Immortality

[serapha]

Evidence against the soul:

note: I will only debate with those that will answer to the evidence.

:If the soul is immortal, and furthermore, non-matter, then there is no way it can exist, or be conscious. The soul is person. Existance is dependant on the ability to exist, and have experiances of any kind. We know that there is nothing that is conscious, and has experiances if it does not have a brain. A rock is not aware, it does not experiance or have memories, it does not live. etc. A soul that can exist without a brain or other device, cannot exist. It has no way of recording experiances, it cannot store memories, it cannot be alive, it cannot be conscious.

This one of the absolute best arguements against the false belief of a supernatural, immortal soul.

_____

It has been concluded that thoughts, and consciousness exist through "brain waves". Without these, there is no thought, nor consciousness. When these things stop functioning, the only reasonable conclusion is that the 'mind', 'soul', etc, has stopped, it doesn't function anymore, it doesn't exist.

_____

If there are supernatural, souls of people that exist as conscious beings, that we are never contacted by them. There is no comunication between us and them. There are people that claim that there are ghosts of people, however, these are most likely demons, and not peoples souls trying to contact us from heaven.

_____

God's greatest creation. The human brain. Such a complex, amazingly wonderful invention. Certainly God's greates physical creation. Formed from non-living matter, dust, into a supercomputer that allows for a soul's(person's) existance. What a waste is would be if God were to not use this invention anymore, after people die. If God reserects those who are saved, and gives them a body, He would most certainly give them a brain in which to exist. To not do so would be jst like an inventor coming up with a wonderful creation, but throwing it away, never to use it again.

_____

The spirit. The force that is life. Animation, homeostasis, energy to be alive, whatever it is, we know that the combination of our spirit and our body form us, a living soul. When we die, it leaves our body, our body is dead matter, and we are a dead soul. We don't exist conscious, and alive. We are dead. A dead soul.

Hi there!


I am not going to address each point line-by-line right now, because I don't have time.... but I want to express some thoughts on particular statements... and I will be back online later today.

A soul that can exist without a brain or other device, cannot exist. It has no way of recording experiances, it cannot store memories, it cannot be alive, it cannot be conscious.

I want to talk about "spirits" for a moment... for they certainly do exist without a "brain", they certainly do have conscientiousness, and they move about freely in the spiritual realm, and at times, within human bodies. The "spirits" I am referencing are the angels which are "fallen" from heaven, the demons.

You are looking for "evidences" of the soul, and you reject the "supernatural" and immortal aspect of the soul. Demons are just as supernatural and just as immortal as the human soul. God creates in dimensions that we, as humans in finite minds, cannot begin to comprehend. The soul, is one of those concepts. But, certainly, if demons and angels are in a supernatural and immortal form, then for humans, which are superior to the angels, the soul of man would/could surpass the supernatural and immortal understanding of angels/demons.

A soul that can exist without a brain or other device, cannot exist. It has no way of recording experiances, it cannot store memories, it cannot be alive, it cannot be conscious.

Have you ever talked to anyone who has died, and seen the tunnel of light, or in opposing, seen the darkness and gnashing of teeth of hell?

You know, those who have "come back" or been "brought back". What they describe, is an experience in the spiritual realm that is separate from the brain, and that experiences included "recording experiences, stored memories, living and basking in the love of God's glory."

Now, I don't want to get side-tracked into all of the "spiritualism" and NDE's and "soul travel", for that is not of God, but of submission to demonic spirits. If you want to go "there", open a new thread.

It has been concluded that thoughts, and consciousness exist through "brain waves". Without these, there is no thought, nor consciousness. When these things stop functioning, the only reasonable conclusion is that the 'mind', 'soul', etc, has stopped, it doesn't function anymore, it doesn't exist.

Thoughts and consciousness exist in brain waves, but the sould is not limited to "thoughts and consciousness". Perhaps this discussion needs to focus on whether the "mind" and the "brain" are the same, for your statement uses in one sentence, "brain" and "mind" as though they are the same word, context, etc.

The brain and the mind are not the same. I might lose my mind, but I still have would have a brain. So, please, either focus on "the mind" or the "brain" but don't interchange the thoughts.


I have to go now...


