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Impossible Questions For Trinitarians

Solo,

Read this again very carefully with your eyes while using your brain to think about what the question is aksing so you understand,

How do YOU practice righteousness according to the Bible?

<Edited by R7-12>
You're right vic it is off topic, but it's only one question that would normally go unnoticed - if it were simply answered. In this case, Solo has chosen to avoid. I won't place any pressure on him, I just wanted him to be clear on the question.

Thank you for reminding us to stay on topic.

R7-12
 
*blows whistle*

TIME OUT

R7-12 said:
Question 1:

According to the doctrine of the Trinity, God is one being in three hypostases, or persons, as Father, Son and Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ is co-equal with the Father (and therefore omniscient), if this were biblically true how would it possible for the following to occur, as it so obviously does within the Bible narrative?

For Jesus Christ to receive revelation from God? Which is then received by John from Messiah.

Revelation 1:1 says that it is the Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to him to show his servants things which must shortly take place. And he sent and signified it by his angel to His servant John.

:)
 
Solo said:
Those who are born of God know God, and are known by God the Savior, Jesus Christ. the First and the Last.

And where the wind bloweth... :wink:
 
I listened for 20 minutes to Jon Courson. His message was filled with error and showed no understanding for the Names of God. This fact is what blinds Trinitarians to understanding the Scriptures concerning the Godhead.

Jon developed his argument largely on Isaiah 6:1-10, which, if the names and titles of God are known and understood, proves that the pre-incarnate Christ was given the title YHVH as were other angels and thus, he is not and cannot be God.

I transcribed much of what Jon said in his sermon in which he kept repeating over and over, "God is everywhere!" as a kind of mantra intended to show that God is "so big," as he put it, that He cannot fit into anyone's conception of Him. This inferred that the Trinity is beyond what anyone can know, understand or comprehend. He mentioned at least once, "the mystery of the Trinity."

The thrust of his sermon was to prove how man can see God and yet not be able to see God because the Bible says you can't. He did this by declaring (through significant misapprehension of scripture) that Jesus is God and people could see him in the OT and the NT, and yet not be looking at God. Jon repeatedly said "Jesus is God."

His message was contradictory in many places and his understanding of rational Biblical theism appeared to be miniscule.

I could go on and describe many specific errors but that is not necessary - the sermon speaks for itself.

When placed next to the written word, the point of Jon's message proved to be entirely erroneous.

R7-12
 
jgredline said:
It kills your arguments.

Perhaps you could expand the main points which merit the above statement. Posting a link with the catch phrase, "it kills your arguements" kind of loses it's punch in a debate excluding Joh Coursens as a participant.

He's not in this debate, you are...perhaps you could speak for yourself as to what specifically kills the non-trinitarian arguements in THIS debate?
 
R7-12 said:
I listened for 20 minutes to Jon Courson. His message was filled with error and showed no understanding for the Names of God. This fact is what blinds Trinitarians to understanding the Scriptures concerning the Godhead.

Jon developed his argument largely on Isaiah 6:1-10, which, if the names and titles of God are known and understood, proves that the pre-incarnate Christ was given the title YHVH as were other angels and thus, he is not and cannot be God.

I transcribed much of what Jon said in his sermon in which he kept repeating over and over, "God is everywhere!" as a kind of mantra intended to show that God is "so big," as he put it, that He cannot fit into anyone's conception of Him. This inferred that the Trinity is beyond what anyone can know, understand or comprehend. He mentioned at least once, "the mystery of the Trinity."

The thrust of his sermon was to prove how man can see God and yet not be able to see God because the Bible says you can't. He did this by declaring (through significant misapprehension of scripture) that Jesus is God and people could see him in the OT and the NT, and yet not be looking at God. Jon repeatedly said "Jesus is God."

His message was contradictory in many places and his understanding of rational Biblical theism appeared to be miniscule.

I could go on and describe many specific errors but that is not necessary - the sermon speaks for itself.

When placed next to the written word, the point of Jon's message proved to be entirely erroneous.

R7-12
Your interpretation is erroneous due to the fact that you do not understand the names of God in their totality. Perhaps this website will help you get on track.

http://www.members.tripod.com/crossbear ... /id194.htm
 
Your interpretation is erroneous due to the fact that you do not understand the names of God in their totality.
No. I have studied the names of God over a period of nearly five years and understand them reasonably well.

Jon Courson demonstrated a profound ignorance of God's names, their usage, application, and meaning, in his message. It was clearly evident.

Since you assume I do not understand the names of God, tell me, what is the third person meaning of YHVH? Surely you know.

