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I'm Sick.....Abortion?

im pro-life, but i think its best to leave abortion legal, regulated, etc. fallen world...banning the procedure just means that women w/ resources will go where they can to get it done, legally...

and women without resources end up dead, in back alleys.

i do also think anti-poverty programs could help reduce the # of abortions.

i dunno. i just don't see how gov't trying to clamp down will help, at all.
 
Christ_empowered said:
im pro-life, but i think its best to leave abortion legal, regulated, etc. fallen world...banning the procedure just means that women w/ resources will go where they can to get it done, legally...

and women without resources end up dead, in back alleys.

i do also think anti-poverty programs could help reduce the # of abortions.

i dunno. i just don't see how gov't trying to clamp down will help, at all.
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Some of the information I found indicates that when comparing countries with strict anti-abortion laws to countries where abortion is legal, the percentage of pregnancies ending in abortion are about the same. Unfortunately, where abortion is not legal there is a higher incidence of mortality due to unsanitary conditions or self abortion.

It appears the law will not legislate morality so it solves nothing except maybe to give us a clearer conscience knowing that we forbade it.

How do we change attitudes?
 
I think Jesus is ultimately the only real 'answer' to this and other hot button issues, especially now...

with secularization and the march of what I think it was Pope John Paul II called the "Culture of Death"--celebration of divorce, abortion, sexual immorality, and materialism-Christ, and Him Crucified offers -real- change in an increasingly sick culture.

aside from that--and this is coming from me, someone who leans left on most things--I think anti-poverty initiatives are probably the best worldly solution. I've read that some places are looking at UBI (universal basic income), and that might (?) have a positive impact, should UBI come to the US.
 
Christ_empowered said:
i dunno. i just don't see how gov't trying to clamp down will help, at all.
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It probably won't solve the situation all by itself. Countries where abortion is illegal have about the same abortion rates.

However, that is not the only goal. Birth control has led to quite a bit of sex outside of marriage. The theory is that eliminating all types of birth control (not just abortion) will encourage abstinence. Except for married couples that want to have children.

Social programs also require additional taxes on the rich, and the rich want another tax trim instead. This limits the available options to trying to encourage abstinence with penalties.

Abstinence is best achieved by training up children to fear the Lord, but this can't be done in the public school system. We would need an honest dollar so that 1 salary could again support a family. Then one parent could stay home to train up their children to fear the Lord. However bank lobbyists are powerful, so this is unlikely. So children are trained up by unbelievers to be unbelievers, with the goal of penalizing them into abstinence via court decisions. Adopting abstinence will then eliminate the need for abortion.

For this to work, all types of birth control have to be eliminated, along with close monitoring of all women to make sure that they don't self abort. Self aborting and back alley aborting are common in countries where medical abortion is illegal. It will be somewhat similar to the war on drugs in scope, with millions of self aborting women imprisoned the way millions of drug users are imprisoned today.
 
Christ_empowered said:
that sounds...awful, especially for women.
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The rejoinder is that abortion is even more awful for babies, so almost anything is justified to eliminate it. Encouraging abstinence is also a worthy goal all by itself, so two birds with one court decision. However, people will still be unbelievers with this strategy, so they are still doomed. The better way would be to train children up to respect the Lord. This would have the added benefit of people treating others with agape, instead of being fearfully abstinent but otherwise evil. An honest dollar would help give Joe and Jane average the purchasing power to train their children properly. Along with taming favors for lobbyists.
 
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Christ_empowered said:
im pro-life, but i think its best to leave abortion legal, regulated, etc. fallen world...banning the procedure just means that women w/ resources will go where they can to get it done, legally...

and women without resources end up dead, in back alleys.

i do also think anti-poverty programs could help reduce the # of abortions.

i dunno. i just don't see how gov't trying to clamp down will help, at all.
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I actually agree with you here on this... somewhat.
 
Michael74 said:
Abstinence is best achieved by training up children to fear the Lord, but this can't be done in the public school system.
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This past Tuesday during our morning men's prayer breakfast the topic came up about prayer being removed from our public school system. One point I brought up is that it is not our school system's responsibility to teach Christianity. It is ours as parents and we have been failing in that area.