~serapha~

 

[Free]

Featherbop,

Once again ignoring Scripture...

note: I will only debate with those that will answer to the evidence.

Then give some evidence for us to consider. All your "evidence" so far is just your own speculation and unsupported assumptions based entirely on a materialistic view of nature.

Here is a quote from you in the other thread where this discussion started:

Now, if you want to show me some evidence of eternal hell, give me some scrpitures to read, and I will research it.

If you want to give me evidence of an immortal, supernatural soul, give me some physical, scientific, something that shows it ot be true. You can't use the bible to convince me.

On one hand, you want evidence from the Bible for an eternal hell and on the other hand, you won't accept Scripture that shows that we have immortal souls. Apparently, you don't believe in the authority of the Word of God and like to pick and choose which portions of Scripture you want to believe. It isn't going to matter what anyone shows in Scripture because if it doesn't fit your preconceived beliefs, you simply discard it.

Quit side-stepping the verses I posted, unless of course you don't believe in the authority of Scripture. If that's the case then any discussion with you of the supernatural is completely pointless.

 

[Featherbop]

HI there!

I have a lot of time. I will be awaiting your response.

Okay, you set your rules, that you are only replying to those with evidences...


Here's my rule... you post that "snotty" comment one more time, and this conversation is over.


If you want respect, then give it.... without scarcasm.


I don't have a lot of time, I have a life that requires that I partipate in it.


Are we coming to an understanding?


~serapha~



Address issues.....

I was not intending to make a "snotty" comment, and I certainly did not try to make it appear "snotty". I am sorry that you thought I was being rude. I was not being sarcastic intentionally. No, I do not understand you at all. What is your point?

 

[Featherbop]

Evidence against the soul:

note: I will only debate with those that will answer to the evidence.

:If the soul is immortal, and furthermore, non-matter, then there is no way it can exist, or be conscious. The soul is person. Existance is dependant on the ability to exist, and have experiances of any kind. We know that there is nothing that is conscious, and has experiances if it does not have a brain. A rock is not aware, it does not experiance or have memories, it does not live. etc. A soul that can exist without a brain or other device, cannot exist. It has no way of recording experiances, it cannot store memories, it cannot be alive, it cannot be conscious.

This one of the absolute best arguements against the false belief of a supernatural, immortal soul.

_____

It has been concluded that thoughts, and consciousness exist through "brain waves". Without these, there is no thought, nor consciousness. When these things stop functioning, the only reasonable conclusion is that the 'mind', 'soul', etc, has stopped, it doesn't function anymore, it doesn't exist.

_____

If there are supernatural, souls of people that exist as conscious beings, that we are never contacted by them. There is no comunication between us and them. There are people that claim that there are ghosts of people, however, these are most likely demons, and not peoples souls trying to contact us from heaven.

_____

God's greatest creation. The human brain. Such a complex, amazingly wonderful invention. Certainly God's greates physical creation. Formed from non-living matter, dust, into a supercomputer that allows for a soul's(person's) existance. What a waste is would be if God were to not use this invention anymore, after people die. If God reserects those who are saved, and gives them a body, He would most certainly give them a brain in which to exist. To not do so would be jst like an inventor coming up with a wonderful creation, but throwing it away, never to use it again.

_____

The spirit. The force that is life. Animation, homeostasis, energy to be alive, whatever it is, we know that the combination of our spirit and our body form us, a living soul. When we die, it leaves our body, our body is dead matter, and we are a dead soul. We don't exist conscious, and alive. We are dead. A dead soul.

Hi there!


I am not going to address each point line-by-line right now, because I don't have time.... but I want to express some thoughts on particular statements... and I will be back online later today.

A soul that can exist without a brain or other device, cannot exist. It has no way of recording experiances, it cannot store memories, it cannot be alive, it cannot be conscious.

I want to talk about "spirits" for a moment... for they certainly do exist without a "brain", they certainly do have conscientiousness, and they move about freely in the spiritual realm, and at times, within human bodies. The "spirits" I am referencing are the angels which are "fallen" from heaven, the demons.

You are looking for "evidences" of the soul, and you reject the "supernatural" and immortal aspect of the soul. Demons are just as supernatural and just as immortal as the human soul. God creates in dimensions that we, as humans in finite minds, cannot begin to comprehend. The soul, is one of those concepts. But, certainly, if demons and angels are in a supernatural and immortal form, then for humans, which are superior to the angels, the soul of man would/could surpass the supernatural and immortal understanding of angels/demons.