Or what was the inscription of the deity carved in the Temple in Elephantine which was built circa 419-400 BCE? It is one of the root names for God.

R7-12
 
R7-12 said:
I listened for 20 minutes to Jon Courson. His message was filled with error and showed no understanding for the Names of God. This fact is what blinds Trinitarians to understanding the Scriptures concerning the Godhead.

Jon developed his argument largely on Isaiah 6:1-10, which, if the names and titles of God are known and understood, proves that the pre-incarnate Christ was given the title YHVH as were other angels and thus, he is not and cannot be God.

I transcribed much of what Jon said in his sermon in which he kept repeating over and over, "God is everywhere!" as a kind of mantra intended to show that God is "so big," as he put it, that He cannot fit into anyone's conception of Him. This inferred that the Trinity is beyond what anyone can know, understand or comprehend. He mentioned at least once, "the mystery of the Trinity."

The thrust of his sermon was to prove how man can see God and yet not be able to see God because the Bible says you can't. He did this by declaring (through significant misapprehension of scripture) that Jesus is God and people could see him in the OT and the NT, and yet not be looking at God. Jon repeatedly said "Jesus is God."

His message was contradictory in many places and his understanding of rational Biblical theism appeared to be miniscule.

I could go on and describe many specific errors but that is not necessary - the sermon speaks for itself.

When placed next to the written word, the point of Jon's message proved to be entirely erroneous.

R7-12


Well my friend this is going to be one of those we will agree to disagree because your wrong. We are both strong in what we beleive and nothing is going to change our mind. I pray that no one else will fall into your theology.
Jesus was not a created being. You should consider getting a real bible. Even a KJV would work for you.
 
Well, R7,

Noone is able to answer your #1 question. How many more questions do you have? It is time to go to another question. You gave them plenty of time. thank you.
 
Klee shay said:
jgredline said:
It kills your arguments.

Perhaps you could expand the main points which merit the above statement. Posting a link with the catch phrase, "it kills your arguements" kind of loses it's punch in a debate excluding Joh Coursens as a participant.

He's not in this debate, you are...perhaps you could speak for yourself as to what specifically kills the non-trinitarian arguements in THIS debate?

I already have but for the sake of many on this forum simply take a look at John 1:1 in its original language.
You can't answer a question like what is being asked when the bible is being twisted and changed. Here for example is John 1:1 in the original writen language. http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/ ... 478.html#1
Of course the Cults would use Jesus was a God, which is clearly false.
Jesus was NOT created because he is God.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/ ... 478.html#1

What is being preached by many unitarians, JW, Oneness theology is Gnosticm which is exactly the reason John wrote his Gospel. To preach and teach against the cults.
 
jgredline,

The Bible says the whole world has been deceived. Do you appreciate how all-encompassing that is? Even scholarly translations omit key words to accommodate a Trinitarian bias.

For example, the link you provided for the Blue Letter Bible with what is alleged to be John 1:1 in “the original written language†does not honestly reflect what is actually written.

If you compare the Greek with the transliterated English you will notice missing words.

Here is a direct transliteration of John 1:1 from Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus with the direct English rendering below,

ēn arche ēn ho logos,
In beginning was the Logos

kai ho logos ēn pros ton theon,
and the Logos was toward the theon (the god)

kai theos ēn ho logos.
and theos was the Logos


Here is the BLB version,
en arche en logos kai logos en pros theos kai logos en theos

Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus,
ēn arche ēn ho logos, kai ho logos ēn pros ton theo, kai theos ēn ho logos.

In most interlinears or translations of John 1:1, the definite article ton is almost never translated. This Greek word ton is essentially the same as ho – both are definite articles. In the second section of John 1:1, ton is placed directly before theon and is properly rendered in English as the God. In Hebrew the equivalent is the elohim. By omitting the definite article, the identity of the one true theos becomes veiled or hidden. However, when rendered correctly we have the undeniable identification the THE GOD. The Bible says there are many gods but there is only one true God who is THE God (1 Corinthians 8:5, John 17:3).

The definite article ho is also omitted three times, once in each section before the word logos. The definite article ho is the equivalent to the English definite article the. The pharse the logos distinguishes this being as separate from the theon, but this is not explain to you or anyone else because it exposes the tactics implemented to deceive people and perpetuate the false doctrine of the Trinity.

As stated above, most interlinears or translations of John 1:1, the definite article ton is almost never translated. Likewise the Greek word pros in this text is almost always rendered with instead of towards.

Interestingly, the Blue Letter Bible provides the correct definition of the word pros, you can see for yourself that the word should be rendered, towards and not with.