Even in our churches I see a failure. Parents rely on the church to do all the work. At our church, some drop their kids off on Sunday morning to attend Sunday School but most do not stay to attend the adult program. What message does this send to the kids? And then, after confirmation, about half of the kids stop coming altogether. Parents don't really care that much and the kids are getting the same message.

I know I failed. While I did require our daughters to attend Sunday School and since I was the high school leader I was always there with them. I required they continue attending until they were adults and then I encouraged them to attend the adult program. Unfortunately, my wife does not take Bible study seriously so she doesn't attend and our daughters follow her lead in that regard. Where I failed is in our daily lives. I did not openly include daily devotions with our kids or other Bible study even though I do regularly on my own. So I failed to teach them the importance of daily time with God and I regret it now that they are grown.

We have a Biblical responsibility as parents but we don't take it seriously as we should.

6 “And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. 7 You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up."
Deuteronomy 6:6-7 NKJV
 
WIP said:
This past Tuesday during our morning men's prayer breakfast the topic came up about prayer being removed from our public school system. One point I brought up is that it is not our school system's responsibility to teach Christianity. It is ours as parents and we have been failing in that area.

Even in our churches I see a failure. Parents rely on the church to do all the work. At our church, some drop their kids off on Sunday morning to attend Sunday School but most do not stay to attend the adult program. What message does this send to the kids? And then, after confirmation, about half of the kids stop coming altogether. Parents don't really care that much and the kids are getting the same message.

I know I failed. While I did require our daughters to attend Sunday School and since I was the high school leader I was always there with them. I required they continue attending until they were adults and then I encouraged them to attend the adult program. Unfortunately, my wife does not take Bible study seriously so she doesn't attend and our daughters follow her lead in that regard. Where I failed is in our daily lives. I did not openly include daily devotions with our kids or other Bible study even though I do regularly on my own. So I failed to teach them the importance of daily time with God and I regret it now that they are grown.

We have a Biblical responsibility as parents but we don't take it seriously as we should.

6 “And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. 7 You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up."
Deuteronomy 6:6-7 NKJV
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You know, I mean this out of love so don't take this the wrong way,.. but even though the Bible says that we should train up our children in the way that they should go,.. sometimes we also have to step back and make their own choices. Will mistakes be made? Most definitely, but we just got to hope and pray that they will learn from them and make the right decisions and that if they are lost they will come to know Christ because that's all we can really do as parents. We can only sow the seeds, the rest is up to them and God.
 
i think you may be coming down to hard on yourself, WIP. just my impression.

but i agree with your point that it isn't the school's responsibility to teach Christianity or (especially now, in a "post-Christian" world) Christian morality. my problem is...

parents are working harder just to get by, so there's a real time shortage. the kids are living in a media saturated world that's drilling anti-Christian concepts+ideology into their minds. the schools are increasingly teaching to test, 0 tolerance zones...

meanwhile, bonds in the community have been decimated, the extended family is a lot less powerful, and although the US divorce rate for 1st marriages has stabilized, we're apparently a 'stable, high divorce rate culture..." which I think is social sciences speak for divorce is simply an accepted part of the life cycle, now.

if college is on the menu, most of those are being taken over by this odd sort of un-thinking, sterilized, watered down left wing ideology that, again, is decidedly anti-traditional Christianity and Christian morality....

and so...I'm glad I don't have kids. LOL. the outlook for any sort of reflection, meaningful discipling...looks kind of bleak, and I don't think its all about personal responsibility, personal failures or success, etc. it seems to be deeply rooted in "the way the works" in the 21st century. -sigh-
 
Christ_empowered said:
i think you may be coming down to hard on yourself, WIP. just my impression.

but i agree with your point that it isn't the school's responsibility to teach Christianity or (especially now, in a "post-Christian" world) Christian morality. my problem is...

parents are working harder just to get by, so there's a real time shortage. the kids are living in a media saturated world that's drilling anti-Christian concepts+ideology into their minds. the schools are increasingly teaching to test, 0 tolerance zones...

