 17:24 NASB)

What was the 'work' that Abraham did in being circumcised?

1. The works of the law of Moses
2. Work, as in a man does work in exchange for wages.
3. A good deed.
4. Obedience to the voice of God.
5. Other (explain).

I would say 4, obedience to the voice of God, even though 2 is longer (usually the longer one is right ). Oooo, I feel like I just fell into a trap...:biggrin

 

[Drew]

I know there is a difference between justification and salvation, but for our purposes here, they mean basically the same thing, getting to Heaven. If you want to discuss it, I'm game. We would have to start another thread, though.

I think understanding the nature of justification, and its relation to salvation is an interesting and important matter. I would probably participate in such a thread.

 

[Drew]

Technically, we are infused with righteousness, we don't have righteousness imputed on to us.

I am not sure what you mean by being "infused with righteousness". However, I certainly do agree with you that we are not "imputed" righteousness. I suspect you are aware that most Protestants believe in the notion that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us. I don't think Paul ever intended to say this.

 

[dadof10]

I am not sure what you mean by being "infused with righteousness". However, I certainly do agree with you that we are not "imputed" righteousness. I suspect you are aware that most Protestants believe in the notion that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us. I don't think Paul ever intended to say this.

Me either. There is however some verses that seem to make their case. The short answer is that "infused" means that the soul is actually MADE righteous, not merely DECLARED righteous. We can ALLOW God to actually infuse our souls with His righteousness, and our souls actually become capable of enjoying Heaven, as opposed to Luther's "snow covered dung heap" analogy. When I get time, I'll start the thread. I'll be in and out today, so hopefully either today or tomorrow. Or, if you have time, you can start it and I'll participate. I hope Jethro will also, as I value his opinion too.

 

[dadof10]

After reading so many of these threads that go on endlessly and never come to a conclusion, I think I've come to a conclusion! I think maybe it's none of our business. I'm thinking maybe God doesn't want us to know who is saved and who isn't because that's between Him and the individual person, not between that person and us. I think what God wants us to make our business is OUR relationship with Him and to make sure we each individually are right with Him through the sacrifice of Jesus and the acceptance of that payment and forgiveness for our sins. We need to focus on what we are doing in service to the Lord, not on what our neighbor is doing. When we try to figure out something that isn't our business, perhaps this is why this subject never gets settled.

You're only saying this because your not saved. :biggrin

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Likewise, it is the action of our obedience, in confessing Jesus as Lord [YHWH] apart from the works of the law, apart from the works to receive wages, or good works... that makes our faith complete, alive, and able manifest salvation...

You're doing it again.
Stop talking about what me and you essentially already agree on, that works have to be part of a legitimate salvation experience.
What about justification? Paul said believing all by itself is what makes a person righteous:

" with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness" (Romans 10:10 NASB)
"God credits righteousness apart from works" (Romans 4:6 NASB)

And because we have first been made righteous through believing apart from works we then SHOW ourselves to have that righteousness by what we do:

"the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous" (1 John 3:7 NASB)

But you have it that somehow there is something righteous inside of us that is able to do righteous work that God then declares us righteous for doing. That is the very definition of the damnable works gospel.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I would say 4, obedience to the voice of God, even though 2 is longer (usually the longer one is right ). Oooo, I feel like I just fell into a trap...:biggrin

A trap?
Maybe, lol.
I'll see when I have more time to digest your answers.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have purposely ignored your posts on "being declared righteous", because that's not what justification is.

Well, I never!

Justification is both, being made legally righteous (as you believe it means). But it also means being shown to be righteous.

Paul is teaching the first meaning of justification above--being MADE righteous before God (Galatians 2:16 NASB).
James is teaching the second meaning of justification--being SHOWN to be righteous in God's sight (James 2:24 NASB).

Once a person gets this understanding down it removes all confusion and potential contradiction between James' justification by works, and Paul's justification by faith.

 

[JLB]

But what can JUSTIFY a person? Why are you not addressing the specific point of justification? Justification (not salvation) is by believing all by itself:

"David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works" (Romans 4:6 NASB)

But you have it that somehow there is something righteous inside of us that is able to do righteous work that God then declares us righteous for doing. That is the very definition of the damnable works gospel.

Couldn't be further from the truth.

Not righteous work, nor works of the law, nor work that receives wages, but obedience to the Gospel command repent.

Only those who obey, truly believe.

32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him. Matthew 21:32

Which group of people believed John's Message?

1. The tax collector's & harlots who were Baptized by John?
2. The Chief Priest's & elders of the people who stood by and watched?

Group 1 or Group 2 ?


JLB

 

[dadof10]

Well, I never!

Justification is both, being made legally righteous (as you believe it means).

Humm...OK. I thought that being "declared" righteous meant that a person didn't have any actual righteousness, but was looked upon as righteous due to the merits of Christ (imputed to the believer).

But it also means being shown to be righteous.

Paul is teaching the first meaning of justification above--being MADE righteous before God (Galatians 2:16 NASB).
James is teaching the second meaning of justification--being SHOWN to be righteous in God's sight (James 2:24 NASB).

Once a person gets this understanding down it removes all confusion and potential contradiction between James' justification by works, and Paul's justification by faith.

I know that's what you think James is talking about. I don't see it. Paul and James can be easily reconciled by simply looking at the context of the word "works". It's obvious that James is talking about good deeds and Paul works of the law, two totally different things. It's not at all obvious that James means "shown to be righteous". We have gone over James before and neither one of us is going to convince the other. I am glad that you see righteousness as infused rather than imputed. it was the word "declared" that confused me. It's usually a buzz word for imputation.

 

[dadof10]

More specifically, when Paul asserts that one is not saved by "works of the Law" (or, more concisely "by works), he is really simply saying salvation is not limited to Jews.

I've been thinking about this all day and I think you may be onto something here. It also dovetails very nicely with Acts 15. The "Judaizers" wanted circumcision, but not just for the sake of hygene. They wanted the gentiles to BECOME Jews first and obey the law, before becoming Christian. This could assume an attitude that only Jews (who believed in Christ) could be saved. I need to re-read Acts 15 and following again when I get home with this in mind. Good point.