The Blue Letter Bible definition of 4314 pros, <--- Click Here.

"pros, a preposition…
I. with the ACCUSATIVE, to, towards, Lat. ad, denoting direction towards a thing, or position and state"

These two words in conjunction with theon constitute pros ton theon – toward THE GOD. This correctly identifies the position of the logos in relation to THE God – he faces Him or looks toward Him – this is a subordinate position identifying the son as facing THE God. He looks toward Him for ALL things including his very life and existance (Acts 13:30, 34; Romans 10:9; John 5:26). The English word God, like the Greek word theos, or the Hebrew elohim, can be used of false gods, angels, mythical deities, and so on. Jesus Christ is identified in the Bible as an elohim or theos as are all the other sons of God of which he is one. Thus the logos is an elohim or theos (God) but not THE God or ton theon. There is no indefinite article in Greek so the identity of the logos is simply stated in the terms, the logos was theos. That is why the indefinite article “a†in English must be supplied (as it is in many other cases) to properly distinguish between the two theoi in the text.

So it becomes evident that when John 1:1 is correctly translated and understood, it is a powerful and convincing piece of Biblical evidence that the logos is a theos and subordinate to THE Theos thus rendering the Trinity impotent and baseless.

In [the] beginning was the logos and the logos was towards the Theos and the logos was [a] theos.

R7-12
 
gingercat said:
Well, R7,

Noone is able to answer your #1 question. How many more questions do you have? It is time to go to another question. You gave them plenty of time. thank you.
You're right gingercat, nobody was able to develop any kind of argument or explanation for how Christ can receive revelation from God if they are the same being, as the doctrine of the Trinity demands.

Sufficient time has been given.

Question 1 has been insurmountable for the Trinitarians here. One single question has proven to be too much to overcome. Not a single Scripture was provided to address the question or defend the false teaching.

These facts show conclusively that no one here can understand how a single being can reveal knowledge to itself thus proving that the doctrine of the Trinity is nonesense - a logical absurdity.

This can be said because no one was able to defend it or show it has any validity - or even answer one question that challenged its premise.

I don't wish to offend anyone or speak inappropriately. Any heresy that has been proven false would be shouted from the mountaintops by most mainstream Christians - including those on this board. So why can we not speak boldly now when this doctrine has failed a simple test?

If I have spoken evil - bear witness of it.

The Trinity is a false doctrine based on Greek Mythology and the Babylonian Mystery and Sun Cults. It was inserted into Christianity by force of arms when Constantine hi-jacked the church in Rome in the fourth century and tried to unify the empire under one system. This action spawned The Unitarian/Trinitarian Warsthat lasted for some time before Rome became victorius. The historical evidence is overwhelming if anyone wishes to do a little research online.

All false teaching cannot withstand accurate Biblical scrutiny and must be exposed as part of the ongoing restoration of all things leading up to the return of the Messiah, the son of the Most High El.

Question 2 will follow.

R7-12
 
Same old tactic.

If you can't prove them wrong, or even answer their questions, - label them a cult!

You have no idea who is behind the slander. Instead of making sure of what you are linking to, you essentially support and spread someone else's lies and thereby commit the transgression yourself, spreading rumour and gossip.

What does the Bible say about this kind of conduct?

It could be said that everyone is in a cult - except perhaps those who have the power and money to justify persecuting someone after labelling them a cult, then they will appear victorious and claim victory over "the heretics." Sound familiar? The words cult, heretic or heresy are often used to suite the intentions of the accusers. Jesus Christ would no doubt be labeled a cult leader by today's standards and his teaching would be considered heresy.

Your post is proof of that. "A known cult." What kind of insinuating and manipulating propaganda is that?

Why not lets just deal with the concepts and texts and premises in an honest and respectful manner?

Or are you trying to achieve something else by your attacks?

R7-12
 
R7-12, I'm new to the boards and haven't read all of your posts on this thread, but it seems to be the same type of jargon I hear from Mormons and JW's all the time regarding the doctrine of the trinity. You can continue to believe that Constantine "hi-jacked" the Church by holding an ecumenical Church council and having hundreds of bishops come to an agreeance that the scriptures teach God exists as a trinity, or you can actually consider what scripture teachese without these rediculous and terribly unhistoric presuppositions of yours.

I wrote a blog on the trinity not long ago, here it is, if you'd like you can even challenge its claims!

Of all the Christian doctrines the Trinity is, in my experience, the most misunderstood and aberrantly described doctrine. The basis of the Trinity follows from two premises found in Scripture, that there is only one God, and that there are three distinct persons who are God: the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.

