If you believe you can lose your salvation, you are not saved!(explanation)

[llama]

I cannot access the link for technical reasons. I will try to sort that out. Obviously, if you are willing to post extracts directly, that makes things easier for me (and others, too).

Tragically, the author of the preceding statement is woefully ignorant of the Scriptures. Romans 2:7 says, “To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life.” Taken by itself, Romans 2:7 would seem to imply that good works are required for salvation. An even more powerful Scripture that would seem to support this same notion is found in Romans 2:13, “For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.” Now please careful read Romans 3:20, “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” We have a 100% direct contradiction here. Indeed, this has confused many people who are ignorant of the Scriptures, including the author of the evangelicaloutreach.org website.

So what is the answer? Which is it... are we justified by obeying the works of the Law or not? Romans 2:13 says, YES. Romans 3:20 says, NO. Why the contradiction? What's going on here?

The answer is quite simple. There were a group of Jews in Paul's time who believed that they could be saved by keeping the Law. This is abundantly clear from Romans 2:17, “Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God.” Those Jews were RESTING, or relying upon the keeping of God's Law, to save them. The Apostle Paul goes on, from Romans 2:18 to Romans 3:19, to inform the Jews that they hadn't done a very good job of keeping the Law and were a bunch of hypocrites! He concludes his indictment against them with Romans 3:20, “THEREFORE by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”

Just as the author of evangelicaloutreach.org errantly wrestles the Scriptures, so also did the Jews foolishly think that salvation requires our own self-righteousness. Paul told the Jews in Romans 2:7-13 that if they were to be justified by the Law, then they would have to KEEP IT 100%; but none of them had, which is plainly stated in Romans 3:12, “They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.” The Jews were resting in a false hope, thinking that they had kept the Law to God's satisfaction; but Paul clearly points out that they had utterly failed to do so. It is impossible for any man or woman to keep God's Law perfectly. Romans 3:23, “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.” Paul makes clear that the PURPOSE of God's Law is to show men their sinful condition, “...for by the law is the knowledge of sin” (Romans 3:20b).

The Apostle Paul reiterates the purpose of God's Law in Romans 7:13, “Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.” The Law shows mankind his inability to please God in his own self-righteousness. No one can keep the whole Law of God, no one. We all fall short of pleasing God. Mankind tried to keep God's Law and utterly failed. God's Law had served its purpose in showing men their sinful condition and; thus, need for a Savior. God DIDN'T give us the Law to merit or work our way into Heaven. This is what many people foolishly believe. That is self-righteousness. Persisting to do good is NOT a part of salvation as the author of evangelicaloutreach.org teaches.

There is NO contradiction in the Scriptures. Salvation is by God's grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Whether or not a person is willing to change their sinful habits has nothing to do with being saved. A changed life is the FRUIT of genuine repentance and not a part of the ROOT of saving-faith. Salvation is receiving; not giving. Eternal life is God's gift to fallen humanity (Romans 5:15; 6:23).

Certainly, “If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new” (2nd Corinthians 5:17); however, the spiritual regeneration which has taken place (i.e., the indwelling of the Spirit of Christ) doesn't mean that immediate reformation will follow. Growth in grace takes time. 1st Peter 2:2 teaches this Biblical truth,“As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby.” Expecting a babe in Christ to forsake their sinful habits is like expecting a baby to run a marathon. I am not approving of sin or saying it's acceptable for a believer to continue living in sin, not at all; I am simply saying that salvation has absolutely NOTHING to do with cleaning up one's life. The changed life comes AFTER a person is saved, as a result of being saved; and not as a requirement to be saved. That's the big difference that so many people don't understand. Salvation is obtained solely by Christ's righteousness, and not by our own self-righteousness or human effort in any way.

John 6:29, “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom he hath sent.” The only work which God requires from a lost sinner to be saved is that he or she BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.