[quote:98604]A soul that can exist without a brain or other device, cannot exist. It has no way of recording experiances, it cannot store memories, it cannot be alive, it cannot be conscious.

Have you ever talked to anyone who has died, and seen the tunnel of light, or in opposing, seen the darkness and gnashing of teeth of hell?

You know, those who have "come back" or been "brought back". What they describe, is an experience in the spiritual realm that is separate from the brain, and that experiences included "recording experiences, stored memories, living and basking in the love of God's glory."

Now, I don't want to get side-tracked into all of the "spiritualism" and NDE's and "soul travel", for that is not of God, but of submission to demonic spirits. If you want to go "there", open a new thread.

It has been concluded that thoughts, and consciousness exist through "brain waves". Without these, there is no thought, nor consciousness. When these things stop functioning, the only reasonable conclusion is that the 'mind', 'soul', etc, has stopped, it doesn't function anymore, it doesn't exist.

Thoughts and consciousness exist in brain waves, but the sould is not limited to "thoughts and consciousness". Perhaps this discussion needs to focus on whether the "mind" and the "brain" are the same, for your statement uses in one sentence, "brain" and "mind" as though they are the same word, context, etc.

The brain and the mind are not the same. I might lose my mind, but I still have would have a brain. So, please, either focus on "the mind" or the "brain" but don't interchange the thoughts.


I have to go now...


~serapha~[/quote:98604]

Some things are supernatural, spirits are. God is a spirit. I suppose angels(including demons(fallen angels))are as well, but have bodys also(maybe shapeshifters, yes?)

God is not human, and I do not think it wise to compare the master of the universe with us, pitiful creatures.

I'm looking for evidences mainly for an immortal soul(like a ghost, perhaps?) I believe in human souls, I just have a view that agrees with available evidence. By supernatual, soul, I mean a soul that survives mortality and death. I am not a materialist, but matter does play a very significasnt role in this subject. So, let me retract a statement to break down on confusion. I believe in a supernatural soul, but not as most people believe it to be. Supernatural means different to many people.

I do not believe the mind(soul) is just brain or brain waves, however, it is dependant for life, and its functioning existance upon it. A brain cannot neccesarily equal soul, because a dead or deteriorated brain does not contain that person that inhabited it. The soul being the brain itself would not work(obvious reasons) I do not believe this either, if I said that I did, I was mistaken. sorry.

I don't think we have much more debate left. I agree with you, in that the brain and mind(soul) are not the same thing. Amen to that.

 

[Featherbop]

Featherbop,

Once again ignoring Scripture...

note: I will only debate with those that will answer to the evidence.

Then give some evidence for us to consider. All your "evidence" so far is just your own speculation and unsupported assumptions based entirely on a materialistic view of nature.

Here is a quote from you in the other thread where this discussion started:

[quote:5a3c5]Now, if you want to show me some evidence of eternal hell, give me some scrpitures to read, and I will research it.

If you want to give me evidence of an immortal, supernatural soul, give me some physical, scientific, something that shows it ot be true. You can't use the bible to convince me.

On one hand, you want evidence from the Bible for an eternal hell and on the other hand, you won't accept Scripture that shows that we have immortal souls. Apparently, you don't believe in the authority of the Word of God and like to pick and choose which portions of Scripture you want to believe. It isn't going to matter what anyone shows in Scripture because if it doesn't fit your preconceived beliefs, you simply discard it.

Quit side-stepping the verses I posted, unless of course you don't believe in the authority of Scripture. If that's the case then any discussion with you of the supernatural is completely pointless.[/quote:5a3c5]

Wow, so wrong in so many ways, let me make a list:

1:I have given you evidence. You won't take it.

2:I am not a materilist, I do not have a materialistic view of things. You are mistaken.

3:When I put all of the Bible together, and not just pick pieces out, I get that there is no human immortal soul, no eternal torment(hell).

4:I do believe that the Bible is God's word. I just understand how to use it better than you. Its all about purpose.

