Impossible Questions For Trinitarians

[jgredline]

Instead what you have are know cults and cultish teachers like
Benny Hinn,
Joyce Meyer
T.D. Jakes
Kenneth Copeland
Paula White and much of TBN
And this list go go on for a little bit. Maybe a hundred or so. Point is you may not even be aware that your theology is on par with these cults, but it is

When did these guys fall to the level of being a cult? Did you read something about this in the Pentecostal Evangel? I would like to know where you got this information.

Benny Hinn is nothing more than just another pentecostal preacher. If he wasn't so full of his own self importance, it wouldn't be so revolting to watch him on the telly.

Joyce Meyers; what can I say? She is a woman preacher. That says a lot. Read into that what you want.

T.D. Jakes; who cares?

Kenneth Copeland may be a lot of things, but he isn't a cult preacher. He is probably my favorite out of the bunch you listed. If he was a Universalist, he would be the perfect example of what a preacher should be. And he is from Arkansas. That makes him even better.

TBN is just another gate to the city of Babylon. As a a matter of fact, without the life-giving presence of the Holy Spirit, all of Christianity will lead you back to the bondage of Babylon, where Nebuchadnezzar still rules with an iron fist.

Well where to begin with Benny Hinn. Lets start here
http://www.christianresearchservice.com/Benny_Hinn.htm
Read and weap. There is no way to defend him.

As for Keneth Copeland and his coocoo claims start here
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/kcopeland.html

If you need more let me know

 

[Solo]

Jesus is not an angel, and Jesus was not created. Jesus created all things in heaven and earth including ALL angels. To understand the three persons of the Godhead is not difficult, but it does take the same faith that it takes to know God. The Jews had Jesus killed because they understood that he was proclaiming to be God, but they did not believe, just as you and the non-trinitarians on this board. I know many, many who did not believe that Jesus is God until after they were born of God. As soon as they were born again, the fact that Jesus is God became resident in their being; including mine.

Jesus is the Son of God, the Son of Man, Immanuel; God with us; Almighty God, the First and the Last, the Everlasting Father, etc.

Explain to me how you could not understand the simplicity of this verse claiming that Jesus is the Everlasting Father:

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

Until one is born of God, one cannot know or understand God.

You have succeeded in confusing the issue of what Jesus was saying, "not by my will but by thy will," with prophecy. You then imply those who do not understand this particular prophecy as you do cannot be born of God.

Well let's put this "reasoning" to the test when Jesus himself confessed that he did not know two things. The first being the hour of his return and the second being who would sit on his right side and who would sit on his left in the Kingdom. So does this "lack of understanding" remove him from being begotten of God?

No it does not. So don't recite prophecy and claim your "reasoning" of it determines that Jesus IS God and anyone who does not understand this are not born of God. For it is not by human decision those that are born of God. So kindly remove your human decision away from the revelation of God.

I will come back to prophecy later, but first I wanted to share a revelation that Jesus spake unto his disciples when he told them of Christ's Coming. After he told them of all the signs yet to be fulfilled he finished with; "For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the LORD." MATTHEW 23:39

In the name of the Lord...blessed is he that cometh in it...Jesus came in it, teaching in it but returning all glory to the Father. So let us reveiw again ISAIAH 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Would Jesus not be called all these things if he did come in THE NAME of the Lord, as he declared all his ministry, miracles and prophecy in? This government is yet to be fulfilled also which is indicated another verse down. ISAIAH 9:7 "Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgement and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this."

Who will perform this - the son not yet given; the child not born; or the zeal of the LORD of hosts? The government and the names thereof will be given to this son but it was "given" of the Lord of hosts...and that is whom Jesus taught us to recognise. Not Jesus' goodness but the one who sent him. If you teach the gospel of Jesus then you will direct servants to the master; Jesus also respected the authority of.

I'll site another prophecy in ZECHARIAH 3:6-8. "And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by. Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH."

Whose servant? The LORD of hosts and the servant is his branch. So let us return to the scripture where Jesus spoke of branches, vines and husbandsmen.

JOHN 15:1-8 "I AM the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch canot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much furit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch and is withered; and men gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. HEREIN IS MY FATHER GLORIFIED, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples."

Why is his Father glorified? Because he is the husbandman who tends the vine - cutting and tethering the branches for much fruit. The Lord of Hosts who sent his branch was the one who established the vine.

You may teach that Jesus IS God because he carries God's authority and his title (coming in his name), but Jesus taught that God is the one whom HE abides in as we are to abide in Jesus. Does that make us husbandsman because we can bring forth fruit? No, for we are but branches and the fruit comes from the vine. Does that make Jesus the husbandman then, because he is the vine wherewith the branches stem? No. For it is the glory of the Father that he tends the branches of the vine; and Jesus did not come to take that away from him.

As we are to respect the vine which we stem, Jesus is also to respect the husbandman who establishes the harvest by what he gives and takes from the vine.

There is so much we don't know but that does not make us any less worthy to be born of God. We would all do well to remember that.

It is you who are confused. I am trying to assist you in gaining an understanding of the truth. The truth is plain. Jesus is God and is not a created being. Jesus created all things in heaven and earth, and nothing was created by any other. All things were created by him and for him; he is before all things and by him all things consist.

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Colossians 1:14-17

It is interesting that you failed to mention that Isaiah says that Jesus shall be called the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father. Read Isaiah 9:6 again very carefully.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

.

 

[Solo]

The charts that the Holy Pig and the Reformer put up are great. I for one am excited to see the commitment they have put into defending the faith. Solo he says it the way it is. Many on this board are probably seeing the truth for the first time.

jgredline,

You have just provided us with an excellent example of how to defend the Faith wothout harsh comments. This is how we would like to see the basic Tenants of the Faith defended. I much rather see this than censor everything unorthodox that comes our way.