 

[Drew]

Find me a similar verse to this, I want one for with his flesh a man worketh unto righteousness, I have an exact opposite King James Version
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10 10

I am not exactly sure what you are asking, but I am happy to talk about Romans 10:10:

10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. [Romans 10:10, NASB]

I do not dispute that this text is consistent with your view that works don't matter. But, and this is really, really important, it also is consistent with what Paul writes in Romans 2:6-7.

And as much as any number of us might not like it, Romans 2:6-7 is there and we need to deal with it.

So back to Romans 10:10. I can honour this text, and Romans 2:6-7 as well, by inferring that what Paul believes is that, as I have been saying all along, when we "believe and confess" we are given the Spirit that then produces works that will be judged unto salvation. So Paul certainly could be simply be expressing this whole concept by saying "confession results in salvation".

If Paul had said this instead:

10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation without any need to affirm the truthfulness of that confession by looking for "good works" evidence.

....then we would have a huge problem - he would be contradicting this:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]

But fortunately for all of us, Paul wrote the version of Romans 10:10 that you posted, which allows for the possibility that, as per Romans 2:6-7, it is the 'good works' that are the means by which you go from "confession" to "salvation".

Remember, Paul uses "resulting in" phrasing! I got into college "resulting in" a job. Does that mean I did not need to study for four years? Of course not.

 

[Drew]

Tragically, the author of the preceding statement is woefully ignorant of the Scriptures.....

. You made the same post in another thread and then refused to deal with my replies. Are you going to deal with them this time?

 

[llama]

Well I actually tried to explain but a mod deleted my post, because our bibles say different things, and since God said he will preserve his word, we have an inspired bible, most modern translations were done by homosexuals, and Satan worshippers, it's up to us to decide what bible to use, I use the one that doesn't remove the word Godhead which is the trinity

(This is untrue. I only deleted the portion of your post where you demanded that other forum members only be allowed to use your preferred translation of the Bible. The rest of your post, whether containing or lacking any explanation was left totally intact. Do not dispute moderators actions in public forums. Tos2.14. Obadiah.)

 

[JLB]

Romans 6:23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Ask yourself, is a gift free?

Ask yourself, what is the condition that I must meet in order to receive this free gift?

Here are some words from the Author of our salvation, for you to consider.

And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:15-16


JLB

 

[llama]

Ask yourself, what is the condition that I must meet in order to receive this free gift?

Here are some words from the Author of our salvation, for you to consider.

And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:15-16 http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False Doctrines/Baptismal Regeneration/mark_16-16.htm


JLB

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False Doctrines/Baptismal Regeneration/mark_16-16.htm

 

[JLB]

No.
JUSTIFICATION is by faith all by itself:
"it is with your heart that you believe and are justified" (Romans 10:10 NIV)

If that justification doesn't produce the works that Christ will use to measure faith then you were either never justified in the first place, or you lost that declaration of righteousness through contempt or neglect for the free gift.

Holy works is how we know that we have the righteousness of Christ (1 John 3:7 NIV). That's why works are the measure of faith Christ will use to either condemn us or save us on the Day of Wrath.

No good works can save a person, only obedient faith can, for faith all by itself, without the work of obedience is dead.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
James 2:17,26

Faith is inactive and can not function, it it does not have the corresponding action of obedience.

Just as a body without the spirit is function-less and inactive, unable to produce anything, so is faith without the act of obedience.


JLB

 

[llama]

No good works can save a person, only obedient faith can, for faith all by itself, without the work of obedience is dead.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
James 2:17,26

Faith is inactive and can not function, it it does not have the corresponding action of obedience.

Just as a body without the spirit is function-less and inactive, unable to produce anything, so is faith without the act of obedience.


JLB

Are We Justified by Faith and Works?

By David J. Stewart

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." —James 2:24

No! Many people misunderstand the words of James the Apostle because they don't know their Bible well. I don't think I've received even one letter of debate from a Catholic who didn't bring up the words of James, "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works" (James 2:18). James goes on to say in verse 24, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." At first glance, it sure does seem like the Bible is requiring works for salvation; BUT, as you will see, nothing could be further from the TRUTH!