5:I do not have preconceived beliefs. I have changed my beliefs on a variety of subjects many, many times. I have to learn more, and change them with evidence from the Bible, science discoveries, and of course, physical evidence, and personal experiances and revelations of truths.

6:I am not side stepping verse. You haven't given me anything sufficient. You take one or two verse to support your own beliefs.

7:I do beleive in the authority of the Bible. Absolutely.

8:Disscussing the supernatural with me is far from pointless. I believe in supernatural things, (God, angels, demons,etc), but there is evidence for those things, and it is logical also.

9:I am very open minded, and wish to b shown wrong if I am. I listen to all evidence, and consider every possiblitiy. I am not afraid to confront what disagrees with me. I am not afraid to change my veiws if I ma wrong.

 

[K-O Stradivarius]

The soul has to be something immortal AND non-matter. If it were matter it would die along with the body. Also, God does not save the body. The body will be destroyed eventually. It will return to the dust just as the Bible says. Therefore, there has to be something non-physical and immortal to save. That would be the soul.

 

[Featherbop]

The soul has to be something immortal AND non-matter. If it were matter it would die along with the body. Also, God does not save the body. The body will be destroyed eventually. It will return to the dust just as the Bible says. Therefore, there has to be something non-physical and immortal to save. That would be the soul.

The soul being able to exist as a purely non-matter(with no matter parts to it) would not work. It would have no way to store memories, have intellect, experiance anything. That is a dead soul. God will resurrect.

The soul being immortal would make us as God. Can God not destroy it then?

 

[Free]

Featherbop,

God will resurrect.

On what basis do you say that "God will resurrect?" What evidence do you have for that?

 

[Featherbop]

Featherbop,

God will resurrect.

On what basis do you say that "God will resurrect?" What evidence do you have for that?

I see what you mean, but one needs evidence other than the Bible, and the other, the Bible is the only needed evidence authority. Its all about what the bible's purpose is. :wink:

 

[serapha]

God is not human, and I do not think it wise to compare the master of the universe with us, pitiful creatures.{/quote]



"I didn't"



~serapha~

 

[nikolai_42]

nikolai_42

May I ask what you think it means to die? Is it to stop existing alltogether, or is it a state of existance?

I believe that death, the second death is the eternal separation from God. Not none existance.

Quath

You totally have the wrong view point all together there guy. Man are off>>> You are the problem not the concept but you lack of ability to grasp it, but then again you are unregerate you do not have what it takes to know the things of God.

Hi Henry,

Sorry to be so long in getting back to you. For some reason the email message that tells me when someone posts wasn't getting through. Anyway, in answer to your question, I believe in a man composed, more or less, of body, soul and spirit. It isn't really a materialistic thing, but these are the components that go together to make up a man. The spirit of man, as Ecclesiastes says, returns to God who gave it upon death. The soul of a man may die. Ezekiel and Isaiah both testify to this directly. Even Paul speaks of men being saved only in spirit:

To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus
I Cor 5:5

This deals with a "believer". And I see the soul and spirit as two separate (but VERY close) things in man:

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit
I Corinthians 15:45

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I Thessalonians 5:23

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Hebrews 4:12

I don't see it like a recipe : throw in 1 soul, 1 spirit and 1 body, but I see it sort of as being difficult to separate parts of a single whole.

Now, as to the second death...I can't see anything being ABLE to subsist totally apart from God, so I believe that is something closer to annihilation than anything. I can't pretend to understand it all, but I think it has to do with irrevocable loss. It says in Revelation that there are those saints who won't be hurt of the Second Death. It also says that the second death has no power over those who have part in the first resurrection. Paul speaks of degrees of resurrection - and he speaks of attaining to a better resurrection, so I have to believe there are shades and greys of that. Well, if the first resurrection is one type of resurrection, then I also have to believe that those not in the first resurrection suffer varying degrees of consequence from the second death. In other words, one may possibly (as a suggestion only!) lose only body but have their soul and spirit saved. Or one may lose body and soul and have their spirit saved. I can't say I understand that, either, but that's what I see scripture saying.

As for what death is, I believe it is death. There may be soul sleep (I see evidence for that) and there may be total annihilation. I just don't know the degrees. I only see that man is not a simple being and so the Lord's judgements on Him cannot be simple, either/or judgements. It wouldn't be just or merciful (and the Lord is both!).