Peace and God bless,
Vic

I would like the membership of this forum to respect the Tenets of the Faith as set forth in the Terms of Service and the Statement of Faith of the 123 Christian Forum. Those who do not abide by these Tenets of Mainline Christianity should be held accountable for breaking their agreement in signing registration to this site.

It is clear that doctrines of devils will come on board to lead the young of the faith away. It is the responsibility of those who know the truth to protect these from lies of another gospel.

 

[Klee shay]

It is you who are confused.

If I am indeed "confused" then your prayers for me may do more than your admonishing of my mental capacity to understand. For it is God I hear and follow. If I am confused only He can lead me into clarity.

I am trying to assist you in gaining an understanding of the truth.

In the unity Jesus commanded his disciples to share, I will accept your desire to assist as being driven to be faithful to God. I am learning more and more to seek the faithful of God rather than judging those who disagree with me. :wink:

The truth is plain. Jesus is God and is not a created being. Jesus created all things in heaven and earth, and nothing was created by any other. All things were created by him and for him; he is before all things and by him all things consist.

This is not the understanding I have so this truth is not so plain to me. If the truth you declare is indeed true however, then I will return to it, but right now I'm testing all that I think I understand beggining with Jesus in the flesh. If this then leads to "Jesus is really God", I will concede to that reality but what is simple to you means nothing to me unless it comes from God.

It is interesting that you failed to mention that Isaiah says that Jesus shall be called the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father. Read Isaiah 9:6 again very carefully.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

You must have missed this part of my post...it is in reference to Isaiah 9:6 you quoted.

Would Jesus not be called all these things if he did come in THE NAME of the Lord, as he declared all his ministry, miracles and prophecy in?

I confess that he will be called these names, but that it was given to him; for he came bearing the name of the Lord.

I would like the membership of this forum to respect the Tenets of the Faith as set forth in the Terms of Service and the Statement of Faith of the 123 Christian Forum. Those who do not abide by these Tenets of Mainline Christianity should be held accountable for breaking their agreement in signing registration to this site.

It is clear that doctrines of devils will come on board to lead the young of the faith away. It is the responsibility of those who know the truth to protect these from lies of another gospel.

I know this was directed towards vic, but I would like to comment on it briefly if I may for what could be the greater good. You may not realise it but what you are asking is that people put their allegeance to this websites' Tenets of Faith before their allegeance to God. Swear by no oaths remember.

It is a formality one must agree to in order to participate and indeed every member should respect it once agreeing to it. When you fellowship with other Christians however, do you muzzle what could potentially be an avenue of growth that God desires for those needing instruction?

I don't know the possibility of actually participating in a religious discussion while keeping one's "beliefs" at bay completely...even if expressing those beliefs does seem to contradict this websites Tenets of Faith. Jesus did not want the children denied to come to him however. If this website is indeed meant to be a place where Christians can find the truth through Jesus Christ; how can one realise the truth by being silenced from expressing their understanding of Christ?

I see why you desire members stick to these Tenets, and it is not a bad thing to want to uphold it; but remember you are dealing with "children" in understanding, even you Solo, are a child unto Jesus. Do we hold the children back because of their unruly behaviour?

Anyway, that's my piece. It's not meant to offend the Tenets by which we agree to participate in these discussions, but rather if the Tenets are there to help bring children to Christ, why use the Tenets then to deny the children from coming to Christ?

God bless.

 

[Solo]

I see why you desire members stick to these Tenets, and it is not a bad thing to want to uphold it; but remember you are dealing with "children" in understanding, even you Solo, are a child unto Jesus. Do we hold the children back because of their unruly behaviour?

Anyway, that's my piece. It's not meant to offend the Tenets by which we agree to participate in these discussions, but rather if the Tenets are there to help bring children to Christ, why use the Tenets then to deny the children from coming to Christ?

God bless.

Which Jesus do you desire to bring the children to, the real Jesus or the false Jesus. The false Jesus is the one that people say is a created Jesus, or an angel Jesus, or the archangel Michael, or anything but God. The real Jesus is the Word, God, come in the flesh.

Jesus is God and there is no debate to the truth. There is the devil's ploy to confuse those who are not yet grounded in the truth, and swallow the seed of the gospel of Jesus before it can take root. Don't be deceived by the enemy.

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 1 John 4:1-3

1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 Peter 2:1

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Matthew 7:15

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Matthew 24:11

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Matthew 24:24

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. 2 Corinthians 11:13-15

4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: Galatians 2:4

1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 1 Timothy 4:1-5

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. Matthew 24:4-5

17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. Romans 16:17-18

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them. 8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) 10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. Ephesians 5:6-11

 

[Vic C.]

Well where to begin with Benny Hinn. Lets start here
http://www.christianresearchservice.com/Benny_Hinn.htm
Read and weap. There is no way to defend him.

As for Keneth Copeland and his coocoo claims start here
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/kcopeland.html

If you need more let me know

Good stuff, thanks. Though, to those who follow this bunch, they will say this is nothing more than a conspiracy. :o

 

[jgredline]

Which Jesus do you desire to bring the children to, the real Jesus or the false Jesus. The false Jesus is the one that people say is a created Jesus, or an angel Jesus, or the archangel Michael, or anything but God. The real Jesus is the Word, God, come in the flesh.

Jesus is God and there is no debate to the truth. There is the devil's ploy to confuse those who are not yet grounded in the truth, and swallow the seed of the gospel of Jesus before it can take root. Don't be deceived by the enemy.

Solo
Thank you for defending the true Gospel Of Jesus Christ

 

[jgredline]

Well where to begin with Benny Hinn. Lets start here
http://www.christianresearchservice.com/Benny_Hinn.htm
Read and weap. There is no way to defend him.

As for Keneth Copeland and his coocoo claims start here
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/kcopeland.html

If you need more let me know

Good stuff, thanks. Though, to those who follow this bunch, they will say this is nothing more than a conspiracy. :o

I realize these these name it and claim it preachers do have a large following but again those preachers don't have a leg to stand on. Their theology does not hold water. There is so much amunition out there against the benny hinns of this world that it would be a fun debate.

