If you believe you can lose your salvation, you are not saved!(explanation)

[Drew]

I've been thinking about this all day and I think you may be onto something here. It also dovetails very nicely with Acts 15. The "Judaizers" wanted circumcision, but not just for the sake of hygene. They wanted the gentiles to BECOME Jews first and obey the law, before becoming Christian. This could assume an attitude that only Jews (who believed in Christ) could be saved. I need to re-read Acts 15 and following again when I get home with this in mind. Good point.

I also suggest you read Ephesians 2:11 and following. That text immediately follows the famous "you are not saved by works" statement:

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. [Ephesians 2:8-9, NASB]

Here is that text:

Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands- 12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. 17And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near; 18for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, 20having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,21in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit. [Ephesians 2:11-22]

Note the "therefore" that implies that Paul is working out the implications of, among other things, what it means to be not be "saved by works". It really could not be more clear. Paul is upset with the notion that only Jews can be in God's family. The issue is not "good works", it is the "works", or dictates of the Law of Moses, given to Jews only, and seen by them as a kind of national charter.

 

[dadof10]

I also suggest you read Ephesians 2:11 and following. That text immediately follows the famous "you are not saved by works" statement:

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. [Ephesians 2:8-9, NASB]

Here is that text:

Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands- 12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. 17And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near; 18for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, 20having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,21in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit. [Ephesians 2:11-22]

Note the "therefore" that implies that Paul is working out the implications of, among other things, what it means to be not be "saved by works". It really could not be more clear. Paul is upset with the notion that only Jews can be in God's family. The issue is not "good works", it is the "works", or dictates of the Law of Moses, given to Jews only, and seen by them as a kind of national charter.

No, it really couldn't be more clear...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Humm...OK. I thought that being "declared" righteous meant that a person didn't have any actual righteousness, but was looked upon as righteous due to the merits of Christ (imputed to the believer).

That would be what I'm saying (one of the definitions, anyway).
Paul says believing solicits that imputation of Christ's righteousness "apart from works" (Romans 4:6 NASB).

"to whom God credits righteousness apart from works" (Romans 4:6 NASB)
"with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness" (Romans 10:10 NASB)

I know that's what you think James is talking about. I don't see it.

Here, let me help you:
"show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." (James 2:18 NASB)

Paul and James can be easily reconciled by simply looking at the context of the word "works". It's obvious that James is talking about good deeds and Paul works of the law, two totally different things.

Let's review what 'deeds' James uses in his 'faith without works' teaching:

James 1:27 NASB
"Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress (Deuteronomy 14:28-29 NASB, Deuteronomy 10:18 NASB), and to keep oneself unstained by the world."

James 2:9 NASB
"if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors (Leviticus 19:15 NASB)."

James 2:8 NASB
"If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," (Leviticus 19:18 NASB) you are doing well."

James 2:14-16 NASB
"What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body (Deuteronomy 15:7-8 NASB), what use is that?"

As you can see, the 'good deeds' he uses to illustrate his thesis 'faith without works is dead/ a man is justified by works' are works of the law. So 'works' in the following two statements from Paul and James means exactly the same thing--works of the law:

"a man is not justified by the works of the Law" (Galatians 2:16 NASB).
"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." (James 2:24 NASB).

So the word that is causing James and Paul to (supposedly) contradict each other here is the word 'justified', not 'works'. But, obviously, they have to be referring to different definitions of the word 'justified' or else the atheists and unbelievers are right and there really is a glaring contradiction in our Bibles that they can use to discredit the Bible and it's authors and say it is not inspired by God. Those two different definitions being 'to make one righteous' (Paul's usage), and 'to show one to be righteous' (James' usage).

I don't want you to take my word for it that 'justified' has these two distinct Biblical (and secular) usages. Examine the Strong's entry for the word 'justified':

From http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1344&t=KJV

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

It's easy to see from context which definition Paul and James each use in their writings. Particularly in James' teaching where he says, "show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." (James 2:18 NASB)

 

[dadof10]

That would be what I'm saying (one of the definitions, anyway).
Paul says believing solicits that imputation of Christ's righteousness "apart from works" (Romans 4:6 NASB).