- There is one, and only one, God (Deut. 4:35, 39; 6:4; Isa. 43:10; 44:6-8; 2 Tim. 2:5; James 2:19).
- The person of the Father is God (Col. 1:2-3; 2 Pet. 1:17).
- The person of the Son is God (John 1:1; 5:17; 8:58; 10:30; 20:28; Phil. 2:6; Col. 2:9; Tit. 2:13; Heb. 1:8; 2 Pet.1:1).
- The person of the Holy Spirit is God (Gen. 1:2; John 14:26; Acts 5:3-4; 13:2,4; 28:25; Rom. 8:11; Eph. 4:30).
- The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinguishable persons: (Matt. 28:19; Luke 3:22; John 15:26; 16:13-15; 2 Cor. 13:14).

God is one essence and three subsistence, one what and three whos, one being and three persons. The Trinity does not state that God is one and three in the same way, but in different respects. The relation is not one being divided into three equal parts:

trinity2bd.png


Nor are they three persons added onto God's being:

trinityadded6dp.png


Nor are they three different ways of looking at God:

trinitylook9jt.png


God is three distinct persons, the beings of these persons are equal to the being of God:

trinityright16ey.png


Trinity:

trinityright22dn.png


Within the Trinity there is a functional order. The Father is superior in His role to that of the Son and Holy Spirit; He is the Source, Sender, and Planner of our salvation. The Son is the Means, or the one who accomplished the plan of salvation on the cross. The Son is known to be eternally "begotten" or "generated" from the Father, but not the other way around. The Holy Spirit is the one who applies salvation to believers. It is also important to note that these roles are eternal and essential, they did not ever come to be in these roles, but it has always been.

It is very important to note that at the Incarnation, the Son took on a human nature. In effect He became the God-man. This human nature allowed Him have the characteristics that we have. It allowed Him to be limited in knowledge, to grow in that knowledge, and to not know the time of His coming. Jesus was capable of stating that the Father is greater than Him when compared to His human nature. Keeping this fact in mind will clear up and answer a lot of Scripture that seems to teach against Jesus' being God.
Diagrams copied from Systematic Theology, Wayne Grudem, pages 253-255. Last diagram copied from Systematic Theology: Volume I, Norman Geisler, page 94.
 
Question 1:

According to the doctrine of the Trinity, God is one being in three hypostases, or persons, as Father, Son and Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ is co-equal with the Father (and therefore omniscient), if this were biblically true how would it possible for the following to occur, as it so obviously does within the Bible narrative?

For Jesus Christ to receive revelation from God? Which is then received by John from Messiah.

Revelation 1:1 says that it is the Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to him to show his servants things which must shortly take place. And he sent and signified it by his angel to His servant John.

John 5:17-30 answers this question very well

Christ is equal with God in nature, power, and authority. Verse 18 Nature,
verse 21 Power, and verse 22 in Authority.

Christ became flesh, and did the will of the Father that sent Him. This is true. This is the beauty of the God becoming flesh, and being guided by the Holy Spirit to do the will of the Father. The three working together to acheive the purpose of the One.

1 John 5:6-13

6This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

9If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

The Lord bless you.
 
R7-12 said:
Same old tactic.

If you can't prove them wrong, or even answer their questions, - label them a cult!

You have no idea who is behind the slander. Instead of making sure of what you are linking to, you essentially support and spread someone else's lies and thereby commit the transgression yourself, spreading rumour and gossip.

What does the Bible say about this kind of conduct?

It could be said that everyone is in a cult - except perhaps those who have the power and money to justify persecuting someone after labelling them a cult, then they will appear victorious and claim victory over "the heretics." Sound familiar? The words cult, heretic or heresy are often used to suite the intentions of the accusers. Jesus Christ would no doubt be labeled a cult leader by today's standards and his teaching would be considered heresy.

Your post is proof of that. "A known cult." What kind of insinuating and manipulating propaganda is that?

Why not lets just deal with the concepts and texts and premises in an honest and respectful manner?

Or are you trying to achieve something else by your attacks?

R7-12

Same old tactic taught by the Word of God. If they do not preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, let them be accursed.

If any teach another gospel other than the gospel of Jesus Christ, let them be accursed for they are a cult, not the body of Christ. If they do not see the gospel of Jesus Christ they have had their minds blinded by the god of this world.


6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9

1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; 2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Corinthians 4:1-4


.
 