 

[Klee shay]

Which Jesus do you desire to bring the children to, the real Jesus or the false Jesus. The false Jesus is the one that people say is a created Jesus, or an angel Jesus, or the archangel Michael, or anything but God. The real Jesus is the Word, God, come in the flesh.

Lets just hope you're absolutely correct in your definitions of Christ and God then, as you will be judged for it as "knowing". If you had said you were blind and still in need of guidance (as a child) then you would not be guilty of sin. You lead people to "your" Christ and I will keep searching for mine as not knowing - one who needs a Saviour whether he be called Jesus the Son of God or Jesus "the" God.

Jesus is God and there is no debate to the truth.

How many debates did Jesus participate with the delluded men of his time, and at what point did he say; "you shall not debate with me for I am the truth?" Jesus answered every question with authority and he silenced them with his profound understanding of the word.

How could Jesus reveal the truth if no-one challenged his authority though? If we stop debating what is the truth then we stop seeking God.

There is the devil's ploy to confuse those who are not yet grounded in the truth, and swallow the seed of the gospel of Jesus before it can take root. Don't be deceived by the enemy.

I don't view God's word as the enemy or my ability to understand it.

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 1 John 4:1-3

You read that to mean those who reject Jesus AS God, is the antichrist being described here. I'm not quite sure if you're reading what I'm reading however. Let me clarify what I'm reading.

"Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is of God:" In other words the spirit which confesses Jesus came in the flesh, then that spirit is of God. I think you would be hard to find a Christian that doesn't believe Jesus came in the flesh. The spirits who don't believe he came in the flesh however (but rather is something else) they are the antichrist.

How do you go from a non-trinitarian who confesses Jesus Christ came in the flesh but is not God (of God but not God himself) to being the antichrist? I don't understand the criteria you are using to make this assessment.

1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 Peter 2:1

We all know this is true. Where we have problems is when one or two people feel only they have the truth, even in the face of scriptures which challenge that truth. Scripture is there to try the spirits, Solo, and you would silence people who address what the scriptures are saying?

Do we follow a Saviour of bondage then, or one who is not affraid to come into his own light?

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Matthew 7:15

Judge righteous judement through Christ.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Matthew 24:11

Yep.

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Matthew 24:24

Agreed.

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. 2 Corinthians 11:13-15

No mystery there. The truth is revealed.

4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: Galatians 2:4

Fear no-one but God.

1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 1 Timothy 4:1-5

I get the gist...

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. Matthew 24:4-5

You're a man. :wink:

17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. Romans 16:17-18

Can you tell me of anything Jesus said about avoiding people? I can remember him telling his disciples to beware of the Gentiles and then sent them into all nations to publish everything he taught them.

Did Jesus avoid the Pharisees though? Did Jesus avoid those who did good works? Did Jesus avoid the drinkers, gluttons, prostitutes, etc. Jesus said he came as a sword which would inevitably divide people, but he did not actively preach for anyone to be avoided. Rather he said, seek not after those things they seek.

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them. 8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) 10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. Ephesians 5:6-11

And yet amazingly, Jesus sent his disciples into the world to publish what they've seen and heard to all nations. Did Jesus tell his disciples to actively rebuke people on their journey? Did he tell them not to be with people - to judge others? Rather Jesus told them to shake the dust from their feet as a testimony against the towns who would not receive them. Therefore Jesus deomonstrated that his gospel was a gift, freely given to those who would listen.

When we start dictating what is the truth and silencing the children who want to come to Jesus (but struggle with what is written in the scriptures) then it cesases to be about Jesus.

The Pharasees taught about the laws of God but did not give their hearts over to God. Rather it was invested back into their own sense of righteousness and power. Christians must also avoid the same trap of becoming a hypocrite. For when the message is used to force people into silence and bondage to man's ideals of God, then it stops being about God.

You asked me what Jesus I desire to bring the children to, and I must say that it is the Jesus who offered the free gift of his gospel...the one who would not use man's creeds to stop testing the spirits with God's word - remember he got crucified for that one. The Jesus who would not avoid questions...the Jesus who would not turn away from those who sort him.

You would offer people the Jesus that will not be tested against his Father's word...the one whose truth can never be debated?

Knowledge of the word means nothing if you have not the heart to invest in the lessons therein.

 

[Solo]

.

1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come. 2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest. 3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves. 4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way. 5 And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house. 6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again. 7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house. 8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you: 9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you. 10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say, 11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you. 12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city. 13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you. 15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell. 16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me. Luke 10:1-16

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[Imagican]

Solo,

Once one begins to study the 'history' behind 'trinity', there is MUCH that indicates that this 'God the Son' is the 'created' Jesus, and NOT created BY God, but rather, created by 'man'.

IF Jesus IS the Son and IS NOT GOD, where does this leave those that have 'created' a 'god' out of Him. IF we are to accept Christ for EXACTLY WHO HE STATED HE IS, where does that lead those that accept a 'trinity' that insists that Jesus IS God?

I KNOW God, and I KNOW Christ and quite often I am filled with and recognize the 'Holy Spirit'. I won't sit here and PULL YOUR LEG and tell you, "God told me this", or 'God told me that'. I won't tell you that I am ALWAYS filled with the Spirit. I AM weak and the ONLY strengnth that I EVER possess comes from ABOVE and NOT of mine own.

Now, I am quite sure that there are many that accept 'trinity' that can state the 'same' thing that I have just stated. I'm NOT going to accuse those that accept 'trinity' of 'being lost' or 'unsaved' or ANYTHING of the sort. ALL I know is WHAT has been revealed to me through the Word.

I have learned quite a bit of history and what I have learned is that those that created this 'trinity' sure did some rotten things to their 'neihbors' in there insistence to 'FORCE' everyone under their jurisdiction to either accept 'trinity' or 'suffer the consequences' of being labeled an heretic. This is NOT what Christ taught NOR His apostles. Christ was the ULTIMATE example of 'what' we TOO should DO. This is NOT what those that created 'trinity' did. WHY? What altered their hearts and their teachings that would allow them to treat their fellow brothers and sister in such a way?