"to whom God credits righteousness apart from works" (Romans 4:6 NASB)
"with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness" (Romans 10:10 NASB)


Here, let me help you:
"show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." (James 2:18 NASB)


Let's review what 'deeds' James uses in his 'faith without works' teaching:

James 1:27 NASB
"Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress (Deuteronomy 14:28-29 NASB, Deuteronomy 10:18 NASB), and to keep oneself unstained by the world."

James 2:9 NASB
"if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors (Leviticus 19:15 NASB)."

James 2:8 NASB
"If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," (Leviticus 19:18 NASB) you are doing well."

James 2:14-16 NASB
"What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body (Deuteronomy 15:7-8 NASB), what use is that?"

As you can see, the 'good deeds' he uses to illustrate his thesis 'faith without works is dead/ a man is justified by works' are works of the law. So 'works' in the following two statements from Paul and James means exactly the same thing--works of the law:

"a man is not justified by the works of the Law" (Galatians 2:16 NASB).
"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." (James 2:24 NASB).

So the word that is causing James and Paul to (supposedly) contradict each other here is the word 'justified', not 'works'. But, obviously, they have to be referring to different definitions of the word 'justified' or else the atheists and unbelievers are right and there really is a glaring contradiction in our Bibles that they can use to discredit the Bible and it's authors and say it is not inspired by God. Those two different definitions being 'to make one righteous' (Paul's usage), and 'to show one to be righteous' (James' usage).

I don't want you to take my word for it that 'justified' has these two distinct Biblical (and secular) usages. Examine the Strong's entry for the word 'justified':

From http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1344&t=KJV

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

It's easy to see from context which definition Paul and James each use in their writings. Particularly in James' teaching where he says, "show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." (James 2:18 NASB)

We've been down this road before. Doesn't this sound familiar to you? Because something is in the OT, or written in Deuteronomy doesn't mean it's properly part of the Mosaic law. Is belief in God part of the Mosaic law?

"I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have false gods before me" If we have "false gods" and believe in them instead of (or in addition to) God, will that affect our salvation? Would that be just a part of the "law of Moses", which doesn't save? Were the Jews required to believe in God? Would that make faith a "work of the law"? If this is your criteria, Paul not only contradicts James, but himself over and over. Atheists would be having a field day with this one. You can see, then that there are things in the OT, like charitable giving or taking care of the elderly or belief in God that would just be part of the moral law not necessarily in Paul's definition of the Mosaic law. Here is what James means by "works".

"If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?" (2:15-16 RSV)

We know this because the very next word is:

"So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead." (v.17)

It is a huge stretch to bring in everything James addresses throughout his letter and force it into the word "works" here.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We've been down this road before. Doesn't this sound familiar to you? Because something is in the OT, or written in Deuteronomy doesn't mean it's properly part of the Mosaic law. Is belief in God part of the Mosaic law?

"I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have false gods before me" If we have "false gods" and believe in them instead of (or in addition to) God, will that affect our salvation? Would that be just a part of the "law of Moses", which doesn't save? Were the Jews required to believe in God? Would that make faith a "work of the law"? If this is your criteria, Paul not only contradicts James, but himself over and over. Atheists would be having a field day with this one. You can see, then that there are things in the OT, like charitable giving or taking care of the elderly or belief in God that would just be part of the moral law not necessarily in Paul's definition of the Mosaic law. Here is what James means by "works".

"If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?" (2:15-16 RSV)

We know this because the very next word is:

"So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead." (v.17)

It is a huge stretch to bring in everything James addresses throughout his letter and force it into the word "works" here.

I do remember now. We left off here, if I'm not mistaken...

Show me where faith in Christ for the forgiveness of any and all sin is in the law.

This faith in Christ is what EVERYTHING ELSE is being contrasted with in Paul's discourse about "righteousness apart from works (of the law)" (Romans 4:6 NASB). He's saying there is NOTHING else that you can do that can make you righteous in God's sight--only a complete and total forgiveness of sin, through Christ, by faith, that the law could not provide can make you righteous before God.