A thought...Jesus said that whosoever believes on Him would NEVER die. In His words...believest thou this?

 

[Henry]

K-O Stradivarius

I agree with you except for the thing that God does not save the body, in actuallity he does saved the body that is what resurection is all about, but at that time our bodies will be glorified and made perfect.

God is redeeming ALL of creation, not just our human souls.

Anyways, it is nice to know that you are have faith in the redemption by God.

Oh, and by the way what this feather guy is saying is not what I am saying, PLEASE do not confuse me with him.

In revelations we read that the souls of the ones that where killed for Jesus, cryed out to God as they sat under his thrown, all the opinions of this feather guy mean very little, certainly when the bible says other wise.
 
Does anyone else get the feeling of a spiritual arrogence here? I think the bible says, that a man who thinks himself wise will be shown to be a fool. Or somethig like that.

 

[nikolai_42]

The soul has to be something immortal AND non-matter. If it were matter it would die along with the body. Also, God does not save the body. The body will be destroyed eventually. It will return to the dust just as the Bible says. Therefore, there has to be something non-physical and immortal to save. That would be the soul.

Hi Strad,

What do you believe Paul is saying here:

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I Thess 5:23

Did Paul believe here that the Lord would return before they died bodily?

 

[Featherbop]

K-O Stradivarius

I agree with you except for the thing that God does not save the body, in actuallity he does saved the body that is what resurection is all about, but at that time our bodies will be glorified and made perfect.

God is redeeming ALL of creation, not just our human souls.

Anyways, it is nice to know that you are have faith in the redemption by God.

Oh, and by the way what this feather guy is saying is not what I am saying, PLEASE do not confuse me with him.

In revelations we read that the souls of the ones that where killed for Jesus, cryed out to God as they sat under his thrown, all the opinions of this feather guy mean very little, certainly when the bible says other wise.
 
Does anyone else get the feeling of a spiritual arrogence here? I think the bible says, that a man who thinks himself wise will be shown to be a fool. Or somethig like that.

Can't beat me by debate, and show me inncorrect, so you need to make me seem to be the bad guy. hahaha

However, I do agree with you in that I also hope I am not confused with you.

 

[Henry]

Featherbop

You are a very arrogent person, I am not worried about you, and I am not trying to beat you. I do not have to make you look like a bad guy, you sir will do that all by yourself.

 

[Vic C.]

:x :roll:

 

[Free]

Featherbop,

God will resurrect.

On what basis do you say that "God will resurrect?" What evidence do you have for that?

I see what you mean, but one needs evidence other than the Bible, and the other, the Bible is the only needed evidence authority. Its all about what the bible's purpose is. :wink:

Well, you seem to believe that God will resurrect people based on what the Bible says, yet you don't believe the Bible when it shows that we have eternal souls. On what basis do you reject the one and accept the other?

 

[Henry]

free

Haven't you been listinening?

THE EVIDENCE LOL Still waiting for this evidence, it must be whoper since he choices to reject the very word of God for it.

By the way, my opinion is that we all press him on this micheal issue, Jesus asked who do they say that I am, and no one said micheal.

Anyways, I think the only way to crack this nut, is to show him that the bible does not even come close to teaching that Jesus is micheal and if he realizes that this is heresy then perhaps he will realize the other stuff is as well.

But hey you are the man, you do what you think is best. I'll just sit and wait for some oneness folks to pop in.

 

[Featherbop]

Featherbop,

God will resurrect.

On what basis do you say that "God will resurrect?" What evidence do you have for that?

I see what you mean, but one needs evidence other than the Bible, and the other, the Bible is the only needed evidence authority. Its all about what the bible's purpose is. :wink:

Well, you seem to believe that God will resurrect people based on what the Bible says, yet you don't believe the Bible when it shows that we have eternal souls. On what basis do you reject the one and accept the other?

First of all, when all the Bibles information is put together, it doesn't teach an immortal soul.

And also, The ressurection is something the Bible is the only authority for, and is the only way of acheiving knowledge of it. It also teaches this as true.

I reject one and accept the other becuase one is true, and the other false.(short answer).

 

[willow the wip]

the bible says the heart of man is despritly evil and wicked there are non-richous no not one,

No man can give an answer before a Holy God.