I believe that it was the FACT that they followed 'their OWN words' rather than The Word. They Inserted Jesus into their previous pagan religious ritual and just 'made up' a NEW religion. For, if they had TRULY been following Christ, there would have been NO way that they could have treated their neighbors in any such way.

I believe that one of the MAJOR changes that they introduced into Christianity was 'trinity'. I have found MUCH evidence that this is EXACTLY what they did. And when the Protestants separated themselves from the CC, they simply carried this baggage right along with them. For it wasn't the DOCTRINE of the CC that they rebelled against, it was the CONTROL and ABUSE of the congregation which they fled from.

I KNOW God and I KNOW Jesus Christ, His Son. I DON'T know any 'trinity'. And I know that IF this 'trinity' WAS as important as YOU say that it is; what I have stated WOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE. You have said as much yourself. Now, the ONLY alternative is that5 I am simply a 'liar' and have come here 'seeking MY OWN'. If this is what you 'truly' believe, then SO BE IT. But I have come here to offer the UNDERSTANDING of the LOVE OF GOD. This I HAVE FOUND THROUGH HIS SON. The ONLY thing you can do by accusing ME of being LOST is show ME that there is really something 'wrong' with YOU. I KNOW WHAT I KNOW. And it wasn't TAUGHT to me by 'man'.

I have offered much understanding concerning 'trinity'. There are certainly those that recognize it. No doubt that those that follow the CC or any division of it would 'burn me at the stake' if they were still as powerful as they once were. This is NOT surprising to me in the least.

What I find utterly without 'cause' are those that claim that they 'truly' KNOW God and His Son, but are unable to recognize what I offer. And not only unable to recognize, able at the 'same time' to toss out accusations towards ME as if I have 'done something WRONG' by offering what has been 'revealed' to ME.

We are TOLD to 'judge the 'fruit' produced', from those that 'claim' to be Christians. We are also TOLD to BEWARE, for MANY will come 'claiming' that, here is Christ, there is Christ, but to IGNORE these for Christ IS NOT Here, nor IS HE THERE. But Christ IS revealed through the 'fruit' of them that allow Him to live through THEM. For they are able to reflect the love that Christ offered to their fellow man.

NO, threatening, accusing, belittling, name calling is NOT what Christ would have us do. Showing anger towards those that 'do not understand' Father or Son is NOT what Christ would have us do. We are told to LOVE OUR ENEMIES. NO, not those that simply 'agree' with us, but OUR ENEMIES. For anyone to 'claim' Christ as their Savior and exhibit NONE of this is a contradiction in what I UNDERSTAND of Christ and His Father.

There is NO Christianity in one that denies the LOVE OF GOD. And even 'baby' Christians are able to exhibit at least 'some' of this love of which I speak. For those that are incapable of exhibiting it, I contend that there is NO love in them. For this to be true, there could be NO Christ in them.

I am NOT here to accuse ANYONE of ANYTHING. I am simply offering the love that I am capable of offering. If anyone takes offense to what I have offered, i would suggest 'starting over' with God AS your God and Christ AS His Son and see if it doesn't 'alter' anger into love, hate into love, envy into love, rebelion INTO LOVE.

I bless you all and wish NOTHING more for you than an understanding of the love that OUR FATHER has for us. Not SELFISH love contained in the hearts of men, Heavenly love that is SO PURE that NOTHING can hinder or alter it. THIS IS WHAT I WOULD HAVE FOR EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU.

I know HOW I found it, and have done nothing short of offering this same undertanding to others. And for it, I am often times accused of 'being lost', 'not being saved', 'running with the Devil', 'void of ANY understanding'.

I know this folks and I KNOW this without a DOUBT in my mind or heart: There is NO love in those that insist that I MUST follow them and their ways. This is 'self love' and the same love that had Lucifer 'cast' down from above. For he LOVED HIMSELF, MORE than He loved the Father. So, he made HIMSELF god and for this he will pay a very dear price once Christ returns AS our KING.

I was told by God and told by His Son, to follow NO man. I have the Word and I have the Spirit to guide me in this Word. I NEED NO OTHER UNDERSTANDING. There are certainly those that would be envious of me for stating something SO bold. For the churches teach that I NEED them. Foolishness designed to ensnare those that refuse to accept God on HIS TERMS. And these WILL accuse ME of being LOST. For they would have me follow that which they follow: other men. i accept the 'simplicity that IS Christ Jesus'. And I need NO man to 'introduce me' to MY SAVIOR.

I hope that what I have offered here is able to loosen the chains that seem to bind so many here. I USE to be SO imprisoned in the confines of this world that I would wish this upon NO MAN. I would that they AVOID that which I 'had to go through' to get 'here'. But, I would rather EACH one of you suffer as I have than to follow some 'false God'. And maybe herein lies 'part' of the problem. Christ DID NOT COME to save those that already 'believe' they are saved. HE CAME FOR THOSE THAT ARE LOST. For one that is NOT sick does NOT NEED a physician. So too is this true of Christ.

 

[Klee shay]

.

1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come. 2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest. 3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves. 4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way. 5 And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house. 6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again. 7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house. 8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you: 9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you. 10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say, 11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you. 12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city. 13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you. 15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell. 16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me. Luke 10:1-16

.

Thanks for sharing those scriptures, I was wondering what it was specifically in regards to however? Not sure if you were referring to something in my post or just sharing in general.

 

[R7-12]

Very well said Klee Shay.

I enjoyed your last response on the previous page and I see no refutation given by anyone on the many valid, truth-based points you raised.

Indeed, I see many truths presented and defended on this subject on multiple threads but no valid refutations given by those who disagree. So what faith is being effectively defended in most cases on this topic?