No so with James. He's including the law of Moses in what he says justifies a man. So obviously he's talking about another meaning and usage of justification. Obviously. If not then we must concede that James is directly contradicting Paul and saying doing good works does wash away past sins making us righteous in God's sight.

Here is what James means by "works".

"If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?" (2:15-16 RSV)

I know that's what James means by 'works'. I just pointed that out in my last post. But how does doing this make a person righteous? How does this cleanse past sin (even sin that is unforgivable under the law) such that a person stands legally freed from the guilt of all their sin? Obviously it doesn't. Only the blood of Christ, applied through faith, can do that. Nothing else can do what the blood of Christ can do to wipe away unrighteousness and replace it with Christ's righteousness. That is what the glorious gospel is ALL about:

"Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses." (Acts 13:38-39 NASB)

"Which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses"--only the total forgiveness of sin through the blood of Christ applied by faith can make a person righteous Doing the law, or anything else, can not do what the blood of Christ does in the forgiveness and wiping away of unrighteousness and replacing it with Christ's righteousness.

 

[JLB]

Stop talking about what me and you essentially already agree on, that works have to be part of a legitimate salvation experience.
What about justification? Paul said believing all by itself is what makes a person righteous:

" with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness" (Romans 10:10 NASB)
"God credits righteousness apart from works" (Romans 4:6 NASB)

Well your down to only quoting partial verses, out of context to prop up your false theology.

Paul teaches a complete principle, believing faith, working together with the action of obedience.

Only the person who believes in their heart AND confesses with their mouth, obtains a divine result.

Only a complete faith, that has the corresponding action of obedience.

Then you quote another partial verse out of context, knowing that the works mentioned in Romans 4, is a reference to working to receive wages, as if I'm teaching a person can work to earn wages.

Can you obtain anything with a half of a quarter, Jethro?

Like a quarter that has two sides, a head and a tails, that is worth 25 cents... if I separate the quarter into two halves, with a head and the tails, and take it to the store, can I buy anything with just the head?

Does the halve with the head have any value to obtain what you desire to obtain?

Isn't it the complete quarter that has the value?

Likewise, faith without the corresponding act of obedience, all by itself, can not obtain the salvation, or healing it was meant to obtain for us.


Consider the woman with the flow of blood -

20 And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. 21 For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” 22 But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour. Matthew 9:20-22

The woman had faith in heart, but it wasn't until she acted by touching the hem of His garment that she was made well.
This act was apart from the works of the law, apart from working to receive wages, and apart from good deeds, but rather this act was the effort that obedience required.


What would have happen to this woman, had she only believed in her heart and never made the effort to reach out and touch the hem of His Garment? Nothing!


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Well your down to only quoting partial verses, out of context to prop up your false theology.

How predictable.
Quote too much and you get beat up for being too verbose, or straying out of context (or people simply don't read them).
Quote too little and it's still not good enough.

'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.' (Matthew 11:17 NASB)

Paul teaches a complete principle, believing faith, working together with the action of obedience.

Not for justification.
He said that happens all by itself when you believe in Christ's blood for the forgiveness of sin.

"to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness" (Romans 4:5 NASB)
"with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness" (Romans 10:10 NASB)

Only the person who believes in their heart AND confesses with their mouth, obtains a divine result.

Right......they obtain salvation.

But the justification required for salvation gets completed the moment you believe in your heart that God will forgive your sins through the blood of Christ:
"with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness" (Romans 10:10 NASB)

 

[stovebolts]

What is salvation? Saved from what?
Is it simply a future destination or does it have implications now?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

faith without the corresponding act of obedience, all by itself, can not obtain the salvation, or healing it was meant to obtain for us.

This is getting comical.
We both know a legitimate salvation experience has both justification and works. What you keep avoiding over and over and over is the issue of justification. The justification part of the 'justification & works = salvation' equation is completed entirely through faith in the heart, while we are still ungodly, not after we've completed some kind of righteous 'obedience' as you are claiming.