Carefully notice James 2:21, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" This event took place in Genesis 22:8-10. Now notice Genesis 15:6, "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness." The event which took place in Genesis 15:6 was different from the event which took place in Genesis 22:8-10. We see in the New Testament that Paul spoke of the ROOT of Abraham's faith; BUT, James spoke of the FRUIT of Abraham's faith. We read in Romans 4:3, "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." This occurred in Genesis 15:6, which is when Abraham was born again. Paul said in Romans 5:1, "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Paul doesn't mention works. Romans 4:5 declares, "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Yet, James declares in James 2:21, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" This event took place years later, when Isaac had grown at least old enough to speak clearly to his father (Genesis 22:7). James is simply saying that if a person is genuinely saved by faith, then there should be some FRUIT (good works) in that person's life to show it. BUT, James was NOT teaching that works are necessary to be saved--they aren't! Abraham was saved by faith ALONE! Titus 3:5 clearly states, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us..."

Also, notice carefully James' words, "...shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works"(James 2:18). With God we are justified by FAITH; BUT with men we are justified by WORKS. The reason is simply because mankind cannot see out heart; but God can. We read in 1st Samuel 16:7, "...for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart." James said, "shew me" your faith and I'll "shew you" my faith. Every believer possessing the Holy Spirit of God should be a new creature in the Lord, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." This is what James was looking for.

So don't let any Catholic fool you into believing that you must have good works to go to Heaven, you don't. Looking at the Old Testament by itself, I would never have any reason to think that Lot was a Christian. Yet, we read in 2nd Peter 2:6-7, "And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked." Did you read that ... "just Lot"? James was simply teaching that there should be some good works in a Christian's life to back up his testimony. However, this doesn't mean conclusively that a professed Christian without any good works is not saved. We certainly have a right to question their salvation; BUT, we cannot say for certain because we cannot see their heart. King David killed an innocent man (Uriah) to hide an unwanted pregnancy from an affair with the man's wife (Bathsheba). Would you have thought David was a Christian at that moment? Of course not! But David was a Christian, who had sinned horribly.

The Book of James should be a challenge to every believer to "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16). And the Book of Romans should be a challenge to every believer to be aggressive in winning lost souls to Christ, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth..." Most importantly is that we NOT confuse the ROOT of our faith, with the FRUIT of our faith--because ADDING works to faith is a sure road to Hell.

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." —Romans 4:5
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's Corner/Doctrines/faith_and_works.htm

 

[Drew]

Well I actually tried to explain but a mod deleted my post, because our bibles say different things, and since God said he will preserve his word, we have an inspired bible, most modern translations were done by homosexuals, and Satan worshippers, it's up to us to decide what bible to use, I use the one that doesn't remove the word Godhead which is the trinity

(This is untrue. I only deleted the portion of your post where you demanded that other forum members only be allowed to use your preferred translation of the Bible. The rest of your post, whether containing or lacking any explanation was left totally intact. Do not dispute moderators actions in public forums. Tos2.14. Obadiah.)

No problem. I will address the material in your posts - I see there are now two of them.

 

[Drew]

An even more powerful Scripture that would seem to support this same notion is found in Romans 2:13, “For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.” Now please careful read Romans 3:20, “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” We have a 100% direct contradiction here.

We do not, although I certainly understand why you would think so. Let me set aside Romans 2:13 just for the moment - I will not let it slide forever, fear not.

Just as the author of evangelicaloutreach.org errantly wrestles the Scriptures, so also did the Jews foolishly think that salvation requires our own self-righteousness. Paul told the Jews in Romans 2:7-13 that if they were to be justified by the Law, then they would have to KEEP IT 100%;

Paul never says anything of the kind in Romans 2:7-13.

Paul makes clear that the PURPOSE of God's Law is to show men their sinful condition, “...for by the law is the knowledge of sin” (Romans 3:20b).