It's self-evident.

It would be beneficial for all and just plain satisfying to see people on both sides of any given issue, raise the standard of defense when responding. What I'm talking about is not resorting to personal attacks or cheap pot shots, but instead, directly answering each valid question with respect and a well thought-out response based on Bible texts, rational thought, and honesty - at all times.

R7-12

 

[mutzrein]

Very well said Klee Shay.

I enjoyed your response and I see no refutation given by anyone on the many valid, truth-based points you raised.

Indeed, I see many truths presented and defended on this subject on multiple threads but no valid refutations given by those who disagree. So what faith is being effectively defended in most cases on this topic?

It's self-evident.

It would be beneficial for all and just plain satisfying to see people on both sides of any given issue, raise the standard of defense when responding. What I'm talking about is not resorting to personal attacks or cheap pot shots, but instead, directly answering each valid question with respect and a well thought-out response based on Bible texts, rational thought, and honesty - at all times.

R7-12

Amen

 

[Solo]

Solo,

Once one begins to study the 'history' behind 'trinity', there is MUCH that indicates that this 'God the Son' is the 'created' Jesus, and NOT created BY God, but rather, created by 'man'.

IF Jesus IS the Son and IS NOT GOD, where does this leave those that have 'created' a 'god' out of Him. IF we are to accept Christ for EXACTLY WHO HE STATED HE IS, where does that lead those that accept a 'trinity' that insists that Jesus IS God?

I KNOW God, and I KNOW Christ and quite often I am filled with and recognize the 'Holy Spirit'. I won't sit here and PULL YOUR LEG and tell you, "God told me this", or 'God told me that'. I won't tell you that I am ALWAYS filled with the Spirit. I AM weak and the ONLY strengnth that I EVER possess comes from ABOVE and NOT of mine own.

Now, I am quite sure that there are many that accept 'trinity' that can state the 'same' thing that I have just stated. I'm NOT going to accuse those that accept 'trinity' of 'being lost' or 'unsaved' or ANYTHING of the sort. ALL I know is WHAT has been revealed to me through the Word.

I have learned quite a bit of history and what I have learned is that those that created this 'trinity' sure did some rotten things to their 'neihbors' in there insistence to 'FORCE' everyone under their jurisdiction to either accept 'trinity' or 'suffer the consequences' of being labeled an heretic. This is NOT what Christ taught NOR His apostles. Christ was the ULTIMATE example of 'what' we TOO should DO. This is NOT what those that created 'trinity' did. WHY? What altered their hearts and their teachings that would allow them to treat their fellow brothers and sister in such a way?

I believe that it was the FACT that they followed 'their OWN words' rather than The Word. They Inserted Jesus into their previous pagan religious ritual and just 'made up' a NEW religion. For, if they had TRULY been following Christ, there would have been NO way that they could have treated their neighbors in any such way.

I believe that one of the MAJOR changes that they introduced into Christianity was 'trinity'. I have found MUCH evidence that this is EXACTLY what they did. And when the Protestants separated themselves from the CC, they simply carried this baggage right along with them. For it wasn't the DOCTRINE of the CC that they rebelled against, it was the CONTROL and ABUSE of the congregation which they fled from.

I KNOW God and I KNOW Jesus Christ, His Son. I DON'T know any 'trinity'. And I know that IF this 'trinity' WAS as important as YOU say that it is; what I have stated WOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE. You have said as much yourself. Now, the ONLY alternative is that5 I am simply a 'liar' and have come here 'seeking MY OWN'. If this is what you 'truly' believe, then SO BE IT. But I have come here to offer the UNDERSTANDING of the LOVE OF GOD. This I HAVE FOUND THROUGH HIS SON. The ONLY thing you can do by accusing ME of being LOST is show ME that there is really something 'wrong' with YOU. I KNOW WHAT I KNOW. And it wasn't TAUGHT to me by 'man'.

I have offered much understanding concerning 'trinity'. There are certainly those that recognize it. No doubt that those that follow the CC or any division of it would 'burn me at the stake' if they were still as powerful as they once were. This is NOT surprising to me in the least.

What I find utterly without 'cause' are those that claim that they 'truly' KNOW God and His Son, but are unable to recognize what I offer. And not only unable to recognize, able at the 'same time' to toss out accusations towards ME as if I have 'done something WRONG' by offering what has been 'revealed' to ME.

We are TOLD to 'judge the 'fruit' produced', from those that 'claim' to be Christians. We are also TOLD to BEWARE, for MANY will come 'claiming' that, here is Christ, there is Christ, but to IGNORE these for Christ IS NOT Here, nor IS HE THERE. But Christ IS revealed through the 'fruit' of them that allow Him to live through THEM. For they are able to reflect the love that Christ offered to their fellow man.

NO, threatening, accusing, belittling, name calling is NOT what Christ would have us do. Showing anger towards those that 'do not understand' Father or Son is NOT what Christ would have us do. We are told to LOVE OUR ENEMIES. NO, not those that simply 'agree' with us, but OUR ENEMIES. For anyone to 'claim' Christ as their Savior and exhibit NONE of this is a contradiction in what I UNDERSTAND of Christ and His Father.

There is NO Christianity in one that denies the LOVE OF GOD. And even 'baby' Christians are able to exhibit at least 'some' of this love of which I speak. For those that are incapable of exhibiting it, I contend that there is NO love in them. For this to be true, there could be NO Christ in them.

I am NOT here to accuse ANYONE of ANYTHING. I am simply offering the love that I am capable of offering. If anyone takes offense to what I have offered, i would suggest 'starting over' with God AS your God and Christ AS His Son and see if it doesn't 'alter' anger into love, hate into love, envy into love, rebelion INTO LOVE.

I bless you all and wish NOTHING more for you than an understanding of the love that OUR FATHER has for us. Not SELFISH love contained in the hearts of men, Heavenly love that is SO PURE that NOTHING can hinder or alter it. THIS IS WHAT I WOULD HAVE FOR EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU.