"to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness" (Romans 4:5 NASB)
"with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness" (Romans 10:10 NASB)

Justification will not obtain salvation IF the person who believed stops believing. Then their righteous 'obedience' will cease and they will have nothing to validate them as having the faith that makes a person righteous and qualified for the kingdom of heaven. Their debt of sin will be reinstated and they will be lost. Just as the servant in Matthew 18:23-35 was forgiven for free, but had his debt reinstated because of his contempt for the free gift he received. His behavior being the evidence of his contempt for the free gift. Just as his righteous behavior in reciprocating the free gift he received would have been the evidence of his thankfulness and appreciation and acceptance of the free gift he received.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What is salvation? Saved from what?
Is it simply a future destination or does it have implications now?

Well, since salvation starts the moment you are justified, I'd say it has immediate implications in this life. Like being saved, now, from the slavery of sin:

"6 ...our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin." (Romans 6:6 NASB)

 

[JLB]

This is getting comical.
We both know a legitimate salvation experience has both justification and works. What you keep avoiding over and over and over is the issue of justification. The justification part of the 'justification & works = salvation' equation is completed entirely through faith in the heart, while we are still ungodly, not after we've completed some kind of righteous 'obedience' as you are claiming.

"to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness" (Romans 4:5 NASB)
"with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness" (Romans 10:10 NASB)

Justification will not obtain salvation IF the person who believed stops believing. Then their righteous 'obedience' will cease and they will have nothing to validate them as having the faith that makes a person righteous and qualified for the kingdom of heaven. Their debt of sin will be reinstated and they will be lost. Just as the servant in Matthew 18:23-35 was forgiven for free, but had his debt reinstated because of his contempt for the free gift he received. His behavior being the evidence of his contempt for the free gift. Just as his righteous behavior in reciprocating the free gift he received would have been the evidence of his thankfulness and appreciation and acceptance of the free gift he received.

You are still stuck on thinking that obedience to the Gospel Message repent is work to receive wages, works of the law, good deeds....

Only obedience to the Gospel command repent, brings about salvation.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved...
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Romans 10:13,14,16

The Jews don't believe Jesus is Lord, therefore they refuse to call Him Lord.

The have not obeyed the Gospel, because they have not believed the Gospel....

Which is to -

Turn to Jesus and confess Him as Lord.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You are still stuck on thinking that obedience to the Gospel Message repent is work to receive wages, works of the law, good deeds....

Only obedience to the Gospel command repent, brings about salvation.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved...
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Romans 10:13,14,16

The Jews don't believe Jesus is Lord, therefore they refuse to call Him Lord.

The have not obeyed the Gospel.

Turn to Jesus and confess Him as Lord.


JLB

But what about justification?
You keep avoiding the issue.

 

[JLB]

But what about justification?
You keep avoiding the issue.

I have answered your question more than once.

Believing in your heart "all by itself" can not obtain a divine result, anymore than a half a quarter can obtain anything.

Paul is expressing two sides of a complete faith that obtains salvation... A salvation wrought by faith apart from works that receives wages, a salvation that is apart from the works of the law, or good works.

Believing together with obedience that produces a divine result.

As you have been shown from the clear context of God's word concerning Abraham believing God, and it being accredited to him as righteousness... Abraham first obeyed the Voice of God to get out of His country and go..., in order for God to make him a great nation.

First Abraham was required to obey in order to receive the promise.

Now the Lord had said to Abram:
“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
I will make you a great nation;
Genesis 12:1-2

Abraham believed God so Abraham obeyed God...by going to the land.

Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. Genesis15:5-6

Abraham OBEYED God and it was accredited to him as righteousness.

Believe = Obey

Your theology would have us believe that Abraham was accredited with righteousness by "only" believing in his heart and nothing more, while scripture teaches us... By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.
Hebrews 11:8


JLB

 

[dadof10]

I do remember now. We left off here, if I'm not mistaken...

Show me where faith in Christ for the forgiveness of any and all sin is in the law.

It's not, but faith in God is, if you define "works of the law" as everything written in the OT . Isn't obedient faith in the One True God what justified Abraham?...Twice?