Solo,

You throw out these scripture as if they have 'more' meaning directed at those that 'deny' 'trinity', than realizing that it is the 'group' that has created and perpetuated this 'trinity' that would do well to heed these scripture. I believe that I could offer the 'same' scripture to show what 'had' to be done to 'create' this 'trinity'. for neither Christ NOR His apostles EVER taught a 'trinity'. So WHO is it that REALLY refuses to follow the Gospel preached by the apostles and offered BY Christ HIMSELF? Surely you won't offer that 'I' have 'created' ANYTHING. I simply have accepted what has been stated and what has been 'revealed' to me. I have 'CREATED' nothing. I follow the Word and NO ONE else. The 'truth' is that it is the churches that teach, and those that 'follow', that have altered the gospel to 'suit their own ideas' of the Godhead.

The 'firstborn' of every 'creature' obviously means NOTHING to those that 'accept trinity'. The Son of God obviously means little either. Or the FACT that God is referred to AS THE FATHER. Now guys, look what a deceptive god you follow: for you believe that Christ IS God, but there is NOT ONE mention of 'God the Son' in the entire NT. You 'CLAIM' that 'this IS' the gospel, but can show NOT ONE PLACE where it is stated that Christ IS God.

On the other hand, you accuse me and others of being 'unsaved' or 'not knowing God' or 'lost' but here is what we follow: Christ IS the Son of God, (stated over and over again in the Word). We believe that God is the ONLY God and the Father of Jesus Christ, (stated over and over again in the Word). I believe that Christ was begotten, (created), as the Word states also. i believe that RIGHT now, Christ sits at the Right Hand of God, (again, as the Bible states).

Funny, but I have just stated that I BELIEVE in the gospel of Jesus Christ. What's even funnier, you would DENY this AS THE Gospel.

Now, let's look at what 'trins' believe. Jesus IS God. NEVER STATED in the Bible. Jesus was NOT created, totally contradictory to the words Father and Son to start with. For there to be a Son, there MUST be a Father to create him. Otherwise, your belief requires us to abandon our dictionary and understanding of 'words' in order to 're-define' what both; a Father and what a Son ARE.

You follow a 'pagan' tradition' created by one of the most 'hateful' religions known in human history. It literally took centuries to embed this doctrine into the minds and hearts of those that they literally had to torture and murder to FORCE the acceptance of. They stopped at NOTHING in order to 'stifle' the 'truth'. And to this day, this religion STILL believes that their Pope is AS powerful AS Christ. Worshipping graven images and even worshiping a WOMAN as the 'queen of heaven'. Wow, and these are THOSE that 'created' this 'trinity' that you 'choose' to follow.

It would do you well to heed the advice that I've already given on numerous occasion: Beware of 'who' and 'how' you decide to judge your 'brothers' and 'sister's IN Christ. For HOW you judge WILL be EXACTLY 'how' YOU will be judged.
 
My friend Solo,

Let me illustrate the point you appear to be either incapable of understanding or are simply unwilling to.

It may be my personal belief that many of the doctrines espoused by mainstream Christianity are heresy. That they may are false teachings, not found in the written word, not taught by Christ and are thus not part of the gospel of God - some may call them works of the Adversary.

Those who believe them, teach them and live by them are deceived, blind, living in darkness, have been turned over to a reprobate mind and will require the wrath of God to wake up.

But I realize and accept that this may be precisely how you and others view my beliefs. It goes both ways. It is understood that many people who claim adherence to the written word of God have opposing beliefs - it has always been this way in the world.

Just because you claim allegence to a system that currently is more in number, and has historically been victorious over those in the minority, by no means translates to automatically possessing the truth.

The authority I appeal to for my faith is the one true God. You appeal to a God consisting of three persons who allegedly are one being. Which one can be clearly identified in the Bible - both OT and NT?

If it comes down to the number of verses either of us can muster in support of their respective theism, then you are clearly and decisively out-numbered and therefore must concede.

So please refrain from the high-and-mighty approach where the claim is "you're wrong 'cause I say so and therefore you're a heretic."

As servants of Christ and Almighty God, we are admonished to,

"Test all things; hold fast what is good" (1 Thessalonians 5:21).

And must remember that,

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work (2 Timothy 3:16).

If disagree we must then so let it be but let's don't accuse and condemn one another, for it is written,

“Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 “For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you" (Matt. 7:1-2).

We are not to judge one another or Lord it over another for,

"There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?" (James 4:12)

And,

Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand (Romans 14:4).

Let's appeal to the written word of God as the final authority.

At least that way we may talk to one another, get to know one another, and perhaps in time, learn to love one another as we are called to do and thereby learn to fulfill the law of God - as it is written.

What are your thoughts?

R7-12
 
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