I know HOW I found it, and have done nothing short of offering this same undertanding to others. And for it, I am often times accused of 'being lost', 'not being saved', 'running with the Devil', 'void of ANY understanding'.

I know this folks and I KNOW this without a DOUBT in my mind or heart: There is NO love in those that insist that I MUST follow them and their ways. This is 'self love' and the same love that had Lucifer 'cast' down from above. For he LOVED HIMSELF, MORE than He loved the Father. So, he made HIMSELF god and for this he will pay a very dear price once Christ returns AS our KING.

I was told by God and told by His Son, to follow NO man. I have the Word and I have the Spirit to guide me in this Word. I NEED NO OTHER UNDERSTANDING. There are certainly those that would be envious of me for stating something SO bold. For the churches teach that I NEED them. Foolishness designed to ensnare those that refuse to accept God on HIS TERMS. And these WILL accuse ME of being LOST. For they would have me follow that which they follow: other men. i accept the 'simplicity that IS Christ Jesus'. And I need NO man to 'introduce me' to MY SAVIOR.

I hope that what I have offered here is able to loosen the chains that seem to bind so many here. I USE to be SO imprisoned in the confines of this world that I would wish this upon NO MAN. I would that they AVOID that which I 'had to go through' to get 'here'. But, I would rather EACH one of you suffer as I have than to follow some 'false God'. And maybe herein lies 'part' of the problem. Christ DID NOT COME to save those that already 'believe' they are saved. HE CAME FOR THOSE THAT ARE LOST. For one that is NOT sick does NOT NEED a physician. So too is this true of Christ.

.

Believing that Jesus(God, God with us) is come in the flesh as stated many, many times before, is the test of one that believes the doctrine of Christ, and is not deceived by the spirit of antiChrist.

7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2 John 1:7-9


Paul explains to the Philipians that Jesus being in the form of God, equal with God, MADE HIMSELF of no reputation, taking on the form of a servant in the likeness of men. God made himself flesh and became the Son of God, Jesus.


5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philipians 2:5-11

If Jesus does the works of God, then believe Him that he is in the Father and the Father is in Him.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.


John 1:1

And the Word was God (kai theos e¯n ho logos). By exact and careful language John denied Sabellianism (see below) by not saying ho theos e¯n ho logos. That would mean that all of God was expressed in ho logos and the terms would be interchangeable, each having the article. The subject is made plain by the article (ho logos) and the predicate without it (theos) just as in Joh_4:24 pneuma ho theos can only mean "God is spirit," not "spirit is God." So in 1Jo_4:16 ho theos agape¯ estin can only mean "God is love," not "love is God" as a so-called Christian scientist would confusedly say. For the article with the predicate see Robertson, Grammar, pp. 767f. So in Joh_1:14 ho Logos sarx egeneto, "the Word became flesh," not "the flesh became Word." Luther argues that here John disposes of Arianism also because the Logos was eternally God, fellowship of Father and Son, what Origen called the Eternal Generation of the Son (each necessary to the other). Thus in the Trinity we see personal fellowship on an equality. (Robertson's Word Pictures)

And the Word was God (kai theos e¯n ho logos)
In the Greek order, and God was the Word, which is followed by Anglo-Saxon, Wyc., and Tynd. But Theos, God, is the predicate and not the subject of the proposition. The subject must be the Word; for John is not trying to show who is God, but who is the Word. Notice that Theos is without the article, which could not have been omitted if he had meant to designate the word as God; because, in that event, Theos would have been ambiguous; perhaps a God. (Vincent's Word Studies)

No reputable scholars support the J.W. "a" god theory. Since they sing the praises of the Wescott & Hort text in their introduction, we'll let Dr. B. F. Westcott give his scholarly opinion on this portion of the Greek.
"The predicate (God) stands emphatically first, as in iv. 24. It is necessarily without the article...No idea of inferiority of nature is suggested by the form of expression, which simply affirms the true deity of the Word...In the third clause "the Word" is declared to be 'God" and so included in the unity of the Godhead."

Sabellianism was the heretical doctrine that Jesus was God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as ONE person, alone, denying the 3 persons of the Godhead. This heresy preceeded the Arius heresy which later denied that Jesus was God and that he was created by God. The second heresy is the doctrine that resurged in the Jehovah's Witness group 100+ years ago.

Retrieved from http://www.members.tripod.com/crossbear ... /id194.htm

 

[R7-12]

Why is it that Trinitarians always avoid certain facts?

If the doctrine is true it will be able to overcome every objection and explain every Biblical question.

There has not been a single translation of John 1:1 that I have seen offered by a Trinitarian that doesn't omit key words.

Examples can be seen in the posts above and throughout this forum.

Here it is in Greek and below is the accurate English translation.

ēn arche ēn ho logos
In beginning was the logos

kai ho logos ēn pros ton theon
and the logos was toward the theon

kai theos ēn ho logos
and theos was the logos

There is a reason it was written, "kai ho logos ēn pros ton theon."

Why? Because the word theos is used twice in this short text and therefore it is necessary to distinguish one from the other. This was in fact done and the distinction made clearly evident. Remember theos is the Greek equivalent to the Hebrew word elohim. The angels of God are elohim or theoi as sons of God and therefore must be differentiated from the only true theos or Most High elohim when spoken of.

The son of God we know as Jesus Christ is an elohim or theos but not THE Elohim, he is not THE Theos. He is one of many elohim or theoi of God.

Therefore we read in John 1:1,

kai ho logos ēn pros ton theon
and the Logos was toward the theon

The word was in a subordinate position looking toward THE God.

The defintie article used here in Greek is vital to the correct understanding of the text. It's not here by accident and significantly changes the meaning of the text by its inclusion.

It completely destroys the false Trinitarian assertion that the word who was theos (or an elohim) was also THE Theon (or THE Elohim).

It cannot be refuted because Trinitarianism cannot explain it within the Bible narrative.