This faith in Christ is what EVERYTHING ELSE is being contrasted with in Paul's discourse about "righteousness apart from works (of the law)" (Romans 4:6 NASB).

Your turn. Where is this taught anywhere in Scripture? I see faith being contrasted with works of the law, as the verse you posted says, but I don't see faith being contrasted with "everything else".

He's saying there is NOTHING else that you can do that can make you righteous in God's sight--only a complete and total forgiveness of sin, through Christ, by faith, that the law could not provide can make you righteous before God.

No so with James. He's including the law of Moses in what he says justifies a man. So obviously he's talking about another meaning and usage of justification. Obviously.

I didn't have a lot of time when I last responded, so I'll try to be more clear now. This is your main point here:
"He's [James] including the law of Moses in what he says justifies a man." If you can prove this contention, then Paul and James will be truly contradicting unless the word "justified" in James is "shown to be righteous". I agree that if this contention were proved, the word "Justified" would have to be changed to avoid contradiction, however it's not proved. The verses you posted from James do not fit into the category of "works of the law", just because they are mentioned in Lev. and Deut. If they did fit, faith in God would be a "work of the law" also, because it is taught in the Commandments. "I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have false gods before me", faith in the One True God and only in Him, would certainly not be considered a "work" but "visit orphans and widows in their distress" is? Your exegesis proves too much. The "works" Paul is contrasting with faith are properly the Jewish ceremonial law, specifically circumcision. The actions they perform that make a Jew a Jew. The acts that separate the Jews from the Gentiles. This was the first heresy within the Church (Acts 15) and Paul's letters were written in reaction to the teaching of these "Judaizers". James, on the other hand, is not even considering "works of the law", but only good deeds.

"If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?" (2:15-16 RSV)

Let me ask you a question, Jethro. We have been going over this topic for a while and I'll readily admit that if "works" in James and Paul mean the same thing, the only way to logically reconcile the two (that I know of) would be to interpret "justified" as "shown to be righteous". Will you admit that if the word "works" in Paul means "works of the law" and in James "good deeds", this would settle the "contradiction problem"?

If not then we must concede that James is directly contradicting Paul and saying doing good works does wash away past sins making us righteous in God's sight.

I know that's what James means by 'works'. I just pointed that out in my last post. But how does doing this make a person righteous? How does this cleanse past sin (even sin that is unforgivable under the law) such that a person stands legally freed from the guilt of all their sin? Obviously it doesn't. Only the blood of Christ, applied through faith, can do that. Nothing else can do what the blood of Christ can do to wipe away unrighteousness and replace it with Christ's righteousness.

Our views of righteousness are different and to keep from talking by each other, we should discuss whether justification is an ongoing process or a one time event. If it is a process, then it could be rightfully said that ongoing faith and ongoing growth in holiness are both necessary for ongoing justification and ongoing forgiveness of sins. If it is a one time event, then only one thing is needed, whether that be faith or works or whatever. This is why I keep bringing up Abraham and how he was justified (at least) twice. The question probably got lost in the three different threads on this same subject, so I'll ask again. Abraham had "obedient faith" in Gen. 12. Isn't obedient faith the only thing that justifies?

 

[stovebolts]

Well, since salvation starts the moment you are justified, I'd say it has immediate implications in this life. Like being saved, now, from the slavery of sin:

"6 ...our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin." (Romans 6:6 NASB)

You haven't stated what salvation is.... You only stated where you believe it starts.
If one is freed from sin, does he still sin? if one still sins, how is one free from sin?

 

[JLB]

How predictable.
Quote too much and you get beat up for being too verbose, or straying out of context (or people simply don't read them).
Quote too little and it's still not good enough.

No neither one.

You quoted a half of a verse out of context.

And you willfully misquoted Paul in Romans 4, knowing he is using "works" as a reference to earning wages.

No so with James. He's including the law of Moses in what he says justifies a man. So obviously he's talking about another meaning and usage of justification.

That's a good one!

Now James is teaching that we are justified by the law of Moses!

That's some pretty strong Koolaide your putting out there these days, Jethro.