Notice how in Romans 2:6-7, Paul never says that those who do the works of the Law of Moses will get eternal life, it is those who "persist in doing good". Not the same thing:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]

I will get to other elements of your argument later. But here is a question that I am quite sure you will not be able to answer, even though it is a very simple question. It is this:

Why would Paul write this:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]

....if he did not believe it? I eagerly anticipate your answer.

 

[Drew]

Just as the author of evangelicaloutreach.org errantly wrestles the Scriptures, so also did the Jews foolishly think that salvation requires our own self-righteousness.

It is critical to draw a distinction between the following views:

- the view that we can earn eternal life due good works we perform without the aid of the Holy Spirit;
- the view that, through the indwelling Holy Spirit, we can perform good works that are then the basis for getting eternal life.

It is, of course, possible to deny the first (as I believe Paul does) yet affirm the second (again, as I believe Paul does).

Romans 3:12, “They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.”

Many people who argue that Paul does not mean to be taken seriously in Romans 2:6-7 appeal to texts like this one from Romans 3. But this text, and all the others like it, clearly describe the state of the human person apart from God and in the absence of the indwelling Spirit. That this is the case is made obvious by reading the details of the texts:

12All have turned aside, together they havebecome useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one."
13"Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,"
"The poison of asps is under their lips";
14"Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness";
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16Destruction and misery are in their paths,
17And the path of peace they have not known."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
[Romans 3:12-18, NASB]

This cannot be describing a believer:
- believers do not continually deceive (v13)
- believers mouths are not "full" of cursing and bitterness (v14)
- believers are certainly not "swift to shed blood" (v15)
- etc., etc., etc.

This is really an odd line of argument: take texts that describe the human being that has not been "born again" and use those texts, which naturally enough speak of the impossibility of such people doing good, to talk about how believers have no hope of doing good works, and therefore no hope of getting eternal life based on such good works.

 

[Drew]

The Apostle Paul reiterates the purpose of God's Law in Romans 7:13, “Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.” The Law shows mankind his inability to please God in his own self-righteousness. No one can keep the whole Law of God, no one. We all fall short of pleasing God. Mankind tried to keep God's Law and utterly failed. God's Law had served its purpose in showing men their sinful condition and; thus, need for a Savior. God DIDN'T give us the Law to merit or work our way into Heaven. This is what many people foolishly believe. That is self-righteousness. Persisting to do good is NOT a part of salvation as the author of evangelicaloutreach.org teaches.

First of all, it is demonstrably the case that Romans 7 does not describe the state of the believer, it describes the unbeliever (and the unbelieving Jew in particular). That Paul is talking about an unbeliever is so is clear from this part of the chapter:

21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! [Romans 7:21-25a, NASB]

Paul could not be more clear: He is looking back at his pre-Christian state (I suspect you will argue about Paul's use of the present tense here - by all means, bring it on!) and rejoicing that Jesus will deliver him from this state. So, like Romans 3, one cannot legitimately use Romans 7 to argue that the believer - who has the transforming Spirit within unlike the poor slob from Romans 7 - cannot do 'saving good works'.

Yet people make this argument time after time after time. How can you possibly believe that Romans 7 describes a believer? If for no other reason, at the very end Paul clearly declares that Jesus liberates us from the Romans 7 state.

But Paul indeed does say elsewhere (e.g. Ephesians) that we are not saved by "works". In later posts, I will argue that he is not denying what he affirms in Romans 2 - salvation based on good works - he is instead denying that salvation is a privilege limited to Jews.

How do I possibly make this leap?

Answer: What marks out the Jew from the Gentile? Why doing the "works" of the Law of Moses, of course.

 

[dadof10]

We just ask for his free gift of salvation and receive it. Who here thinks if you ask someone to give you their Lamborghini as a gift is working for it? Who here thinks the person asking for a Lamborghini as a gift worked for it and earned it when he received the lamborghini?