R7-12

 

[jgredline]

Why is it that Trinitarians always avoid certain facts?

If the doctrine is true it will be able to overcome every objection and explain every Biblical question.

There has not been a single translation of John 1:1 that I have seen offered by a Trinitarian that doesn't omit key words.

Examples can be seen in the posts above and throughout this forum.

Here it is in Greek and below is the accurate English translation.

ēn arche ēn ho logos
In beginning was the logos

kai ho logos ēn pros ton theon
and the logos was toward the theon

kai theos ēn ho logos
and theos was the logos

There is a reason it was written, "kai ho logos ēn pros ton theon."

Why? Because the word theos is used twice in this short text and therefore it is necessary to distinguish one from the other. This was in fact done and the distinction made clearly evident. Remember theos is the Greek equivalent to the Hebrew word elohim. The angels of God are elohim or theoi as sons of God and therefore must be differentiated from the only true theos or Most High elohim when spoken of.

The son of God we know as Jesus Christ is an elohim or theos but not THE Elohim, he is not THE Theos. He is one of many elohim or theoi of God.

Therefore we read in John 1:1,

kai ho logos ēn pros ton theon
and the Logos was toward the theon

The word was in a subordinate position looking toward THE God.

The defintie article used here in Greek is vital to the correct understanding of the text. It's not here by accident and significantly changes the meaning of the text by its inclusion.

It completely destroys the false Trinitarian assertion that the word who was theos (or an elohim) was also THE Theon (or THE Elohim).

It cannot be refuted because Trinitarianism cannot explain it within the Bible narrative.

R7-12

There you go again with your heretical teachings. Where or whom did you learn your theology from?



R7-12
Here is what I do know about you.

Going by your prevoiuse post you belong or are affilated with the Cultec sect
http://www.logon.org/

You believe / claim / say that Jesus was a created being. JW, Mormons, beleive the same thing.

You have said you are a unitarian. Thats obviose

Anyone of those three would make you a Gnostic ( you seem to beleive you have this knowledege no one else has) which in tern makes your teachings cultish. You keep saying that no one can answer your questions. True many of your questions can't be answered because you twist and make up scripture just like you did in John 1:1
I have been reading many of your heretic post and my friend you need to repent of your false doctrine and find the true Jesus. Have you noticed that you are in such a minority in what you beleive?

What I don't understand is how you with your obviuse intellect got hooked into this bad theology. With the way you apply your self to learning you could do alot of Good for the kingdome of God.

Look at History and all the wonderful Christian Bible teachers and theologians that teach Jesus is a part of the triune God head. That Jesus is not a created being but is the Logos, Equal with God and the Holy Spirit.
Here are just a few Bible teachers that thought Correctly. Some old and some new.
Ignatius
(35-107)
Polycarp
(69-155)
Quintus Florens Tertullian
(160-220)
Chrysostom (John of Antioch)
(347-407)
Patrick
(389-461)
DARK AGES OF THE CHURCH
(A.D. 500-1000)
Columba
(521-597)
REFORMATION OF THE CHURCH
(A.D. 1000-1500)
John Wycliffe
(1320-1384)
John Huss
(1369-1415)
Girolamo Savonarola
(1452-1498)
Ulrich Zwingli
(1484-1531)
William Tyndale
(1494-1536)
Martin Luther
(1483-1546)
Menno Simons
(1492-1559)
ENLIGHTMENT OF THE CHURCH
(A.D. 1500-1600)
John Calvin
(1509-1564) John Knox (1513-1572) WORD GROWTH IN THE CHURCH
(A.D. 1600-1700)
Roger Williams (1603-1684) John Bunyan (1628-1688) Richard Baxter
(1615-1691)
George Fox (1624-1691)
SANTIFICATION OF THE CHURCH
(A.D. 1700-1800)
Susanna Wesley (1659-1742) Alexander Mack
(1679-1735)
David Brainerd
(1718-1747)
Jonathon Edwards
(1703-1758)
George Whitefield
(1714-1770)
John Wesley
(1703-1791)
TRUTH PREVAILS IN THE CHURCH
(A.D. 1800-1900)
John Newton (1725-1807) Robert Raikes (1736-1811) Francis Asbury (1745-1816) William Carey
(1761-1834)
Christmas Evans
(1766-1838)
Robert Murray McCheyne
(1813-1843)
Adoniram Judson
(1788-1850)
Peter Cartwright
(1785-1872)
David Livingstone
(1813-1873)
Charles Grandison Finney
(1792-1875)
Stephen Paxon
(1837-1881)
Robert Moffat
(1795-1883)
Jeremiah McAuley
(1839-1884)
Charles Haddon Spurgeon
(1834-1892)
Absalom Backus Earle
(1812-1895)
Adoniram Judson Gordon
(1836-1895)
Dwight Lyman Moody
(1837-1899)
EVANGELISM OF THE CHURCH
(A.D. 1900-2000)
John Jasper
(1812-1901) Thomas DeWitt Talmage (1832-1902) James Hudson Taylor (1832-1905) Samuel Porter Jones (1847-1906) John Gibson Paton (1824-1907) William Bradford Booth (1829-1912) John Hyde (1865-1912) Benajah Harvey Carroll (1843-1914) John Wilbur Chapman
(1859-1918)
Albert Benjamin Simpson
(1884-1919)
Cyrus Ingersoll Scofield
(1843-1921)
Amzi Clarence Dixon
(1854-1925)
Reuben Archer Torrey
(1856-1928)
Frederick Brotherton Meyer
(1847-1929)
C. T. Studd
(1860-1931)
James M. Gray
(1851-1935)
William Ashley Sunday
(1862-1935)
Jonathan Goforth
(1859-1936)
Paul Rader
(1879-1938)
William Edward Biederwolf
(1867-1939)
T. T. Martin
(1862-1939)
Melvin Ernest Trotter
(1870-1940)
Henry Clay Morrison
(1857-1942)
Reuben (Uncle Bud) Robinson
(1860-1942)
George W. Truett
(1867-1944)
George Campbell Morgan
(1863-1945)
Lee Rutland Scarborough
(1870-1945)
Rodney (Gypsy) Smith
(1860-1947)
William Bell Riley
(1861-1947)
Louis S. Bauman
(1875-1950)
Evan Roberts
(1878-1950)
William Leroy Pettingill
(1886-1950)
Harry A. Ironside (1876-1951) Lewis Sperry Chafer (1871-1952) John Franklyn Norris (1877-1952) Thomas Todhunter Shields (1873-1955)
William Reed Newell
(1868-1956) John Edward Brown (1879-1957) Louis Entzminger (1876-1958) William Graham Scroggie
(1877-1958)
Mordecai Ham
(1878-1959)
Ernest Ira Reveal
(1880-1959)
Robert Pierce Shuler
(1880-1965)
Martin R. De Haan
(1891-1965)
Charles Frederick Weigle
(1871-1966)
Robert Reynolds Jones
(1883-1968)
Charles Edward Fuller
(1887-1968)
Alva J. McClain
(1888-1968)
Walter Lewis Wilson
(1881-1969)
William Culbertson
(1905-1971)
Dallas Franklin Billington
(1903-1972)
Fred Sheldon Donnelson
(1897-1974)
George Beauchamp Vick
(1901-1975)
Gaylord Ford Porter
(1893-1976)
Oliver Boyce Greene
(1915-1976)
Robert Greene Lee
(1886-1978)
John Richard Rice
(1895-1980)
Bascom Ray Lakin