JLB

 

[JLB]

But what about justification?
You keep avoiding the issue.

Paul is teaching the same principle that James teaches, concerning salvation by faith.

You are attempting to take a half of a verse, from a verse that teaches a whole principle, and separate it from the whole principle of faith, which is faith working together with the action of obedience, results in Salvation...

You are attempting to prove that the principle of "believing all by itself" with no corresponding action of obedience, results in the same thing as faith with obedience.


Just like a body without a spirit is incomplete and does not function, so also faith without the corresponding action of obedience is also incomplete and does not function.

Abraham was justified WHEN HE OBEYED...

Like we are justified WHEN we obey the Gospel, by turning to God with our confession of Jesus as Lord.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You haven't stated what salvation is....

I did. But, yes, I only shared what one part of it is.
Salvation is anything you get saved from. We don't get saved from everything until we enter into the kingdom. Salvation is an ongoing fulfilling of deliverance from the curse and an entering into the inheritance that will be completed at the end of times (1 Peter 1:4-5 NASB). Justification, on the other hand, is a one-time granting of legal righteousness that occurs when you believe in your heart (Romans 10:10 NASB). Only justified people will enter into the inheritance of the saints.

If one is freed from sin, does he still sin? if one still sins, how is one free from sin?

That's Paul's point.
If you and I have been liberated from the task master of sin why do we still obey it's demands? How is it that we are still acting like sin is still our task master?

"How shall we who died to sin still live in it?" (Romans 6:2 NASB)

He gives the answer in the very next verse, but let's 'save' that for another thread. (pun intended)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And you willfully misquoted Paul in Romans 4, knowing he is using "works" as a reference to earning wages.

That's exactly what he's talking about. Where did you misunderstand what I said about it?

Now James is teaching that we are justified by the law of Moses!

When you 'love your neighbor as yourself' (James 2:8 NASB/ Leviticus 19:18 NASB) you SHOW that you have the righteousness of Christ.

When you 'don't show favoritism' (James 2:3-4 NASB/ Leviticus 19:15 NASB) you SHOW that you have the righteousness of Christ.

When you 'take care of orphans and widows in their distress' (James 1:27 NASB/ Deuteronomy 14:28-29 NASB) you SHOW that you have the righteousness of Christ.

When you 'provide for the physical needs of a brother or sister' (James 2:15-16 NASB/ Deuteronomy 15:7-8 NASB) you SHOW that you have the righteousness of Christ.

"What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds (of the law--see above)? Can such faith save him? (James 2:14 NIV). Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says" (James 1:22 NASB). Therefore, get rid of all the moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent, and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you (James 1:21 NIV). Show me your faith without deeds, and I WILL SHOW YOU MY FAITH BY WHAT I DO (James 2:18 NIV emphasis mine). You see that a person is justified (shown to be righteous) by what he does and not by faith alone (James 2:24 NIV). Faith without deeds is dead. (James 2:26 NIV). If you really keep the royal law FOUND IN SCRIPTURE, 'Love your neighbor as yourself,' you are doing right (James 2:8 NIV). ​

So, since James is saying we are justified by the works of the law, while Paul says we are not justified by works of the law, we know that they have to be talking about two different definitions of the word justified. If we don't make that distinction then we need to admit to atheists and unbelievers that, yes, there is this glaring contradiction in the Bible which shows it is not the word of God, but the word of men.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You are attempting to prove that the principle of "believing all by itself" with no corresponding action of obedience, results in the same thing as faith with obedience.

"with no corresponding action of obedience". You're simply not listening.

I'm not separating works from faith (read my post above again). What I'm saying--and which you keep evading--is that the faith part of 'faith and works' is what does the actual justifying as in MAKING a person legally righteous:

"for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness..." (Romans 10:10 NASB)

The works following are what does the justifying as in SHOWING a person to have that legal declaration of righteousness by faith all by itself, and which then results in salvation:

"...and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. " (Romans 10:10 NASB)

It is upon the SHOWING of ones' righteousness that God judges one as having faith and, therefore, eligible to enter into the kingdom on the Day of Wrath.