meanwhile, bonds in the community have been decimated, the extended family is a lot less powerful, and although the US divorce rate for 1st marriages has stabilized, we're apparently a 'stable, high divorce rate culture..." which I think is social sciences speak for divorce is simply an accepted part of the life cycle, now.

if college is on the menu, most of those are being taken over by this odd sort of un-thinking, sterilized, watered down left wing ideology that, again, is decidedly anti-traditional Christianity and Christian morality....

and so...I'm glad I don't have kids. LOL. the outlook for any sort of reflection, meaningful discipling...looks kind of bleak, and I don't think its all about personal responsibility, personal failures or success, etc. it seems to be deeply rooted in "the way the works" in the 21st century. -sigh-
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I think you and others may be thinking that all children in America should be home schooled
Of course the school system and the churches have a responsiblity to our children
they each have control of them for a while each day
as well as baby sitters
we need to choose what is best for our children
that is not being done most everywhere
Saying I'm sorry for my mistakes is the first step
But somewhere along the line, someone has to do something about it
It's mostly between the parents and the children
the right schools, the right church, the right baby sitter, etc...
no, it's not an easy task, but if you do it right from the beginning, it's a whole lot easier
 
HeIsRisen2018 said:
You know, I mean this out of love so don't take this the wrong way,.. but even though the Bible says that we should train up our children in the way that they should go,.. sometimes we also have to step back and make their own choices. Will mistakes be made? Most definitely, but we just got to hope and pray that they will learn from them and make the right decisions and that if they are lost they will come to know Christ because that's all we can really do as parents. We can only sow the seeds, the rest is up to them and God.
Click to expand...




Oh and I just wanted to add to this that this is coming from a nonparent.
 
Christ_empowered said:
i think you may be coming down to hard on yourself, WIP. just my impression.

but i agree with your point that it isn't the school's responsibility to teach Christianity or (especially now, in a "post-Christian" world) Christian morality. my problem is...

parents are working harder just to get by, so there's a real time shortage. the kids are living in a media saturated world that's drilling anti-Christian concepts+ideology into their minds. the schools are increasingly teaching to test, 0 tolerance zones...

meanwhile, bonds in the community have been decimated, the extended family is a lot less powerful, and although the US divorce rate for 1st marriages has stabilized, we're apparently a 'stable, high divorce rate culture..." which I think is social sciences speak for divorce is simply an accepted part of the life cycle, now.

if college is on the menu, most of those are being taken over by this odd sort of un-thinking, sterilized, watered down left wing ideology that, again, is decidedly anti-traditional Christianity and Christian morality....

and so...I'm glad I don't have kids. LOL. the outlook for any sort of reflection, meaningful discipling...looks kind of bleak, and I don't think its all about personal responsibility, personal failures or success, etc. it seems to be deeply rooted in "the way the works" in the 21st century. -sigh-
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The time shortage you speak of, in my opinion, is a cop-out. I personally believe that the average family (naturally there are exceptions) requires multiple incomes because they are working hard to satisfy personal desires more than basic needs. We have come to expect a particular lifestyle in this country that is far above that of just basic needs and to achieve that lifestyle we work multiple jobs and run up credit unnecessarily so we can live the high life. Yours truly is as guilty as the next.
 
WIP said:
The time shortage you speak of, in my opinion, is a cop-out. I personally believe that the average family (naturally there are exceptions) requires multiple incomes because they are working hard to satisfy personal desires more than basic needs. We have come to expect a particular lifestyle in this country that is far above that of just basic needs and to achieve that lifestyle we work multiple jobs and run up credit unnecessarily so we can live the high life. Yours truly is as guilty as the next.
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I think we are all guilty of that to some degree.
We may consider us poor but the rest of the world sees us as rich, and we are.
Here's a thought (general reference, not pointed at anyone).
Live on your basic needs and then bank the rest of your money.
You'll find you are very rich in no time.
You don't really care about money.
It's what money can buy that you want.
If you cared about having money, then you would save it, regardless of income.
 
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