Present day Bible teachers
J Vernon Magee
Chuck Smith (and over 600 Calvary chapel pastors)
Billy Grahm
Franklin Grahm
Chuck Colsen
Jon Coursen
Allister begg
John MaCarther
Dan Fuller
Norman Gehsler
Hank Hanegraph
David Hocking

And my list go go on to add thousands more. What do these teachers have in comman. They let the Holy Spirit interpret the scriptures for them, not man.



Instead what you have are know cults and cultish teachers like
Benny Hinn,
Joyce Meyer
T.D. Jakes
Kenneth Copeland
Paula White and much of TBN
And this list go go on for a little bit. Maybe a hundred or so. Point is you may not even be aware that your theology is on par with these cults, but it is


The charts that the Holy Pig and the Reformer put up are great. I for one am excited to see the commitment they have put into defending the faith. Solo he says it the way it is. Many on this board are probably seeing the truth for the first time.

The Deity of Christ
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
The New King James Version. 1982 (Jn 1:1-5). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

The Gospel of John introduces the Lord Jesus Christ with three tremendous statements:
“In the beginning was the Word,â€Â
“And the Word was with God,â€Â
“And the Word was God.â€Â
“The Word†is one of the highest and most profound titles of the Lord Jesus Christ. To determine the exact meaning is not easy. Obviously the Lord Jesus Christ is not the logos of Greek philosophy; rather He is the memra of the Hebrew Scriptures. Notice how important the Word is in the Old Testament. For instance, the name for Jehovah was never pronounced. It was such a holy word that they never used it at all. But this is the One who is the Word and, gathering up everything that was said of Him in the Old Testament, He is now presented as the One “In the beginning.†This beginning antedates the very first words in the Bible, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.†That beginning can be dated, although I do not believe that anyone can date it accuratelyâ€â€it is nonsense to say that it is 4004 b.c., as Ussher’s dating has it. It probably goes back billions and billions of years. You see, you and I are dealing with the God of eternity. When you go back to creation He is already there, and that is exactly the way this is usedâ€â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“in the beginning was the Word.†Notice it is not is the Word; it was not in the beginning that the Word started out or was begotten. Was (as Dr. Lenske points out) is known as a durative imperfect, meaning continued action. It means that the Word was in the beginning. What beginning? Just as far back as you want to go. The Bible says, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth†(Gen. 1:1). Does that begin God? No, just keep on going back billions and trillions and “squillions†of years. I can think back to billions of years back of creationâ€â€maybe you can go beyond thatâ€â€but let’s put down a point there, billions of years back of creation. He already was; He comes out of eternity to meet us. He did not begin. “In the beginning was the Wordâ€Ââ€â€He was already there when the beginning was. “Well,†somebody says, “there has to be a beginning somewhere.†All right, wherever you begin, He is there to meet you, He is already past tense. “In the beginning was the Wordâ€Ââ€â€five words in the original language, and there is not a man on topside of this earth who can put a date on it or understand it or fathom it. This first tremendous statement starts us off in space, you see.
The second statement is this, “and the Word was with God.†This makes it abundantly clear that He is separate and distinct from God the Father. You cannot identify Him as God the Father because He is with God. “But,†someone says, “if He is with God, He is not God.†The third statement sets us straight, “and the Word was God.†This is a clear, emphatic declaration that the Lord Jesus Christ is God. In fact, the Greek is more specific than this, because in the Greek language the important word is placed at the beginning of the sentence and it reads, “God was the Word.†That is emphatic; you cannot get it more emphati than that. Do you want to get rid of the deity of Christ? My friend, you cannot get rid of it. The first three statements in John’s gospel tie the thing down. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.â€Â
McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981).

 

[jgredline]

Imagican wrote
I KNOW God, and I KNOW Christ and quite often I am filled with and recognize the 'Holy Spirit'. I won't sit here and PULL YOUR LEG and tell you, "God told me this", or 'God told me that'. I won't tell you that I am ALWAYS filled with the Spirit. I AM weak and the ONLY strengnth that I EVER possess comes from ABOVE and NOT of mine own.



Are you sure its the Holy Spirit?
How do you know?

 

[BradtheImpaler]

jgredline,

Do you pray to the Virgin Mary?

 

[jgredline]

jgredline,

Do you pray to the Virgin Mary?

Never have and never will