Nobody thinks that. That's the point. You say we must "ask" and "receive". These are conditions put by God on salvation. We must ask and receive or we are not saved. We MUST do something OR not receive salvation. This is not "works salvation" or "earning salvation" anymore than charitable giving or baptism is "earning salvation".

 

[llama]

It is critical to draw a distinction between the following views:

- the view that we can earn eternal life due good works we perform without the aid of the Holy Spirit;
- the view that, through the indwelling Holy Spirit, we can perform good works that are then the basis for getting eternal life.

It is, of course, possible to deny the first (as I believe Paul does) yet affirm the second (again, as I believe Paul does).


Many people who argue that Paul does not mean to be taken seriously in Romans 2:6-7 appeal to texts like this one from Romans 3. But this text, and all the others like it, clearly describe the state of the human person apart from God and in the absence of the indwelling Spirit. That this is the case is made obvious by reading the details of the texts:

12All have turned aside, together they havebecome useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one."
13"Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,"
"The poison of asps is under their lips";
14"Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness";
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16Destruction and misery are in their paths,
17And the path of peace they have not known."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
[Romans 3:12-18, NASB]

This cannot be describing a believer:
- believers do not continually deceive (v13)
- believers mouths are not "full" of cursing and bitterness (v14)
- believers are certainly not "swift to shed blood" (v15)
- etc., etc., etc.

This is really an odd line of argument: take texts that describe the human being that has not been "born again" and use those texts, which naturally enough speak of the impossibility of such people doing good, to talk about how believers have no hope of doing good works, and therefore no hope of getting eternal life based on such good works.

Romans 3 12-18 is talking about mankind as a whole, neither saved or unsaved, [Deleted personal remarks for violation of ToS 2.4. WIP]

 

[Drew]

Romans 3 12-18 is talking about mankind as a whole, neither saved or unsaved,

How can that possibly be?

Let's look at what the text says again:

13"Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,"
"The poison of asps is under their lips"; [Romans10:13,NASB]

Are you telling us that Christians - people in whom the Holy Spirit dwells and are being transformed thereby - routinely and generally lie as this text states?

Please.

This is not argument you want to make - I will drown you in New Testament texts that show that the redeemed Christian believer has been set free from this sort of thing. Yes, believers do occasionally lie. But if they really are believers, there is no way their "throats are open graves".

 

[JLB]

Carefully notice James 2:21, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" This event took place in Genesis 22:8-10. Now notice Genesis 15:6, "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness." The event which took place in Genesis 15:6 was different from the event which took place in Genesis 22:8-10. We see in the New Testament that Paul spoke of the ROOT of Abraham's faith; BUT, James spoke of the FRUIT of Abraham's faith.

First of all, let's see if we can agree on the principle of what James is saying.

17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:17-24

Based on the above mentioned scriptures, what was the "work" that Abraham did, in verse 21?

1. The works of the law of Moses
2. Work, as in a man does work in exchange for wages.
3. A Good deed
4. Obedience to the Voice of God
5. Other [Please explain]

JLB

 

[burning heart]

Abrahams works , believing God ( faith ) and doing what He says .

 

[JLB]

Abrahams works , believing God ( faith ) and doing what He says .

 

[dadof10]

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False Doctrines/Baptismal Regeneration/mark_16-16.htm

Well, this may be off topic here, but this is from the article you linked.

"Baptism is simply a public demonstration of the inner work of regeneration, nothing more."

Could you please show me where Scripture calls baptism nothing more than a public demonstration of justification?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No good works can save a person, only obedient faith can, for faith all by itself, without the work of obedience is dead.

But what can JUSTIFY a person? Why are you not addressing the specific point of justification? Justification (not salvation) is by believing all by itself:

"David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works" (Romans 4:6 NASB)

"with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness" (Romans 10:10 NASB)

I think this is where you will again redefine faith to equal the definition of works, or, cite James to make the claim that works do the justifying.